Proof that Rank is not skill based - The smurf problem - **Video**

Competitive Discussion
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Data from old accounts holds down players and keeps them from advancing.

That’ why smurfing is out of control. It’s a huge disadvantage to start in a low rank and the video shows that in a SINGLE PLAY SESSION on three accounts placement is 1000 points different.

IT DOESN’T MATTER IF IT’S POSSIBLE TO CLIMB! What matters is that it would take me a minimum of 80-100 hours to move an account 1000 points but just buying a new account did the trick.

…and now I know I didn’t even do it perfectly right. I should have made sure I played with a plat or better partner and I would have placed plat.

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If anything, it proves that placement is crap, for sure. I do think that matchmaking is rigged to a certain extent, I just don’t think that this is a proof of it.

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Doesnt prove anything but gameplay clearly shows ure bronze.

Like what???

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I don’t understand that mentality at all, when wins are wins. You win games, you move up. Nothing about the system, if you’re winning 55%+ of all your games, stops a person from ranking up. Nothing.

Any SR, any starting point, any role, if you win you rank up.

Now does being a really bad player early on, then something sort of “clicks” and you get better sort of put a person in the hole a bit? Yes…
but it’s the same for system for every player…

people lose games, most of all at the lower ranges, being their core fundamentals are terrible. Like mind numbing terrible to a level I just assume they have not played many FPS games before or a least nothing that required active team work and taking objectives.
Just randomly running around in a battlefield game doesn’t really count.

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My friend, this video is brilliant and is 100% proofs that this STINKY matchmaker has anchor stat that keep player at ranks. I am telling you my friend that you are to be attacked by so many feral people who will refuse to believe it. They are going to try to explain this with so much bad logic.

There is one bottom line, this stinky matchmaker is to be using bad data science to estimate where you should be in this ladder and then keep you there and this include past data. The system does not work and it has never work.

Thank you for making this video and I am hoping you make more.

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Hey i will definitely watch your video when i will be home so i can react properly. I am hoping to see something interesting in the video :slight_smile:

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I don’t understand that mentality at all, when wins are wins. You win games, you move up. Nothing about the system, if you’re winning 55%+ of all your games, stops a person from ranking up. Nothing.

Any SR, any starting point, any role, if you win you rank up.

Now does being a really bad player early on, then something sort of “clicks” and you get better sort of put a person in the hole a bit? Yes…
but it’s the same for system for every player…

people lose games, most of all at the lower ranges, being their core fundamentals are terrible. Like mind numbing terrible to a level I just assume they have not played many FPS games before or a least nothing that required active team work and taking objectives.
Just randomly running around in a battlefield game doesn’t really count.

It’s hard to explain and people can’t pay attention long enough for them to understand so I usually just don’t explain. You seem to have an attention span longer than the goldfish who usually troll forums so I’ll try.

First, YOU don’t win or lose a game. Notice that 1 player missing from a game can make it near impossible to win, however even a grandmaster player can’t 1v6 against bronze if his team is basically falling off a cliff. Think this out a minute…

The amount of points they give for a win is actually dependent upon pre-existing data about the account as well. You’ll actually get less if the system pre-judges you. So if I say to you it will take you ten thousand years to rank up but you eventually will if you just play and others of your same skill just get that 10k year grind for free, do you care even slightly that it’s POSSIBLE to rank up?

It’s not the same system for every player. The system will give you less points for the same win in the same game than someone it thinks deserves to be higher rank. (based on old data)

people lose games, most of all at the lower ranges, being their core fundamentals are terrible.

Re-read this sentence and ask yourself, based on what you know about the fact that it’s way harder to carry than to throw, if it’s actually fair to have to play with players of a lower skill than you. (assuming as a casual you stopped halfway during a season placement or flubbed a few games because you had to stop to go to work etc and therefore gave the system a false reading)

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Plays new account, places it an insignificant amount above other account
“The system is broken.”

Yeah, of course your new account didn’t place you below 1500, it’s almost impossible. Keep playing on the new account and you’ll get right back down there in no time.

Data from old accounts does not hold down players and prevent them from advancing, it keeps players where they belong while they belong there. It takes time to climb, it takes time to fall. If two accounts are played by the same person but on different roles (prior to Role Queue) for disproportionate durations then they’ll have notably different stats.

I have two accounts at basically the exact same rank +/- 200 SR depending on the day, and on the same characters they each have completely different stats. The difference is that I play them under different conditions. One of them is my solo-queue account that I actually fully apply myself to - no grouping, no music, my full attention: the other is a chill account that I play with friends across multiple ranks and when I just want to play while chilling out with some music.

A fundamental philosophy in science; Ceteris paribus, all else equal. If any extra variable changes, no matter how seemingly insignificant, it could result in drastically different results.

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Plays new account, places it an insignificant amount above other account
“The system is broken.”

1000 points is not insignificant. I was 1000 points apart on two roles.

Yeah, of course your new account didn’t place you below 1500, it’s almost impossible . Keep playing on the new account and you’ll get right back down there in no time.

No, actually the bronze account is my girlfiends and the mid silver account is an account that almost never plays ranked without the bronze account. (get’s consistently dragged down by a stoner player and has old garbage data)

Data from old accounts does not hold down players and prevent them from advancing, it keeps players where they belong while they belong there.

Wrong again. If a player plays under the conditions I just mentioned, where they almost always have an anchor, and then the system doesn’t judge the individual but the outcome of the team, the system doesn’t know where that person belongs and makes them play with anchors forever once they are set at a low rank.

A fundamental philosophy in science; Ceteris paribus, all else equal. If any extra variable changes, no matter how seemingly insignificant, it could result in drastically different results.

Are you trying to make my point for me? If all else is equal is the point and in science the amount of trouble it takes to make all-things-equal shows how non-real-world science, which doesn’t include complexity, really is. An “all else equal” assumption is only really useful to pick out very hyper-specific unitary simple thing under ultra controlled circumstances.

For the rest there’s probability, statistics and chaos. …and if you understand how those work then you should know that trying pick an individual’s skill out a non-persistent random team that is 5 times the size of the actual effect you’re looking for requires very specialized work-arounds because anything even slightly brute force would require sample sizes in the tens of thousands of games.

Those special measures can go TERRIBLY wrong and the bayesian sort of theory they are using need to be reset often because of the fact that:

All things are NOWHERE IN THE SAME GALAXY as “equal.”

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lmao…
just like that other dude (MHz) you have no idea what you are talking about…
How is that “proof”?
Everybody who understands the ranking system knows the flaws of initial placements, but its an issue you have to face eventually.

  • If you place everybody in bronze you’ll predominantly trash games in lower ranks (ppl rage)
  • same for the top of the ladder as starting point
  • if you place them in mid ranks its the shortest route overall and distributes the trash games throughout the ladder…
    Why don’t they just reset it every season? Cause its unreasonable to believe someone was able to climb (in skill) past two ranks (e.g. bronze to gold) within 5 previously 10 games.
    Btw. also the reason they used a soft reset, there simply is no perfect solution which is why you settle for the least trash one.

Now to everyone asking for for individual stats blablabla you don’t understand this game… its not about how much damage you dealt or how much healing you provided. If you can win by pushing the payload without securing a single kill because everybody else is busy fighting each other you’ve won on your own.

The only argument you could possibly make about stats is a minimum requirement for each rank yet the great diversity of heroes and possible playstyles work against this.

Before you claim stuff, try to debunk it. Actually try.

PS: Its a sorting algorithm, like any kind of sorting you require time and comparisons. They simply try to minimize the damage done by new accounts by placing them slightly above or below average unless your stats are aimbot like (well that’s a clear hint someone might be OP). In that case you’ll win most matches in mid ranks anyway unless you are staring at the wall the entire match

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People will still want smurfs and dont want MMR reset since they fear that their positive anchor stats wont keep them in diamond anymore.

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I definitely disagree with some things you said in video but as i am able to watch it only on tiny mobile screen i will comment later about things i disaggre as i could miss something but i have question for you now.

Can you actualy record clip where you will show your last two comp seasons rank and stats on these accounts you played, role beta included too please.

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YES you do… It’s the entire back bone of all team team sports or team games of any nature. Other wise it’s acting like everything it just out of the player’s control.
So losses are someone else’s fault? Wins are someone else’s doing or the other team letting it happen.

Now do good game happen all the time? No. Do better players rise over time, yes. Does this game have a VERY clear hierarchy of skill from tier to tier? Yes, clearly yes.

Keep in mind in most cases “ranking up” is like getting out of the gutter level of SR ranges. We are not talking about the Charles Barkley hall of fame level career but no ring level of “Muh team”. We are talking about getting out of SR ranges where people some how manage to shoot and hit the floor in fights.

In most cases the simply are not of a lower skill set. The player in question just doesn’t accept that it’s harder to rank up than hold rank. Being ranking up requires impact sort of play.

and I’m sure to a GM as a meh 3k player I look/play bad but I’m at least consistent in being +1 over average. The silver/gold etc that is 60% of the player base? They stand still in the middle of the street. They run in straight lines.

This idea that the system is holding them back is ludicrous.

No, people get less being they are terrible at the game but “win” here or there. So performance SR is like “Nah… ya need to have more impact”.

I get this is snarky… but I don’t think lower SR players who claim to be trapped by the system truly grasp how poor their understanding of how to correctly play this game is over all.
I’ve turned golds into meh 3k player as just a meh 3k player myself, by doing nothing more than hammer them about fundamentals in QP. That’s it… They then went back into comp, solo and ranked right up and out of gold into diamond.

It’s not the system. It’s that players are mostly terrible at Overwatch.

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I think people need to quit raging at others if the game isnt going so well and think about their own performance. That truely is the best advice anyone can give you. Poor peoply actually trying to write walls of text & make videos to try and go the “easy” way.

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just like that other dude (MHz) you have no idea what you are talking about…
How is that “proof”?

Actually I’m being hyperbolic for the clicks. It’s supposed to be an entertaining video.

Everybody who understands the ranking system knows the flaws of initial placements, but its an issue you have to face eventually.

First, limiting it to “everyone who understands” is an unfair tiny sample to talk about. But yes you’re right, but it’s not an unsolvable problem. More individual metrics could be used, it would just take way more work than they are willing to put the money into.

Why don’t they just reset it every season? Cause its unreasonable to believe someone was able to climb (in skill) past two ranks (e.g. bronze to gold) within 5 previously 10 games.
Btw. also the reason they used a soft reset, there simply is no perfect solution which is why you settle for the least trash one.

You’re mostly right, actually but there are special circumstances people have that can cause them to fall in rank for reasons that have nothing to do with skill and it causes a feedback loop. They haven’t done enough to fix that.

Now to everyone asking for for individual stats blablabla you don’t understand this game… its not about how much damage you dealt or how much healing you provided. If you can win by pushing the payload without securing a single kill because everybody else is busy fighting each other you’ve won on your own.

Sorry, that’s just a straw man. Anyone who actually understands anything about this sort of system (now I’m doing it) would know that such simple metrics are worthless on their own too.

However, hey already have a stub of the code needed to do it right found in the play of the game monitor. It’s crap but the point is that you have to look at how various metrics like kills on point and timing of those kills or heals relate to things like extra tije on the payload or point. you have t do more than just identify raw number. Those things are helpful but only the first step.

The issue is budgeting and the fact that people can see new skins and feel good about them and spend money on them. They can’t see changes to rank that are subtle and difficult and take way more time and effort than adding a new skin etc. That’s why reworking of background systems always gets screwed in budgeting meetings.

The people holding the purse strings think about quarterly earnings and never about the long term impact of decisions like those on the health and longevity of the product. (retired software engineer here)

Before you claim stuff, try to debunk it. Actually try.

It’s hard to understand but there’s a job of promoting and drawing eyes to a problem that requires some hyperbole and other tactics. I dislike having to engage in those tactics but it’s reality and I have to conform to reality.

So yes, I know it’s a sorting algorithm and unless you’re a software engineer too I probably understand the problems a bit better than you. My issue is that they need to increase the speed of estimation to accommodate casual players that make up their base.

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Without wasting too much time on this topic, kill groups and improve MQ.
Yet it goes against this:

Did you notice the issue?

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Wait. So people ai silver gets ‘held back’ by smurf, implying they’re supposed to be higher, but also lose because there are ‘smurfs’ of those higher ranks they’re supposed to be? Aren’t you basically disproving yourself.

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Xion said:

Can you actualy record clip where you will show your last two comp seasons rank and stats on these accounts you played, role beta included too please.

I can tell you these are accounts from the very first day OW came out and they placed almost exactly where they were last season.

I’ll make another video fairly soon if enough people enjoyed the first.

DeadLamb Said:

YES you do… It’s the entire back bone of all team team sports or team games of any nature. Other wise it’s acting like everything it just out of the player’s control.
So losses are someone else’s fault? Wins are someone else’s doing or the other team letting it happen.

No, my point is that it’s not all by yourself and you’re just being reactionary and acting like it’s all up to you when you know better. You know a single leaver loses a game. Do you try to “up your game” after losing that match from the leaver because you know it was all up to you and you just need to “git gud?” No, that’s braindead and you’re not braindead.

Do better players rise over time, yes.

Depends on the “over time” my whole point is about the tie required to overcome bad circumstances. It was my choice to always play with my girlfriend for years and the fact that she never took it serious enough. That’s sorta my fault but we should be able to throw away old data and start over. That’s my second point.

This idea that the system is holding them back is ludicrous.

Okay actually I’m arguing for exceptions like it’s the rule. I’ll give you that. It’s not the majority, but it’s a lot of people and it matters a lot to them.

No, people get less being they are terrible at the game but “win” here or there. So performance SR is like “Nah… ya need to have more impact”.

No that’s just simply not true. I’ve played with other friends around the same skill level to test things and have seen them get double the xp being in the same role getting less on every personal metric. They are definitely using probabilistic data to limit the mobility of players they think their system knows well. It’s part of a “confidence” level. It’s not real personal performance, it’s the over tie data that is too mixed with other factors to reflect anything real, which they are relying on, that determines the additional points.

It’s not real, per-game personal impact. Should be, but isn’t.

It’s not the system. It’s that players are mostly terrible at Overwatch.

TBH it’s both. The problem is that once you get sorted in with the bad players it takes a million games to crawl out of their throws. You actually can get some stable play once your mid gold and above. Before that however, the games are so random from smurfing and throwers that it’s ridiculous.

Did you see the game where I was tanking on the bronze account and had 60 elims… it’s hilarious how hard you can carry at that level sometimes, but in the end, after five straight wins of absolute crushing domination, I got ranked below 800.

Do you have any idea the number of hours you have to put in to get an account from 800 to 2000? It’s way WAAAY longer than from 2000 to 3000 if you’re a play player.

That’s a big issue for me and truthfully I just want to keep my skins and reset my data. …and I enjoyed making a stupid video I hope other people laugh at.

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You so delusional boi

A GM can wreck Bronzies in a 1v6. Just look at Dafran’s climb from unranked to GM with Soldier only. Nvm Dafran (actual top 1 peak ranked Soldier), even I as a Diamond scrub can still 1v6 an unranked/Bronze game, even if my team is falling off out of spawn. If you’re at a certain level, there’s a reason for it. Doesn’t mean you deserve the rank, but climbing out of it should be possible if you’re actually higher skilled. Even a Diamond in Gold games can rolfstomp people.

The problem with people that insist that they’re being held back by external factors like teammates and smurfs fail to realize that; you SHOULD be rolfstomping people if you actually belong higher. Even if you lose games, you’ll still win more than half your games. That’s what climbing is, by being better than your current rank. Someone who claims that he belongs in Diamond while getting stuck at Plat simply isn’t good enough to be a carry factor. Maintaining a rank and climbing are NOT the same. You can be good enough to not feed and wait for someone to carry you, versus you actually doing the carry. This applies to every single role, not just DPS.

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been saying this for ages, welfare for t500, always at the top, never have to earn it, just given it over and over and over.

You can see why people buy new accounts, its a money making ploy by BLIZZ, you think it will help, you want it to help, you want to get up there. back down you go.

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