Here’s a thought, they could change it so it stuns the enemy for a brief period of time (maybe .5 seconds)
This was not a burn. This was cremation. 
2 Likes
For some reason it reminds me of Chuck Norris jokes.
Chuck Norris heard, that nothing can kill him. So he found nothing and killed it first.
2 Likes
That new cree flashbang is really stupid made. Every time I kill someone with it, I text “Skill-based” to forfeit my sins.
1 Like
Cassidy is in no way a weak character. He is it one of, if not THE top dps heroes in OW2 atm.
First, yes it was a huge amount of power. To much in fact. No hero should be that untouchable.
Second, the new grenade is actually pretty close. Better in certain cases. Against most dps or healers it is pretty much a free kill. It can also kill around corners. And in some case it will auto target and land on shots flashbang would have missed. So, yes is it a bit weaker than flashbang, but it is still an overwhelmingly powerful ability. Both abilities make him largely untouchable in close range for the vast majority of heroes.
Back up and really think about that. Who can do better at long range? Widow, sure. Soldier, yah. Ashe, not really. She has almost the same fall off as he does and a MUCH slower fire rate and reload. They are pretty neck and neck at range. Any projectile hero? Not really. At that range reliably landing shots will cost more damage than the fall off. So, there are a couple heroes that can out perform him at range. But the MAJORITY of the roster can’t. That still puts him in a pretty good spot.
This is not true. The grenade and primary do not effect each other. You can shoot at the same time you thrown it. And you only have to hit 1 body shot to secure a kill on almost all of the non-tank roster. That weights the advantage so far to Cassidy that it is as close to a guaranteed win as you can get.
They aren’t. They do less damage and are orders of magnitude harder to hit with.
That is true.
I agree. If we are talk general state: Sym is probably the worst, Junk is a VERY close 2nd. Torb is a fair amount better than either of them, but still pretty lackluster when compared to other heroes.
I think that depends on what you are using it for. For kills it is not super reliable, but than again healers shouldn’t have super reliable kill abilities. Most of the time damage orb serves one of two purposes. 1) Stay back/chase off flankers. 2) Ult charge for Moira. For either or those it is pretty decent. But in general, I agree with what I think your premise is. Moira orbs really aren’t remotely the problem people make them out to be.
It’s high damage so he still retains his danger-area around him without having a frustrating CC-aspect to it.
Just stay out of his range like you do now in OW1. Besides, it’s more of a death sentence to get stunned in OW1 than to get stickied in OW2.
Its a marginal reduction on frustration. Its annoying dying as much from someone shooting you or using a stun to pull it off. I don’t care which manner. Dead is dead and it means a trip back to spawn regardless of how it occurred.
The only less frustration lost is how you can’t have abilities canceled out. Though being dead cancels abilities just the same. Its largest benefit to tanks who can’t have stuff like breather interrupted, canceled charge or shatter, etc. Facing a tank off against McCree is far less annoying now, but largely because tanks also sort of got very good buffs. 30% armor means his burst dmg is now less effective.
Not really. Getting stun and FTH was in 95% instant death for almost everyone (tanks could live without follow up) and you couldn’t do anything about it beside staying out of Flashbang range entirely. Splash range was too big and you barely could miss with it. New homing grenade is also very easy to hit but it’s far less frustrating because:
-
like you said, it doesn’t interrupt ults and abilities. Massive for Roadhog for example, you can’t interrupt his healing so he will live most of the time
-
it explodes after one second which is massive nerf. You can kill Cass in that time, meaning you can at least trade kill instead being dead for nothing
-
since it explodes with delay, Tracer, Reaper, Moira and tanks like Zarya, Orisa or Hog can use their abilities to negate damage reactively, not proactively. You can simply negate it’s value and not try to dodge it before it lands
-
Genji can deflect it 100% of the time. Splash range was big enough to throw it above or side to him and he couldn’t do anything about it. Same with Rein shield, you could throw it above shield, now it’s not the case
-
it deals 130 damage which means 200hp hero will die to bodyshot. It’s way better than Flashbang + FTH, because it was around 300 dmg, which means no healing would save you. Now even the slightest healing of your supports (even Lucio aura) will make you live through that.
Overall it’s still a strong 1vs1 ability, but it’s not nearly as powerful as Flashbang, because some heroes have easy counter to it + it doesn’t prevent death of Cass if he gets dove by someone. Now it’s a trade or with slight healing not even a kill.
1 Like
I really wanna know your source here, i dont see him getting much value anywhere when i see him, unless whoever is playing him is a hitscan god and even then they would prolly do better on the other hitscan options.
No dps hero should be that untouchable, depending on their kit… (See Reaper, hes pretty darn untouchable on Wraith Form for example, heh, see what i did there?) Flash though did have its weaknesses namely a good defense matrix/barrier and it was still possible for many heroes to just dodge it like Reaper or Tracer as well .
And i dont think it even is pretty close no, cuz i also dont see really when it would even be better save for incredbly fringe scenarios (like a Orisa on fortify) or that tiny bit more tracking it gets since you cant forget that Flashbang also had a explosion radius for its effect so you had a pretty darn forgiving range to hit it too.
Those that have to play close to Cassidy have ways to deflect it/phase it or they can simply kill him in the time it takes to detonate since it doesnt stop you at all from moving/shooting its a pretty far cry from largely untouchable, know a pretty similiar Hero that can has an ability that does 125 damage that is also pretty easy to hit on close range and also comes with a knockback and 4 less seconds of cooldown?
Soldier and his Helix from close range are just a tiny bit harder to hit while doing instant damage and knocking some1 away from the explosion and he can use it from multiple ranges… and while i said before you cant compare abilties in a vacuum like that, these two characters play a lot similiar to eachother so you can see how those two abilities compare more fairly.
Soldier has pretty similiar range, he actually does more damage per second but less burst, Ashe yea really, she might not do as much DPS as either of them but because of breakpoints she is more threatening to squishys from a much longer range than those two,
And yea only projectile hero that is better at long range arguably is Hanzo cuz a similiar reason to Ashe, his damage is high enough to be threatening even though you cant aim with him consistently really past medium range.
That i will give, it does not actually have much of a impact in DPS if u use it right after shooting but i’m pretty sure theres at least a tiny amount of animation you have to go through before shooting if you hadnt shot before thats a net loss of dps (just a tiny bit)
But really it just takes a long time to detonate so you cant really reliably play on the ranges you would use it, its just a crutch if you cant aim really or need that tiny bit extra BURST to get through healing it is quite a far cry from a auto win, i’ve lost count on how many Cassidys ive beat with Reaper that stuck me and just died.
I woulndt go as far as to say “orders of magnitude” not from the ranges Cass’s nade can be used , no ,its pretty darn easy to hit if not basically guaranteed just the same way Cass’s is and yea, they do what 11 less damage? but he has two on a 8s cooldown and can use them to both knock himself and opponents back/up so i’d say its a waaay better ability than Cassidys both in fun and strenght.
1 Like
The interesting thing about Fan the Hammer + Stun is it many times brought out some very punishable behavior and lots of mistakes.
For one, you needed to land 4 shots of 6 with FtH spam. Which meant if you did not full reload before hand you couldn’t land the kill. If you do go for FtH its RNG on your survival unless you were super close meaning McCree likely burned roll to get in close or by doing that he pretty much used stun, roll, fth, and was stuck in a reload period after fth for 2sec of doing nothing.
Perfect time for a revenge kill. Now, you can get a kill off 1 shot, no fth needed, and nade tracking. In many ways its easier to kill 200hp heroes and less resource consumption. Usually, a person can land one shot, but they might actually fail at doing that.
All in all, they managed to somehow retain his explodeyness on people in exchange from the stun.
Totally why his is in more games than not. Totally why people switch to him when losing and start doing better. He is absolutely getting value.
Let’s bottom line this:
At long range there are only 2 heroes that can effectively and reliably out perform him.
At medium range he also wins against most heroes
At close range he is basically uncontestable by any hero other than a tank. And he does better against tanks than most heroes.
The way the maps are set and the encounters happen corners and flank paths reduce the long range value making most encounters medium and close range. The proliferation of flank routes allow him to get into close range VERY often.
If you can’t get value on the a hero that is one of the strongest at medium range and arguably THE strongest at close range in the current game you are failing horribly.
I have to challenge you here. This has been a common refrain for people trying to defend Flash. Possible to win does not equate to a weakness. In all of those situations it is FAR easier to hit with flash than it is to avoid flash. So, while some heroes like Tracer or Reaper have the ability to avoid the shot, it takes more skill to avoid it that land it. (Incidentally the fact that it is easier to land on slower characters and so it is often better to just use it on them is another reason why it was never a ‘mobility counter’ and the same is currently true for Magnetic Grenade.)
Not really fringe scenarios. Flash absolutely had a radius allowing it to hit around corners. But it didn’t have the damage to kill around corners. There will be relatively common moments where Magnetic Grenade will secure kills that Flash would not. Don’t get me wrong, it is not as powerful as flash. But it is really not that far behind.
We are back to basically the same flawed argument people have made about flash for years. Possible to win does not mean fair chance to win.
Magnetic Grenade + 1 body shot requires massively less skill than the attacking hero requires to kill Cassidy in the same window. At the same skill level Cassidy will come out on top the VAST majority of times. To the point that it is foolish to attack him.
Soldier and his helix are a problem as well. There is a reason he is still pretty dominant even after the nerfs. And yes, you can compare the heroes fairly well. Soldier is most effective at a bit longer range than Cassidy. And while Soldier is in no way weak at close range, he is weaker than Cassidy. The difference is Helix has a larger effective range while being harder to hit with than Magnetic Grenade. The ability are both quite powerful. But they track with the general differences of the heroes. Soldier gets more value at longer range, but when you get into a certain distance the advantage switches to Cassidy.
Cassidy falloff: 20 to 40m
Ashe falloff: 30 to 50m
Cassidy damage before falloff: 70 damage per shot, 2 shots per second, 140 dps, 3 shots to kill heroes with 200 HP.
Ashe damage before falloff: 75 damage per shot, 1.54 shots per second, 115.5 dps, 3 shots to kill 200 hp target.
Their damage before fall off favors Cassidy. Both have the same number of shots to kill a 200hp target. Cassidy shoots faster reducing chance of healing or time to get out of line of sight. Cassidy does more dps to counter any healing. Favors Cassidy.
Cassidy damage at max range: 21 damage, 2 shots per second, 42 dps.
Ashe damage at max range: 22.5 damage, 1.54 shots per second, 34.65 dps.
Their damage at long range is pretty comparable per shot, so break points is not actually a factor. But fire rate is better on Cassidy making him more threatening.
The difference in fall of range means there is a 10m window where Cassidy’s damage goes down faster than hers. But he starts with and ends with a higher value. So, you can map a VERY small window where she can out damage him. But that is a really small window. Reliably being in that range window is not going to be a thing. So, no she does not really out perform him.
The problem with Hanzo is that outside a relatively close range landing shots reliably is not really a thing, you just can’t reasonably predict movement to account for travel time. Don’t get me wrong, the spam hoping for 1 shots is something that needs changed. I don’t think it feels good on Hanzo to just spam and hope because there is no way to reliably land the shots. And it feels crappy to get hit by one of those stray arrows and just die. But the reliability not being there on Hanzo means that in most cases Cassidy will out perform him.
I tried to recreate that on the training range. I don’t know that there is actually a delay there. I think the animation just make it look like it is. If it is there it is negligible. And you can still see the target, shoot>grenade as virtually instant combo and you have a kill. Then roll behind cover/tank/etc.
Hang out in those ranges? No. Move in kill and move out? Yes. Kill anyone who tries to dive on you? Yes. Flank for a quick kill and then retreat? Yes.
A big part of his grenade is just forcing every to try and contest him at medium ranges, where he does extremely well. It removes a weakness and potential way of dealing with him. It means the only good answer to a Cassidy on the other team is Widow/Soldier as they are the only ones that can reliably threaten him. And a lot of the maps Widow just doesn’t have the sight lines to be effective.
Slowest projectiles in the game, requiring not only anticipating the target’s movement but also timing the detonation to hit them. And if you are a little off their damage is a joke. And compare that to a homing missel that you fire and forget. They are absolutely orders of magnitude harder to hit with.
Fun fact: Junkrat’s mines are the only knock that leaves the enemy in full control of their movement in air. So they can literally land where they want. In most cases if they want they can still land in front of where they started. So, it is far less a effective a boop than you would think.
Fun I will give you. Strength, no. Cassidy’s is an auto target that requires no anticipation and minimal aim. To reliably get a kill Junkrat had to anticipate movement with primary and mine and detonate at the right time. In terms of reliably securing a kill, which is what the strength of an ability boils down to, Cassidy’s is able to do it with far less skill investment, making it much stronger.
2 Likes
[(Gieffingnormous post warning)]
So lets just get this out of the way, my take is that the ability definetly doesnt need any nerfs if anything it requires a small buff but REALLY what it needs is a complete rework, i really hope its just a placeholder atm cuz its so gosh-darn barebones it hurts.
As for Cass in general in the OW2 meta, i think hes pretty much just worse Soldier in every situation and needs an actual useful ability on that E button.
For my stance on Flashbang : It definetly was one of the most agregious forms of crutch abilitys in the game and i hope we have less things that are similiar to it added to the game or get some more of them reworked into at least fun crutch abilitys.
I really didnt see that on muh time in the beta but thats just personal experience so we gotta wait and see i suppose.
Lets,
At long range theres Ashe (will go into more detail later), Widow ,Soldier and debatably Hanzo.
At medium range Soldier, arguably Hanzo and depending on positioning ofc Widow cuz of burst and Ashe cuz of dynamite but its fairly close in all of those matchups (also maybe Bastion but i feel like hes sort of cheating)
At close range he currently loses to Reaper,Genji,Tracer,Torb (very arguably),Junkrat and arguably Pharah and Echo plus Hanzo is a weirdo and i think even Soldier outperforms him if he hits the Helix and he can even survive the stick afterwards if hes healing and Cass doesnt headshot him.(Bastion is still cheating a little bit but hes actually more vulnerable to Bastion having no escape options)
And thats big true, the big reason why Tracer/Reaper and him got nerfed in the first place tho they hit him a bit too hard…
As i said before hes very much arguably NOT the strongest at close range and he has close to no mobility to get to and out of medium range even if he is pretty effective there.
Well i’m pretty sure that is the definition of weakness, is something you can use against it to win, no? I agree that it takes little to no skill to land tho, it is a punishing tool, not something the Cassidy player had much in the ways of authority it was basically just a big guessing game if they dodge or not.
And yes it wasnt really a “mobility counter” it was just a tool for him to murder whoever got too close, it was a “close range counter”.
Killing someone that is under or exactly at 131 behind a corner that you’re already pretty damn close is a think the definitiion of fringe of when its better…
Like, when is it better? I guess if you have literally only time to get one shot off, whoever u stuck has no phasing ability, has less than 202 HP for a bodyshot or you headshot a 272 hp character and they have no healer effective on them it is technically better.
And that is only to SECURE the kill while you still give them about 1.5 s to still do something before they die (wich usually means killing you since you’re at close range) and for every defensive use it is completely and utterly useless.
Oh but it is quite unfair, for the Cassidy that is, actually if you have a phase ability it is like he did literally 1 damage with his ability since it has a whopping 1 WHOLE SECOND or more of time to detonate so its like 5-6 times humanly possible to react to that and even if you dont have a phase ability and can just survive it,
He still has to hit you while not really stopping any type of resistance (headshot you even if you have more than 202 or has even 2hp healing) or just fall flat and die if hes facing a tank. (Or Deflect wich mind you always will deflect it unlike before that Cass could use the Flash’s radius to hit next to Genji and stun him through deflect)
(Rant Warning)
[[And that is the same issue i have with the ability, it is EXCEPTIONALLY unispired/leaves basically no expression to the player(s), it is even EASIER to hit than Flashbang and Flash was already pretty much impossible to whiff,
Has literally no use outside of PURE damage crutch, need to get distance at all between whoever ure stickying? like a Nano Blade or anyone that survives it? uuuh nope, does literally nothing for you other than guaranteed* damage, want to use it in any level of creative way? nope, it always does the same 1 function on the same low range. ]] (Rant Over)
And at same LOW skill lvl Cassidy is likely coming out on top vs 200 hp squishys not unscathed btw, at same HIGH skill lvl i’d say its basically close to 50/50 even vs Soldier wich outranges/dmages/utilities/moves him, while also prolly getting at least to 50 hp, its that bad.
And i’d say after the nerfs Soldier is likely on a pretty balanced state, that alone tells you how weak i think Cass really is.
(Okay here we are, from earlier)
Lemme get this straight, you DONT compare on MINIMAL damage fall-off its on the start/midish of it because its the most common range you see fall-off play a part in hitscan fights,while still being long enough range to not be considered medium range imo.
You dont really shoot from like past 50m with either character in actual fights,but you can often shoot past but close to 30 (wich is still long-ish range) for both of them wich is wher fall-off dont really impact Ashe’s TTK on squishys (specially on headshots, wich is easier for her to do with an ADS) but really does vs Cass.
And i agree with you that its basically just up to chance past even 20ish meters depending on the opponent, that is sort of the nature of bows in FPS games that i really does need to get changed i think, his arrow speed should be on the fastest it was all the way back in 2020 at the very least, maybe even faster than that but with slower charge time, atm its basically just playing dice and idk bout you but i’m not a big fan of that type of thing on a FPS game.
I’d argue its still reliable enough for the 30ish meters vs Cass’s crappy fall-off dmg to outpeform him still, probbably.
Yes, hang out on those ranges, since u have no mobility to get out of places even remotely as well as every other hitscan character (other than Bastion i guess but he compesates in some other ways while still being pretty weak imo)
You dont really get to kill divers tho since u just kinda die before they do even if u stick them atm… and the nade is pretty darn useless if u get caught flanking since not only can they more easily move into cover after/before they can also heal/get healed and u just kinda die to every other good close range character in a duel so idk about the viability trying and push into that range forcibly.
From 5m range the projectile is fast enough, even got buffed, mind you, and has a pretty generous explosion fall-off radius for at least average of 100 guaranteed damage with 2 charges.
That is a big true, it is basically just a knock up and getting enviromentals with it is basically impossible unless the enemy gets stunned/boops their head afterwards but STILL it is a form of crowd control , very much vertical type but still a far cry from having none on the new Cass nade.
I guess i forgot to say in a Vacuum, wasnt comparing their kit application in my argument and even in terms of their strenght parts in the kit , mine makes so much more of an positive impact on Rat’s kit than Casses.
1 Like
Not only that it’s one of the only projectiles in the game that can be damage boosted AFTER its been thrown.
Junkrat bombs no
Echo stickies no
Bastion Grenade no
McCree Grenade? Yeah sure let’s break the rules for him
2 Likes
I saw the Karq video too, its simlpy cuz its a copy-paste from Tracer’s ult.
Wow, kind of like EXACTLY what he’s been doing to 90% of the dps roster for the past 3 years in OW1.
He deserves to be painfully average- a hitscan character shouldnt have such stupidly reliable abilities to begin with. Flash was just ridiculous. A character with no spread, no recoil and pin point accurate hitscan damage shouldn’t have had any kind of CC to begin with.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it a million times again. Chuck another metre or 2 on his roll and call it a day. He’s been a must pick at basically every rank for years now, he can stand to be “subpar” for a hot minute.
- that’s just lazy
- Cassidy’s sticky isn’t an ult it’s a medium cooldown
- neither should do that regardless of 1) and 2)
I genuinely hope this is an oversight, because if not thats actually freaking disgusting.
It was bad enough having to play into him in OW1 with him throwing out pluto sized CC constantly.
Bad enough they didn’t even bother to increase his skill ceiling in OW2 but instead gave him a HOMING grenade.
But nah, we gotta handicap him even further by letting him break the rules with damage boosting.
Jesus christ I feel sick reading that. THIS is why I constantly refer to him as Mcchandicap. Babies first hitscans’ gotta be as easy as possible.
1 Like
1.yep , really hope that the Cass nade is just a placeholder honestly, quite possibly the most uninspired ability in the whole game…
2.yea but its a sticky grenade both toss so… similarities aplenty (and i mean copied in terms of coding)
3. yea, likely just spaghetti code, tbh i didnt even know that was the case for Pulse bomb b4 the video and ive played thousands of hrs and was pretty active when Tracer was much more common (b4 the Briggloom) well, it is pretty darn rare of a interaction i suppose is why.
The flashbang was SO much worse, lol.
But, I guess you kids all have to find SOMETHING to complain about
The way I see it, McCree basically has tools to force the fight to not be at close range.