PFF Grades for Individual Heroes (and players)

Competitive Discussion
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Is there a way (thru data) to determine a player’s proficiency with a particular hero, that can run parallel with SR (which is largely outcome dependent).

Basically, in the NFL, through statistical based analysis they’ve created a grading system for each position that allows for individual success to shine through even if the team might underperform. Flip side, it will identify any players who might’ve been carried as their graded game score would be lower despite having won that day.
The players love that ish for real. And the data provides some pretty cool outcome analysis of its own (gambliiiing) but you know, baby steps.

Back to Overwatch.
Let’s say for example we develop some grading system for Hammond that includes k/d , kb’s, dmg, obj time. (and I dunno. pile and mine k’s with various proportional weighting in order to develop a grade for those stats for the current match.)
After I collect my L (j/k not really) I am then awarded my grade which will be my individual grade for that match. Over the course of a season, my grade for Hammond will be averaged out to provide a season grade. It would provide players with feedback as to their progress with a particular hero. . . .
In theory.

(you can google PFF Grades for more detail on their system and how it’s used.)

Now, outside of this? I do believe that there are individual stats for different heroes that one could try and track in order to gauge progress.
basic ones would be like k/d on any daggum hero. but say hook accuracy and hooked per ten on hog. Monkey could include dmg blocked, kb’s and melee final blows. And yes, to some degree these stats do rely on the strength of a team. But there should be enough within a player’s ability to develop with a hero independent of the match outcome or strength(weakness) of team.

Career Profile already exists and can be great for that. Depending on your play style, you can track progress in some particular area and see how that translates over time. If you’re into that kind of thing.

(Although, PLEASE, can we make CP sortable by ROLE. Nothing like comparing non related heroes when looking at the graph interface.)

=

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Isn’t the majority of that already covered (in a sense) with PBSR below Diamond?

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While the goal may be the same, neither the result nor the method of calculation are consistent with a Hero-Specific Player grade.

For the PBSR, I believe the “Stats” (who knows right?) that are derived are compared to how long you’ve played a hero relative to other players time spent on said heroes to make a fairer comparison I suppose?

I know for the PFF system, they will INITIALLY give out a grade base on the plays in that game to come up with a unique score to that Hero (using specific metrics unique to each hero used) .
That Grade then get used as a measurement to rate players who played that hero. Does make sense? I guess it may depend on how / when a comparison is made. In the Grading system, it’s more continuous ranking that changes from game to game as your season grade gets adjusted.
In PBSR I don’t know how they make the comparisons between the players who are facing off in their respective roles / heroes.

Also, PBSR is factored Into SR. . . A grade would more than likely be independent of SR since. . who tf knows what SR is these days right?
But I dunno. I dunno if it’s feasible, I just feel that . . for me it’s different. That placement post aside, I usually have pretty big effing sample sizes to judge my performance off of. I feel like if someone plays enough, they’ll wind up where they’re supposed to be? But . . grouped or not grouped u know? To me that plays a bigger factor and again, that’s just been my experience when comparing solo to group.

It’s noticeable how much my wins jump up just from going solo to a 2 stack. Which is about as far as I’d venture in to the player pool after my experience lol. Sometimes, it’s like. . I’ll take my chances in Solo if I don’t have to listen to some of this ish.

But from reading the posts across the forums in this past week, maybe a compromise.
Players will for the most part will always be unsatisfied whether justly or not. And any change in skill determination would be costly.

I say, just don’t call it SR . . because there’s too much bad math in matching supposedly “even” teams.
I’ve seen enough skilled players lose and unskilled players troll a victory they didn’t earn.

Ultimately, if more people watched their replays, overall quality of game improves and when overall player pool improves, everyone benefits.

Saw pretty clearly last season as I dipped in and out of elos.

I’ll prol have to post it in the other post (fkin forums) but the diff between a bronze and gold tank is meh
The diff between a bronze and gold healer is huge relative to that. Facts.

But because of first Role Queue and now Priority Pass we are seeing a dilution / weakening of the player pool as more players queue for roles they may not be equipped or even willing to do .

Which again raises another point. How will DPS players ever get the SAME amount of experience as say a Tank player? No way in Helllll a solo queue dps player gets 1000 matches in a season. Queue time would make that all but impossible.

So now the newer dps players won’t have the same opportunity as previous players had to have as many matches under their belt so it further stunts the player pools.
Shud’ve gotten out of the metal ranks when you had the chance. Cuz it is NOT the same OW it was even 3 months ago.
But, that’s not how people who have enjoyed past success always see it.
In Ow (and even the the forums) people can’t bend their necks fast enough to suck their own . . .
egos.

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Not necessarily. I am not a DPS player but I remember one match where I did Q up for DPS playing Ashe, was in Silver, and did better than I thought I would tbh, since I am a bad DPS. We ended up losing in the end but I lost like 10 SR +/-. I have also had another match where I won around 35 SR on the same hero in the same elo.

I dunno how that would contribute to the “how long you would play a hero” since I do not play Ashe or DPS in general. I think the PBSR measures the hero you play in the elo you play them in and compares the stats of other people playing that hero in that elo. I think, but I am not 100% sure so I cannot claim it to be the absolute truth. I personally never paid attention to that kind of stuff but only mentioned it since I remember that I noticed low SR loss on losses and higher SR gains on wins, but I did not play that role or that hero long enough to have it actually be established, so it might had something to do with the fact me placing on that role for the very first time hence why I had higher or lower SR swings.

I believe you that there is a difference in SR gains or losses whether you are in a group or not. I personally cannot remember the last time I played in a group since I only Solo Q but I can see it being a thing.

I’ve also read your other topic “Season 27: matches with Solo Q & Rheinstrike”.

It seems like you are disappointed in your gameplay experience in general. By that I mean the quality of matches you have had. I am very sorry to hear that.

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Thanks!
It’s play time on a character, I just dble checked.

Kind of scanned the thing. . . just wanted to address the level of satisfaction.

I love it.

You can’t do something that much , when it’s that hard and Not. Towards the end of last season, it kind of dawned on me. I was kind of doing it to show off. That I could do it and crush it against the odds more often than not. (It’s not like I was beating super duper skilled teams either so let’s be real) But . I’m dum. I thikn I can win every match I play. And sometimes you lose and it still hurts.
But, mental fortitude. It’s a must if you were going to do what I did and consistently try as hard as I did and be as decent as I could without expectations. I did it because I was greedy for wins. And I hope I’m alright as a person. Working on it. I even feel bad for some of the stuff I pulled earlier.
But real talk? Everything short of picking Rein or Zarya, I was going to do it to win that match in hopes of pulling it out cuz I believed it was possible if the team pulled through.
Faith.
And I streamed most of it too actually.
I just never spam my channel cuz. . honestly? Not even sure I would get along w/ the audience. And that’s for another me and another channel.
Thanks though. For reals. You can add , we’ll do some qp low k feel it out.

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Would you mind linking your Twitch? And are you the same person as Plantbuddies? You have the same type of writing :smiley:

And these are one of the moments where I hate the fact that this forum does not give you an option to PM other forum members. I mean it in a sense where you could PM me your Twitch if you do not feel comfy enough to post it out here “in the open”.

I believe you. So my swings in SR on that particular hero was mostly due to me playing that role for the very first time since I never had a lot of hr on Ashe (unless training range and QP is included). I personally do not dislike the DPS role, but like others more, if that makes sense and I never actually looked back on my DPS SR after those matches and I did those like maybe a year ago or so and never touched DPS Q Comp since.

I dunno. I guess it really depends on the elo you are playing in tbh. I found Zarya to work exceptionally well in low elos since you get free beam charge without even trying, but maybe that is just me. I rarely played Rein in Comp, but play him a lot in QP, and for me he is all about angles.

I’ve started to understand other roles, other than main, better once I started playing them.
I initially started playing them in order to understand my main role better. I used to get angry at my Tanks or my DPS for doing this or that, but once I started playing those roles as well I understood why someone made a mistake or why someone did what they did.

Hence why I completely stopped flaming anyone on my team and never took it as someone “throwing” unless they literally said so or ended up jumping off the map on purpose (and not in a means to reset).

Nonetheless, none of those things should really pose as a detriment to your own play.

I dunno if my approach to this game is a bad one or not but I always Q up with a sense of what am I trying to gain or what I am trying to learn if you know what I mean. And by learn I do not always mean learn to be better, but actually learning certain things I was never able to pull off.

Like, I personally have troubles hitting sleeps on Ana, so I tend to Q up support with a goal in mind to actually get better at hitting sleeps on Ana :smiley: Tomorrow I might try to land my hooks on Hog or actually be able to hit someone with my firestrike etc.

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Nah b.
Check the vid. . .
I rein.
I was on strike.
I dunno it’s that’s worse.
I was trolling by not reining . But. Playing rein as a solo q player is mad draining. especially post patch where you can not afford to be passive anymore. (And I’ve gone bareback against Rein / Zarya so I be damned if I gnna Zarya for anyone but me you know? Kind a.
I play a lot . Solo. lol.
I have fun. But. I speak overwatch. I just looking for like minds.

Of course I will control what I can and chips fall where they may. But I can see the win if A, B, C not even the rest. Just those three are able to perform in concert. I see ways that obstacles don’t linger you know? Tank.
What prevents me the most is usually when players go their own way per se (feed) for my team. Problem is, there’s no “time” to have discussions during the moment so , hope you made the right choice you know?

I know I’ve thought my scenarios thru and what not. But it aint nothing if my team dont believe. And that’s the thing. It’s easy. really. I mean teams that genuinely believed in me had a much better /easier chance of winning. But that’s not Ow. Why should they believe in me?
Not that I couldn’t win when the doubts start to spread. (shout out , Mental Fortitude) It just makes things remarkably harder than they have to be. But . No one wants to take the time to talk about it.

If any group is serious about winning. Just QP first. Learn from each other. I’d do it for a team experience even with the leavers you mentioned earlier. If it’s to invest in a team that can grow and wants to learn.
But, people are in a rush and sometimes
People who believe need to see it .
People who have faith, just know.
Now, I also have experience too on my side. But it’s more . . Overwatch isn’t That hard. It’s people that’s the hard part.

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I am not a Tank player by far (and any other Tank players out there reading this feel free to correct me) but in my opinion it is very, very hard to play Rein in an elo where no one works together. Sometimes I feel like Rein is the hardest Tank to get value out of and at the same time the easiest.

In order to make Rein work in any match, in any situation, on every map you honestly have to be a GM+ Rein main and be able to predict the enemy decisions even before they make them. Sometimes it is not even about your teammates. In other scenarios you end up feeding even if you really do not want to, even if you are in VC and even if you call out every single step you make.

Some people call him easy, but for me personally he is one of the hardest Tanks to master.

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this is gnna sound dum and cocky. BUT
Another part of me also said
“I’m carrying soooo much underserving trash on my Rein that it’s probably messing up matches by promoting players maybe because wins matter so much and I win on my Rein more often than not.”
I’ve only gotten 5 shot callers in a match once in the last 3 seasons. So. . you know . . I was more just drained mentally from the “service” basically I was providing to Overwatch by not only Facilitating matches by queing the MOST demanded role, but also winning more matches than maybe other tanks might be able to in my position.

I feel like in every close loss, I was like. . man I’m juist making the poop look decent.
And yes, I toootally did the math last season cuz I was 50 percent a LOT . Which mean the math was easy. I could actually calculate how much SR I had gained by going .500 . . .It was some . But it wasn’t what I thought was fair relative to my situation / efforts.
Whev man. I wasn’t in it for friends no offense. I was trying to win matches to see what this higher elo thing was all about. But . Like I said. I had fun. cuz I could also control that too. Just got to keep it all in perspective. Like someone once told me.

Yes we were still going to win, but maybe it wouldn’t happen as fast as Rein builds shatter. or maybe it might be a fairer fight. Whatever the challenge, my rein win percentage prol would have leveled off around 55% by the end of the season,

And it’s not like there’s only 1 Tank you know.
So. . . .

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I personally do not pay attention to any endorsements I might receive or might not receive. I personally do not care for those.

I am also a bit cautious when calling my teammates “undeserving trash” even tho I understand from where it comes from. It is human nature in the end and getting angry when playing this game is part of the package :smiley: I would consider one to be a psychopath if they never get angry :smiley:

The thing that helps me the most is concentrating on the fact “what do I want from this particular game”? What role did I Q up for, what hero did I choose and what do I plan to do with that particular hero.

I am currently doing most of it with Zen since he is one of the heroes that I would like to add to my support roster, so my main concern so to say is “how can I provide value with Zen?” while playing him on that or that map with that or that comp, etc.

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But that’s the thing when you play 1000 matches per season whev. . . They often do not make smart decision . . . .are exceptionally rude to everyone not in their group . . . Would never do the same for me if roles COULD ever be reversed. so . . . You recognize it after the first few hundred. And a lot of them are the same people from the same groups essentially.

The one thing that was overarching through it all. The predictability of it all. I saw it the first time in the other post. I do what everybody says but never does. I hope I have good luck and I have fun.
I think I’ve said that before. and past broadcasts should show that. It’s okay. I don’t think a lot of people can comprehend me until they’re around me for a bit .

I’m true. Words and actions.
And at the end of the day. You know what everybody and I mean EVERYBODY says.
It’s just a game.
lol
Y so serious. :nerd_face:

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Well that is what low elo is about :smiley: in the end. It is true, trust me.

I had it too, did things that I knew others would not do for me if the roles were reverse.

Groups in low elo are not actually groups where one is fed up solo q ing so they Q up with a friend who plays a complementary role to them in order to rank up together. I am not saying that there are no such groups where people actually do group up to learn and grow together, but they are really in a minority.

The majority groups you encounter in low elos are groups of people who group up in order to troll and not play the game. A 2stack of a support and DPS player, you already know that you will not get any heals from that particular support players and so on and so forth. As I said it is most definitely not always the case, but it is the majority.

Low elo is a clownfest filled with low elos players who have “given up” on the game because they think the System keeps them down but still continue to play because in some way they are addicted to it so they “troll” mixed in with actual smurfs playing their fav genji because it is actually the only elo they can play him in because in their own elos they get destroyed but at the same time cannot play any of the meta heroes at the same level so they get their frustration out on you, etc. and then you have those players that are in minority and simply want to get better.

It is basically like a mixed crowd when it comes to planning a party at your house when you were 15 and your parents are away so you tend to invite everyone you know and do not know just so that maybe the boy/girl you like would actually show up.

In the end it never really goes the way you thought it would, your mother’s precious vases get destroyed and you end up being grounded in the end or end up making out with some guy/girl you do not even know in a vomit filled bathroom while being completely and utterly drunk :smiley:

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I think (based off the experience of it) that everyone is doing what they think is right. But. you know. When you’re wrong, are you going to watch your replay and go through your though processes and analyze why this happened based off these decision.

Everything so fluid and causal (if this , then what . . 3 steps down . . . it all started with that first pick . etc) that I genuinely just hope that my teammates have their best game of the night when they’re with me. And I will never complain to them and I will always give it 100% while playing smart and level headed. I chase dubs. love em. looooove em. And you know. Matches don’t last longer than like 27 minutes so I’ll have a new team after that. Lol.
I can’t truly get mad when you know, players are genuinely trying to win. Now. how they choose to limit themselves beyond that, is also largely up to them.
There were times when I would feel like a passenger, which just meant, I would have to play off them even if it meant doing some dumb , stupid stuff. but whev.
Definition of insanity. Doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. I know I can not change them. I can only change me. So . . compromise. . . u know . . And that’s fine cuz end of the day, who cares. I’m on to the next match, and they mostly have private profiles so , “not my fault” (is generally the first line of defense and often their largest obstacle to improvement) .

Based off their actions. I believe that most players are not interested in getting better.
But if you ask them, are they interested in winning, they would say yes.
And then, they’d wonder, what’s the difference.
lol .
It’s you silly.
:see_no_evil:

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So. . .
Overwatch is a game where two things can both be true but have different weights as far as impact on match outcome.

So if Player A does something dumb and because that sparks a series of events (let’s assume Player A continues to make some poor decisions)
Same time though. Let’s say Player A has a gold medal of some sort. That player will look to that medal as proof / support that they are in the right! Even though that medal may have come at the cost of hella ult charge to the other team. Right. so Net loss.

Now let’s also say, right before you lose the last tick on 2nd point Anubis cuz that map is traaaaash. PLayer B was unable to get to over time (even though it more than likely would not have made an impact at that point of the match.)
Player B done fcdup . . And Player A still has these gold medals you know. . . deaths be damned. So. . . you know.
People want to feel good about themselves. It’s clear as day to them. And nothing. . Nothing you say or do will change that. Not in ten minutes. That’s for dang sure.
So. . you know. Sorry I couldn’t force OT.
We’ll get em next round.
But . . everyone’s butt hurt from the MOST recent event even though . . . focus on the now. . .
duh.

You play qp right?

I played qp when I got my SATTutor account. And I played it. Still too dang frickin scared to queue solo though. I ain’t stupid.

lol

But. . What I learned in qp . . win tf round. Don’t expect to win the next round after that.

If you’re on Def . . win that round. If you wind up playing outside the choke to do it. . if you’d do it qp, why wouldn’t you do it in Comp? Just win the round? Nothing’s changed? But people mentally are just not wired that way.
On that defense round they’re thinking. . Well if they cap, we’ll get a chance to cap too.

Guess what. If that was qp, you’d have just lost the match. . So you know. . . Fear. . .Lack of awareness . . Playing the clock and the situation , etc. . . Just you know . . Thinking .

And that’s the funny thing. . All these hardassses who talk mad ish and are like . . “presss w bro” or whev. . hide like behind everyhigt even when our team throws a dva bom or whever.

I don’t even have an ‘s’ key. don’t use it. had it unbound 3 seasons ago.

But I’ll never overextend. . There’s aggression and there’s suicide. And as a streamer in pvp matches, I learned a long, long time ago, spawning’s a beeech. . (bad stream)
So that background led to just staying alive . . winning my 1 v 1’s , now my 1 v 2’s . . maybe my 1 v 3’s if q and teammates maybe. . .whatever.

I know that in All my matches, I’m creating a positive mismatch for my teammates whether they know it (they don’t . . trust).

Meaning while i’m surviving my 1v2, 1v3, they’re going 5 v 4, 5 v3 you know. . . cuz I can last longer than most tanks can cuz u know. . . maps. they aint changed .

It’s funny too. I kept looknig for someone in high gold last season. . basically within 1000 SR of me. . Cuz I was soooooo not accurate for whatever my proficiency was relative to the proficiency of my teammates / other team.

It’s ok. . Maybe I can find someone in plat and we can troll too. .
but I’m not gonna lie. I need someone I can lose 10 in a row with. (Not because either of us is bad)
Someone that can mentally withstand that cuz . . it happens and sometime I queue for that 11th game.

I play the same. Me consistent. So yea.
You know why players log when they’re losing?
To send OW MMR a message. You effed w/ me too much, and I’ve hit my breaking point. That’s y

I don’t give a f. I can take it. Most of the time. And if I have a two stack hell yea.
Losses are always easier with like minded folk.
Those facts.
And you know I can lose my fair share of matches so . . . I’m basically a walking callous.
Lol,

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And the channels are easy, It’s
ttv/actTutor

I can’t see myself logging on to plantbuddies (although there’s this Rein skin there that is FIRE) mmm I feel like less of rein in anything else. . . gross.
And I’m kind of not in to spending any more money on this game. a guy has to have some dignity (As I GAVE AWAY 202 HOURS in Comp last season) lololololol

ttv/plantbuddies is the other one.

I would recommend any of the Rein highlights I made . . they’re not perfect but they kind of illustrate poking instead of right click. . Lining up pins / shatters . . when to be aggressive when to charge out. . . when to get crazy.

Def the sight lines for any of the maps for sure. Cuz maps don’t change.

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my god you’re right. I don’t remember what endorses I get and I sure don’t know from whom. BUT
BUT BUT
I do kind of remember who I give mine out to. The players whose gameplay I respected in that match.
Nice. Never thought that endorse would be useful as far as remembering stuff like that.

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