PROOF - You CAN rank down & lose SR with Positive Win Ratio

Competitive Discussion
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What I’m arguing is that It cannot tell complex things like value for example of a symmetra teleporter the statistics would show that you would only go through the teleporter but we’re not sure whether it was a was placing the good position or not or with the value of placing it in that certain position would be. Things that do not deliver stats to the AI but are known by abstract. Just like a brig boop. What would be registered is that I have booped the player for 70 damage and whether I killed him or not or booped them off the ledge but it would be difficult for the system to know if I booped him in order to save another player or any case in which I’m manipulating a situation and not performing something purely because of damage. It does not know strategy.

It does not matter if it’s a tournament or not it’s a competition. A tournament works in the same way actually. The very reason they don’t calculate these players MMR range and only award their wins with PBSR weighed against them is because if they did that in an actual competition it would be met with massive disapproval for many reasons. Predefined teams what’s the difference the point is it’s a team playing against a team that’s how every match works. The only difference is that solo queuing is predefined in the short term by random, but you are playing with a team defined by the Matchmaker regardless. If anything OWL potentially would have more of a MMR difference if calculated and potentially more unfair than the the games matchmaker and still pbsr is not weighed against them Regulations probably more or less the same as this game has rules.

Every difference about it is trivial the important part of it is the same and you should know that.

Are they really? No, do you know what particular style the average player plays? Because that style will be the average stats reflected up there weighed against me. Now can you guarantee that I play exactly like the average brig player plays? No. Being weighed by the the stats of the way an average fish swims does not account for what particular fish you are. So if the average stats were used against every fish it would the best interest of all fishes.

It is like the standard of normal that we have with people. The average person is normal sure but that’s not guarantee that some are not weirder than others and neither does being normal or weird guarantee their success in life. So long as they can make the most out of who they are they succeed.

Sure everyone gets the same opportunity, but only for what can be measured in stats. Does the system know if you’re a betters strategist? No. Does the system know that if you use your strategy to set up a situation that allowed your teammate to get a kill or perhaps save their life? No. Those are the variables that won’t be on the test and those are the variables that count for the game. And being better at strategy can make up for the fact that you do not get good stats but if the test does not test for strategy then you will always be subpar, because strategy is the only thing that’s being measured and your advantage means nothing while the advantage of others who rely on stats still counts.

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People really don’t understand that PBSR is really only for boosting smurfs out of low Elo. It’ll help average players climb a little but only if they consistently out-perform their peers.

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It doesn’t work the same way, actually. Matching random pools of players is not the same as an entering into a professional league.

Show the value you’re getting that other Brig players are not also getting.

Just as before, if you’re actually getting value here, you will be beat better opponents and climb. That’s not the situation in your case.

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Again you’re trying to argue for trivial matters while avoiding the main point. It does not matter because in the end two teams are playing in one game and the win or loss determines whether they rank up or not. These teams do switch out players occasionally. And if you want to say that random teams can give you an advantage or disadvantage there’s no guarantee that everyone that is at the same skill level one country could potentially be a lot better than others. These teams are possibly worse. Only that but in that long run this average is out this is why there’s 884 games played to get rid of this advantage or disadvantage I might have.

Strategy by use of CC which for Brig is her specialty. I’ve given you examples and posts before but all you’ve done is ignore them.

An example that I told you about was the bridge in hanamura in the wooden room 2nd point. If an enemy is going in with their team for a push I go off to the side and I boop off one of the tanks. The system will register that I booped the player for 70 damage and that’s it he did not die or fall off a ledge but he did fall off the bridge. This means that this tank now has to go all the way back up the stairs while their team is instead fighting a 5v6 instead of a 6v6 like they originally planned. In the game of OverWatch seconds can be crucial and that’s why this is a high-value play if pulled off but would pbsr take that into account? no it would require human level understanding of the game to understand situations like that. Will every brig player do this? No. If I concentrate on assisting my team to win by use of setting up situations like this that are equally effective this is my advantage and this is my advantage that would not be taken into account and though I get awarded the win I get discounted the PBSR, another player who concentrates more on healing which can be measured easily, might get equal value and he will be awarded a win plus a bonus for pbsr. My playstyle also means that there’s less healing to do because that tank isnt there for the 6v6. Meaning less healing I can get within the game time, also contributing to a lower average.

You’re right because being better at strategy would mean more wins than losses because when ratio is indicative of being a better player than the rank you are in which I have more wins than losses. The problem is pbsr.

I showed you my most recent stats that it took a win ratio of 66% to get my pbsr was slightly below average. But a 66% win ratio is not slightly below average. A 66% ratio is indicative of a climb so why isn’t my skill rating indicative of a person who’s climbing? Wouldn’t it make sense for a person who’s climbing to be a good player?

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Already adequately answered. There are nontrivial differences between a professional league and an online ladder.

Everyone else is using her kit in exactly the same way. Show how you’re getting value that other Brig players are not getting.

Don’t speculate with what-if-isms. Show the differences in your gameplay that is not being achieved by higher elo players.

Winning against better players.

15/25 is 60%–not 66%. Given the rough calculations from earlier, performing below average more often will require you to maintain a ~58% WR to continue climbing.

You are currently above 58% and you are +114 SR. I’m not sure what you’re complaining about.

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Not, you list the differences but you didn’t list why they’re adequate or why they would make a difference.

This is an assumption you cannot know that. Mine is a assumption as well but you chose to argue about this because you couldn’t explain the discrepancy between win ratio and pbsr. If you’d like we would both retract our assumptions and you find another way to argue why the win ratio shows I’m a good player and the pbsr shows I’m a bad player.

Yes but if I don’t win against better players but I still maintain a higher win ratio then that means that I should have stagnated at least not gone down 300 Sr since the time I’ve initially started. Your argument against losing primarily against bad player cannot be argued as it is an assumption as all your arguments are based off assumptions. since we are dealing with averages unless you want to argue that the Matchmaker has consistently put me up against more worse players than it has good players because that is the only way I could get enough bad players to consistently rank down while winning more games. However if you argue for this point that would mean that it’s the matchmaker’s fault and I’m pretty sure you don’t want to blame the Matchmaker.

The difference between my argument and yours is the mind has statistical precedence, the wind ratio and pbsr are not supposed to deviate in the long run that doesn’t say anything per se but it says more than an assumption ever will.

You’re right my math was wrong for some dumb reason I divided the losses by the wins.

I’m complaining because as you seen on my stats before it doesn’t matter that only 1 season of ended with I ended with higher wind ratios and sometimes climbing because eventually pbsr will always put me back down to where I was. I started off as gold because of placements in seasons later after playing about 300 games I got back to gold and still maintained a positive win ratio season by season yet I was back to 1700 regardless it doesn’t matter if I climb now pbsr.

But here’s a more official source …

A link to this post was given by a green text form user so I’m guessing at one point this guy was a mod. As you can see even they acknowledge the same thing that I am saying. And they acknowledge that both sides of the arguments existed one that wanted the acceleration and one that didn’t want stat farming. Ultimately it wasn’t because the possibility of stat farming doesn’t exist, abd there was in fact more people who did not want it.

which is why they removed it on diamonds however they kept it on bronze through platinum simply because this accelerates the progress of certain players (smurfs & the precious new smurf revenue that they chose not to fix and compromise competitive integrity for). There was a proposition to eventually cut it off after sufficient amounts of games were played in competitive but as you can see after 884 I have given you my stats and that it obviously does not cut off. However if you notice nowhere in the post does it say that the problem was ever solved, but it does acknowledge the problem exists and that’s why they took it off of diamond and above, and why it doesn’t exist on every rank to this day.

Try giving GM players, diamond players,
and master players PBSR and see how they will react. If it were indeed so accurate they should have no problem with it, but they do, because they know the flaws inherent within it.

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There was PBSR for everyone some seasons ago. Blizzard removed it because people started abusing it in games, they thought, were lost players started focusing on performing good instead of trying to win the game as a team. Thats why they removed it back then.

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Yup…. There would be Torb players with like 30% win rates who couldn’t drop SR no matter how many games they lost.

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The Ws are the value…

Focus on S23, 55% win overall -200 sr.

Pbsr was dropped for diamond and above cause they didn’t want people playing for stats - the wins were more important. (Maybe they even saw something and didn’t want people to make a fuss over it like win rate but dropping out of diamond)

Pbsr is for players to gain a little more sr if they’re stats are better than their peers. To help the above average move up faster.

Mmr is the Elo difficulty adjustment for prediction win before the match.

I feel these arguments are mixing it up because as said it’s a hybrid system.

The op is winning more than losing, so he is winning on average more than losing if average is 50%.

If MMr is working over time on average he should be facing high skilled and low skilled at the same rate. Since he is winning more than losing I would say he IS winning against higher Elo players more than losing to lower Elo players. You have to agree without pbsr this has to be true and the SR at 55% win rate should not be a -200.

So if the win average is high but still losing SR than it MUST be pbsr (which they removed at diamond+ cause they didn’t want THOSE guys to play different than the vision of HOW TO PLAY - caugh 2/2/2 caugh)

But then the pbsr MUST not be giving him the added sr on the win? But I thought mmr adds sr too…?

But when dude loses it MUST be against weaker opponents?? Well that doesn’t make sense because he wins against higher Elo folks too.

Or maybe when he loses pbsr doesn’t help negate the lost sr because that particular game his stats we’re lower than his peers…? But it’s a team game tho right?

On average who loses with high stats?

Something isn’t right, why would he lose more sr on a lost when he wins against higher Elo players?

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PBSR is more to push smurfs out of low Elo and give low Elo players a boost every time they do something cool.

Triggering PBSR really only happens to smurfs for the reason that the system is meant to prevent them from stomping.

Unfortunately it doesn’t account for people throwing games after. That’s a problem for Blizzard to fix.

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Well hold on now… if pbsr only kicks in at smurf level than on average Violence theory doesn’t hold. It was pbsr holding op back cause of low stats.

How low was OP stats to hold back like that?! Are they a brig anti smurf lol.

Again if he wins 5% more than average he IS beating more high Elo players than losing to lower. Something doesn’t explain the more lost sr or losing than lack of sr on winning.

Again for -200 (s23) and -300 overall.

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I’m not keeping up with their discussion nor do I really care.

What I know from having climbed multiple accounts from bronze/silver/gold/platinum to platinum/Diamond (and my main to Masters) is that consistent exceptional performance is what triggers PBSR to give greater SR gains.

If you’re gaining between 24-26 SR (what I expect to see Diamond+ players earn since no PBSR exists) then you’re performing effectively at your level.

If you get above 30 SR multiple times back to back, you’re consistently outperforming your peers.

If you’re losing more SR in a loss than you gain in a win, you’re being carried and not doing enough.

If they have a positive win rate with negative SR gains….? You tell me.

How’s he beating more high Elo players while playing in silver/gold? :face_with_monocle::face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Edit: there ARE varying degrees of average.

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My mind just popped. I’m not the smartest guy so you may have to explain why average is not average. And what does it even relate to?

Higher Elo relative to himself. Any std dev of mmr higher than him or equal.

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Based on the last data provided by Papa Jefe, the rank distribution was as follows:

Bronze: 8%
Silver: 21%
Gold: 32%
Platinum: 25%
Diamond: 10%
Masters: 3%
Grand Master: 1%

Based on the data I’ve provided, where is the largest concentration of players?

(I wish I had more recent/accurate data for you. I do not). :frowning:

Is he though :thinking:

I mean…. Where’s the validation that he was against more “highly skilled” players than he was with (I’ll take a screen cap of every players SR since that’s all we “the users” can verify).

More than likely they’re relatively balanced matches (based on MMR). Human error and the propensity for making mistakes is very high in the average ranks.

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IF the MMR is working correctly, sometimes there are matches of 40/60, 60/40 and most 50/50. Is it even distribution? I dunno… I assume it is.

So if he is winning 52-55% of his matches he is highly likely beating higher “skilled” players
(sorry for using ELO, I know that word has a lot of weight around here)
on average
(I know average isnt average anymore - rewriting math on this thread… ).

Using the pie chart example if you have 100 matches, lets say 33 were 50/50, 33:40/60, 33:60/40.

At 52-55% he is picking up more than leaving right?

Edit : to be -200 sr?

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I would genuinely be curious to see (for smurfs, and normal players) how often these numbers come up.

But how much do you think human error attributes to winning/losing a game? I only ask because my opinion is human decision making is everything in this game so I’m curious of your perspective.

One decision can have a ripple effect.

I’ll concede and say sure, but again, there are varying degrees of “higher skilled” players when you’re in this weird realm of inconsistency.

I mean…. It really does for the right reasons though.

I don’t follow?

He’s doing enough to exceed the 50% win rate which would suggest he’s having enough impact to sway the games in his favor. But 55% is barely noteworthy tbh.

Now if you’re saying 65%, then I might be confused. But every bit of experience I’ve gained from this game “trust me bro” (as reciepts likes to say) is that poor performance is what leads to poor SR gains.

For his sake and your sake. I hope I’m wrong :slight_smile:

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again, and like Violence… I’m not saing dude should be Plat or Diamond, we’re talking maintaining some SR… maybe even losing SOME, but -200? thats low gold to mid silver, that MMR notching - one MMR Std Dev is what 100 sr? So for winning… he is losing ALOT of SR.

I broke down the seasons because some seasons he was even 53% and gain SR, others he lost SR at 45% - which is like “good”. But to lose that much on 55% - all I’m saying is please adjust some numbers.

I’m glad you ruled out PBSR, cause thats what Myst was saying - Minor influence and you even said its for smurfs. So now the math is a little simpler.

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And I stand by this. PBSR is for Smurf’s and when you do cool shizzle.

To have a positive win rate and be down in SR is still tied to performance though.

Seems like something isn’t adding up here…. :face_with_monocle:

Haha…. Yeah….

About 8 games worth of losing….? He was playing well, lost one or two, started tilt queuing and :wave:t4: SR? Maintained enough positive win rate to rage about it?

Just as you’re making an assumption or two, I am as well.

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if only it were 8 games worth . The reality is i have 43 more games won than than i do lost, not including the amount PBSR already took away thats 1075 SR worth that had been taken away maintaining above average win ratio. As a previous user stated the expectation wasn’t that I would be a plat or a diamond but to find out that I have not at least maintained and I’ve actually lost so much SR while maintaining a positive win ratio after so many games is what I’m unhappy with.

I already linked back in a post not too long ago to why PBSR isn’t necessarily an accurate measure of skill. If it were all ranks would have it. They clearly acknowledge the same reasons that pbsr is faulty. Simple logic would state that if i am winning more than the average of my games after 884 games then on average my performance should reflect that and my pbsr should be at least average.

The reason that I started this topic is because game after game I would be doing more than other players specifically in season 26 where I dropped close to 400 Sr just being matched with terrible players, I checked the replays not only for my point of view but from other players point of views and I saw that they were in fact terrible players. Terrible players make it hard to perform well but still I wasnt that bad considering (I even had a game with Moira where i had every gold medal and still lost) and I have played ranks much higher and consistently maintained (back when my plat/diamond friend still played). Yet in season 26 I dropped from having a high of 1990 to a low of 1626 with 10 game lost and even games I was playing at the 1600 that season we’re ridiculously hard for me to win because of the people i was paired up with. Not only have I held a rank higher than 1600 many seasons before and even climbed back up to gold after to my initial placement, but the average Sr rate I lost was 36SR lost at LEAST, as if my skill was far worse than this 1600 new low. After so many seasons of getting positive win ratios with my Sr getting worse season by season making it look as if I’ve actually degraded since the first time I’ve started playing Comp. What I got sick of was my rank making it look like im getting worse when im tons better than i was when i began and always being awarded so little Sr but being taken away so much. There’s clearly something wrong, there has been ever since 50+ ratios have not been enough to indicate a climb because in anything else in this reality having above 50% means your profiting,have more, or an advantage.

OverWatch began strictly using win ratios they later introduced this system thanks to multiple accounts, to ease the issue if it was causing without cutting off their new supply of revenue. This came at the expense of competitive integrity as we clearly see the system removed for diamond and above for players who actually would take competitive seriously and would complain about it due to obvious flaws. Since then this is not been fixed competitive integrity is still compromised, and instead actually being angry about this, the OverWatch community now preaches that having more than 50% win ratio is not enough as if this was actually normal, basically accepting a broken system, while putting all the blame on the players forgetting the broken environment they play in.

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Curious.

I want to know exactly how this concern is supposed to work. How exactly does one “game” SR? Because I’d like to try it. :slight_smile: