DPS changed from 60/120/180 to 60/120/160 (maybe 150).
As it stands right now, Sym has to play with her tanks to be able to use her primary fire. She gets absolutely melted if your tanks play passively or aren’t running Rein/Zarya.
This simple adjustment makes her less of a glass cannon and allows her to play safer. The trade off is lower DPS so she isn’t a monster. I just don’t want to be reduced to an orb-spam bot because my tanks want to play Roadhog and Ball…
But this just mystifies me. Why would you ask for Sym to have even less damage? As it stands, she’s one of the least damaging DPS, which is her primary shortcoming right now. It’d be like asking for Bastion to have a bigger hitbox and take longer to transition to and from sentry mode.
Besides that part, 60/120/160 doesn’t work in her theme since it’s an uneven escalation and the final result isn’t an integer of 3. 150 is, but again, even less damage? There’s very few damage characters that do less damage per second than her to begin with, and those heroes tend to work on high-alpha or have the game’s best mobility.
She is one of the least-damaging characters in the role. Every single hero character has some combination of better damage, range, precision, burst, and self-sustain. I don’t get this myth that even the people that play the hero start to buy into, but Sym isn’t and never was a monster, nor can she be unless you literally double her damage. Even then, it’s hard in this very bursty damage environment for her to actualize her level-3 beam damage, which is probably makes for a very good argument as to why she should have her damage massively upped.
For comparison, S76 starts off with 180 dps (Sym’s max), while having burst on command (Sym needs to stop firing primary and spend time charging) and has self-sustain on a AOE healing POD and has more than double her range plus the ability to headshot with crit. Why isn’t he a monster?
Also it’s worth repeating - in games, if you have to ramp up damage, it must top off higher than average. That’s the tradeoff for doing less damage at first. It’s why charged attacks do more damage than quicker attacks. If Sym has to keep the 3-levels of primary fire, it does need to top off higher, not lower, than other DPS levels. You ask for 60/120/160, I say it should either be 120/150/180 (so less handicap in the beginning) or 120/180/240 to actually get her damage in-line with her ramp-up combat style.
Symm has a shorter range than Zarya for a reason - otherwise they are doing pretty much the same as their primary. Symm is meant to do other stuff and not rely totally on her beam. The beam length increase is not a good idea.
People suffering from TBI isn’t a good reason. Sure it’s a reason, but not a good one.
What does this mean, precisely? That the attacks are too similar? Why do we not have this conversation about Ashe And Cassidy, then? Probably because the heroes overall do different things, even if their primary attacks are similar.
And what is that? Because while other heroes do actually have well-defined niches, Sym doesn’t. People utilize her one cooldown to bypass bad chokes, but that’s one cooldown and the rest of her kit doesn’t actually do anything. And the vaunted map types she’s supposedly good in are going away, so again, what is her niche? Best I could find for a real niche is defending a point in overtime, as that’s the only time her kit rises to a level of usefulness that other heroes take for granted for the entire rest of the match.
Other DPS heroes all get to rely on their primary/secondary fire to do the majority of the work in a match, since again, the nature of cooldowns is that they’re not actually usable on a frequent basis. Primary/secondary fire is also the main way any given hero interacts with the game et el, so why should Sym be singled out for the dubious honor of not being playable in the same way that literally every other hero gets to do?
The beam length increase is less than the least they can do. Her excessively short range, low damage, no sustain, and terrible mobility is just something that has no place in the game. The shorter-range heroes do massively more damage at all stages of a fight with better mobility and self-sustain, and the longer-range heroes do massively more damage at all stages of a fight with better utility. The simple sad fact is that she does NOT have the sort of extreme damage or mobility (Reaper and Tracer respectively) to warrant short-range. Her range ought to be upped to 18 or 21m, roughly the same distance most other heroes in the roster get to use.
Tbh, her performance at the current range it’s fine. I would rather consider better secondary attack system. Faster travel time and bypass barriers. Could be a start, maybe less charging time also.
Her beam at that particular range it’s good enough considering the time it stays that way and can be “charged/recharged” on barriers. That kind of utility it’s amazing, just needs her secondary do what done in the past, pass through barriers.
Making her effectively almost 0 damage downtime, because wouldn’t need to reload in situations against barriers. Effectively buffing herself, recovering ammo and dealing damage through barriers.
Messing with her range would make it “too great” in an aspect the she already can easily dominate if her team enables her.
Just because she doesn’t work well in particular META doesn’t mean that she isn’t strong in situations that favors her. Changing aspects that could “impact it even more” could be bad. While enabling her secondary passing through barriers and be faster could improve her ability at medium/long range also.
Because many Sym players have gaslighted themselves with the idea that any Sym buffs need to come with drawbacks because otherwise the Forums DPS Overlords wont support it.
Because 180 DPS is very good. It’s an easily aimed straight beam that gains ammo when shooting shields. She also has high ammo count.
Sym has a lot of DPS potential which is why she has limited range, low survivability and requires charging her beam.
You can’t look at the figures alone and say “wow she does less damage than x so she must be worse” because there’s a lot more that factors into damage potential. Like her turrets, for example.
Soldier has much less ammo and harder to aim weapon. His damage is nowhere near as consistent as Sym when she has her higher charge.
You simply can not buff Sym without compensation nerfs. She is a very poorly designed hero and can easily break the game if mismanaged. If the damage nerf is too much, it can be readjusted.
HOWEVER it’s far better to overnerf rather than overbuff. Nobody will complain if she is undertuned and everyone will complained if she is overtuned.
This is false. She’s competitive with all other damage-role heroes. Certainly higher than Doomfist, Tracer, and Widowmaker and typically competes with other heroes like Genji, Cassidy, Reaper and Soldier.
This is false.
This is also false, bordering on hyperbole.
Factor in reload times, factor in accuracy.
Symmetra is also comparable because she also has three sentries to supplement her damage output, a fact that repeatedly ignored.
It does.
This would be game breaking.
Symmetra and Zarya do different things too. Not a convincing argument.
False.
False.
Symmetra and Torbjorn are different. Same with Bastion. This argument doesn’t work when you’re making more comparisons with heroes that aren’t the normal infantry/flanker/artillery-type.
This is false, and hyperbolic. Symmetra is not the only one like this.
Hyperbole.
Same with Symmetra.
False.
Because she isn’t Reaper or Tracer, so stop comparing her to such.
No, it doesn’t.
Would require reducing the damage significantly if you’re looking for faster travel times and barrier piercing. This would also mean less charge time too.
She would need it.
Many players think that Symmetra should be liken and compared to Zarya or Tracer, when neither is comparable. Symmetra should be compared to Torbjorn, which not a single argument for Symmetra has ever attempted. Maybe if they did, they might’ve gotten somewhere.
Blizzard isn’t going to change Symmetra to fit into a mold they don’t want her to be in. So you can complain as much as you like about how little Symmetra resembles Zarya instead of delivering actual feedback in attempting to streamline her abilities or consider possible decreases in damage. Instead of talking about what Blizzard should be doing.
Correct. Also add in the fact that Sentries offer a stacking slow of up to 60%
Correct.
Ehhh… they actually kinda balance out in terms of consistency. Symmetra’s beam may be more accurate than Soldier’s, but because of the charge time and the sentry’s lack of durability (or removal), it tends to be fairly balanced when considered.
That said, there’s more “momentum” once she reaches level three and can more readily maintain that charge as long as there are targets nearby (or barriers to recharge on).
Partially true when it comes to damage and compensation. Like Bastion, her damage hits into certain extremes that require specificity that other heroes typically don’t share. Torbjorn is in a similar position. Reducing those extremes could “normalize” her into a more flexibility-style builder, but the question is whether players and Blizzard would be willing to make those adjustments.
It is fairly clear that Symmetra will get some examination in OW2, but I’m not entirely sure the playerbase will be happy about what they may change about her.
Ehhh… complaints will be pretty loud regardless, I think.
180 DPS is very good when at 30m range with falloff afterwards, instantly, with access to both headshots and instant supplementary burst. While having a healing field on low cooldown and a literal auto-aim ultimate.
180 DPS is a joke when its hard range is 12m, starts at 60 dps and only gets to 180 after twice the time other dps heroes take to kill someone, with no access to headshots or supplementary damage. While having 0 survivability to live through those massive delays and a zero damage ultimate.
Ranulf ignores the gameplay experience and just wants to describe kits. If you want to talk about stats alone…Sym’s max DPS potential is 300 with turrets and fully charged beam.
Everyone knows Sym’s beam melts - that’s why she was given a ramp up.
Unless I’m playing Rein, Sym has always had great difficulty eliminating me, and even a pocketed rein which always happens is unkillable by sym, she’s a joke.
Sym has no damage ultimate. Yet you fail to account for that.
Soldier has a MUCH higher ratio of effective damage to ammo spent. Ammo numbers alone are entirely meaningless if you dont pay attention to how much damage you are dealing per ammo.
That is completely false. Symmetra cant even exists on the beam’s range without exploding into confetti, there is nothing consistent about her beam at all. Soldier is instantly more consistent by the fact that he is a 30m range hitscan with instant damage.
She had 210 max damage beam and 140 damage orbs and 4s downtime TP and she wasnt broken. You are literally delusional.
Very poorly? Yes. But not the way DF is, where he cant be strong or else he trivializes the game. She is poorly designed in all the ways that make her nearly unusable as a dps hero.
There is no real way to overbuff Symmetra at all. At most you can make her the glass cannon she is allegedly meant to be, but her issues are from a core mechanical ones and will always make her the easier to counterplay and counterpick hero in the game.
This is what I don’t understand. When has Sym ever broken the game. She was meta for like 9 days and then nerfed. She has been mediocre for most of OW1 lifespan and often needing her whole team to enable her.
Her beam range and dps numbers are fine as they are imo.
I always thought landing a successful secondary fire with Sym should charge up her primary fire by 1 level. And her secondary fire could work with a better projectile speed and maybe a faster charge.
This would make her more consistent at range and rewarding her aim, the same way Zarya is rewarded with higher damage by blocking damage with her bubbles.
Actually I am ignoring Yin. Nothing they say is every worth anything.
Ah yes I knew the magical number 300 was going to come up.
You know that number is a fictional scenario right? That doesnt happen in real matches ever, right?
When all sentries are on someone, they or Sym will die before the beam is anywhere near charged.
When the beam is charged to max, trying to set up sentries will instantly decharge the beam into stage 2.
‘‘300 damage Sym’’ is not real. Its like saying that Reaper has 1000 dps if you do a 6-man Blossom. Its like saying that Genji has a oneshot combo if you hit everything perfectly.
In realistic scenarios this magical 300 dps doesnt happen.
Funny enough you discredit anything that disproves your point by saying we are just talking stats. And yet here you are literally talking about an ideal, near impossible scenario to say Sym is actually a super high damage hero.
Maybe not, her secondary isn’t exactly that powerful as you think. While the ability of bypass barriers can be amazing several heroes can be way more lethal than that.
Can’t crit, that means capped up 120(fully charged) while without it has 60. Her shots are really slow already. Slightly adjust the travel time or charge time or maybe both wouldn’t make it broken. When other heroes does way more impact than that. While the trait of piercing barriers could be strong. She already have enough counters.
She could force certain heroes also be played to counterbalance her. Like any META already does. I’m not saying about drastic projectile speed and charge time, just slight adjust. Like instead of 1 second be something like 0.75-0.85 on charging time and projectile speed instead of 25 be like 30.
Wouldn’t be that hard to avoid anyways, even more easier as the distance gets higher. Even pharah’s rocket are faster than that
