Percentage of wins and loss should account for value added to the team

Competitive Discussion
10

Is what you just described not an effective MMR system? Surely you belong in a tier where you have an equal chance of both winning and losing the match. Also, if you’re plummeting SR (consistently losing games) it’s a reflection of your skill being unequal to those you match up against; similar to if you were to go on a 10 game winning streak, the system would increase the SR you gain per win and match you up against higher skilled enemy players because you’re demonstrating that you do not belong in your current rank.

What I was trying to say is that if (through performance based SR) in a span of ten games you both lose and win five games (5-5), but you consistently outperformed all other players in the matches- you would see an aggregate gain of 5-8 SR (for example). That’s climbing. That’s you being rewarded for being better than those around you.

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11

I would also argue the reliability of Overbuff because it does not account for private profiles meaning that the results and data shown on the site are likely inaccurate. And the way I see it, you lost 24 instead of 25 or 26 for performance.

12

if i were dps and could influence the game by way of raw mechanical skill, sure. support CAN hard carry and I do but support’s ability to hard carry is significantly limited in comparison.

further, the assumption you’re making requires supports, tanks, and dps to all be evaluated efficiently within the system. when has this game ever properly scored support? are you suggesting that right now support gains the same amount as dps when they crush it?

this has never, ever, been the case. if you have proof they’ve resolved this, feel free to link me said proof and i’ll read it and update my understanding.

further, you’re suggesting “maybe you have hit your peak”. ok, which one? the high platinum i used to be at and was easily hanging around at? the gold i climb to over and over, easily? or are you suggesting i’m actually a silver player because this system sends me on losing streaks I can’t carry my way out of?

further, how is it so many people have such varying experiences? we have these supposed experts falling on the ‘git gud’ sword claiming the system ‘just works’ then we’ve got the other camp that thinks the system is close, but far from perfect and needs some updates to account for cases where you just get stuck on 10 terrible teams in a row.

the individual needs to have some ability to control slides. currently we have none. play out of your mind, and 5 other people will regularly ruin games for you.

every loss isn’t my fault. if it were, how would you prove that when the system isn’t accounting for performance within the context of that game, with those players, and who did or didn’t help that team of potatos attempt to win.

i have no doubt that if you’re one of the top 10% of the best players in the world, the system ‘eventually’ puts you where you need to be. it isn’t quick though. what about the much larger population that is 1% better than the average? you’re telling me that population is accurately placed in the SR system?

i don’t buy it and you can’t prove it.

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13

Well, first of all, you’ve got the burden of proof absolutely backwards since you’re the one pushing the conspiracy theory.

Also, the last time I climbed an old, underranked account, I was gaining 80+ SR for every win up until ~mid plat. I know that’s still a thing because a friend was getting the same thing while climbing his Smurf account this past weekend.

14

every loss is 24 points. well, that isn’t true. if im 20+ points higher average SR for the team the loss would be even higher, lower for the inverse.

the system will be flawed as long as it isn’t accounting for your performance with those terrible teamates you were placed with. the SR system itself needs to highlight value. how many ults did you get off, how many kills from said ults? how many ults blocked or eaten? there are plenty of ways to figure out value per game, implement something.

comparing your performance only to the lobby isn’t accounting for the game itself. i didn’t pick these players, you (the system) stuck me with them. if they’re all horrible, and i’m doing my best, you need to penalize them more which encourages intelligent valuable play.

whats that? you play an off meta hero? do you still crush? great, you should be rewarded. etc etc

the way it is now is lacking. it isn’t broken, but it doesn’t offer much player agency in controlling slides. the system can and does stick you with horrible players that you just won’t win with as much as it will put you with players you can win with. you said it yourself, the system tries to make you lose 50% of the time. i can tell you, it does that … really well at times. in fact, two days ago i went like 12-3-1 climbing like 150 some. the day before, 3-9-2 falling 150 some. both of those are entirely my fault right?

so which player am i? the one that easily won games at a 4:1 rate or the one that the day prior, couldn’t buy a win? or the mid platinum player i used to be before falling into a hole (partly HW related with the FPS)?

you tell me.

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15

There is also another factor in determining the SR change after completing a match, and that’s a measurement of how well you personally performed during the match. If you perform well than you gain more SR when you win, and lose less SR when defeated. The reverse is also true, so if you perform very poorly you gain less SR for a win and lose additional SR when defeated. The personal performance adjustments have been controversial amongst the community for quite some time, especially since the calculations for these adjustments are not at all transparent.

[…]

So after we get back from the holidays on January 2nd we’re going to turn off the personal performance SR adjustments for players in the Diamond skill tier and above.

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16

you’re seeing the recent soft reset in action. accounts that havent been played in awhile have all noticed this.

also, i’m not pushing any conspiracy theory. i’m saying the system could be better if it accounted for performance per role per game whilst also overlaying performance versus the lobby.

all we have now is performance versus the lobby. we have no way to account for mistakes or plays made in each game, apart from stupid medals. if you screw up, and your screw up leads to 5 other people losing … sorry you need to be penalized more than the other 5 people. if you crush, you need to be rewarded more than the other 5, etc.

17

Recent soft reset in seasons 3 & 4? That’s news to me.

I’m confused. Now your complaint is that we don’t have 23rd century AI to judge player performance?

I’m not sure what you want anymore, since your original post was asking for PBSR (which is already a thing)

18

Well I would argue that you won at a rate of 4:1 because you were better than the players you played with, ranked up, and then lost at a rate of 3:1 because you were getting outmatched by the better, higher ranked players. Also, I think you misunderstood me when I said that the matchmaking system places in a game where you have a 50% of winning. This doesn’t imply a “coinflip” scenario, rather, statistically speaking, you have a 50% chance of winning the game based on the average skill of both teams excluding exceptional circumstances that the game cannot account for.

You mentioned getting to 2800 SR, I would suggest that (as it currently stands) is your peak. This would explain why you go on losing streaks after reaching a similar rank to about 2200 where you are then able to hard carry your games because you are vastly better than those around you. Your average SR probably falls in the range of 2500.

As for why some people have mixed feelings about the current matchmaking system, although I have no empirical evidence to support a theory, I would speculate the people who are unhappy are the people who feel personally offended by the rank administered to them by the system.

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19

Blizzard removed streak bonus, both positive and negative boost, because people complained about boosters and derankers. People taking longer to adjust to the “right” rank is a direct outcome of the community’s request.

Therefore, we’re changing the tuning of the streak multiplier to be quite a bit less aggressive. You now need to win or lose more games in a row before any multiplier is used, and it scales up at a slower pace.

20

ancient post, from the old forums, that includes this …

There is also another factor in determining the SR change after completing a match, and that’s a measurement of how well you personally performed during the match. If you perform well than you gain more SR when you win, and lose less SR when defeated. The reverse is also true, so if you perform very poorly you gain less SR for a win and lose additional SR when defeated. The personal performance adjustments have been controversial amongst the community for quite some time, especially since the calculations for these adjustments are not at all transparent.

so, how exactly are these gains and losses accounted? you don’t know as per the devs, “these adjustments are not at all transparent”. cool, so we have no idea if the system is or isn’t working. we dont know if dps, tanks, and supports are all being properly accounted for. even if we assume its flawless, we the players can’t use the info to inform our own play decisions.

so, explain exactly how this scoring works.

21

Blizzard purposely is not revealing the exact measures used to prevent people from stat padding. They say so in the next paragraph of the one you copied.

Especially at the higher levels of online competition where every point of SR matters, we want players to not be distracted and worry about how to optimize around the personal performance adjustment. They should just be trying to WIN. So after we get back from the holidays on January 2nd we’re going to turn off the personal performance SR adjustments for players in the Diamond skill tier and above.

Old post or not, unless you have something newer showing otherwise, their old post is still relevent.

22

If you have potatoes on your team, the other team has potatoes, too.

GIT GUD!!

23

I feel like I discussed this already in my earlier replies, but- if, for example, you win a game of Overwatch and gain 25 or 26 SR, then 2 or 3 of that SR is gained through your performance being calculated as “better” than that of your team. Similarly, if you win a game and get 22 or 23 then that means you may not have contributed as much to the win. I think it’s worth mentioning that I’m assuming the neutral SR gain would be 24 for sake of argument.

Now, if you lose a game and only lose 22 or 23, then that means you played well because you didn’t lose a full 24 or 25 SR.

This is speaking from personal experience, although I haven’t played below diamond for some time and haven’t heard or read any updates on performance-based SR gains (which I believe exist from ranks >500- 2999).

24

I found my proof ^ :slight_smile:

25

doesn’t feel like it. further, is support’s performance properly accounted? it doesn’t feel like it. i’ve never had gains and losses as DPS like support.

support just feels completely luck of the draw. when i win, its usually a stomp. when i lose, its usually a stomp. i don’t feel like i’m really a factor in either scenario regardless of the performance i have. in close games, reward for a crushed win feels the same as a below average win.

it just feels off for support, always has, still does IMO.

26

There will always be games that feel that way. If you’re looking to improve, I would be willing to look over a vod of yours and pick out any problem areas in your play.

27

there is nothing to improve on as support in ELO hell. i found and fixed what was keeping my accuracy down. so what now, heal more? game to game this stat means nothing as in most cases in silver/gold the games where you heal the least are absolute stomps you win or lose badly. you can’t do anyhting about these games other than BOHICA. die less? i already average near the top 5% (lucio) or i’m in the top 20% (all other supports) … and i’m in $%^&*(# silver. you know how hard it is … actually its not hard at all the people shooting at me are god awful too. point is, i can’t stay at any rank i gain.

same thing always happens as support. over time, the players youre placed with drag you down. the reason for this is you don’t have enough ability to offset losses with solid play by you in your role in that game.

dps is the only role that can solo carry games consistently. as tank and support, you can be adding a ton of value and still lose badly due to other players being awful … is how the game feels.

btw, starting to see a lot of this in my games. it isn’t just me. I’m seeing mechanically sound (for the tier) supports that are the only players reliably hitting shots and abilities. feels like support players are really having a hard time in low/mid ranks with all the awful dps and worse tanking. in order to improve, as you suggest i need to do, one needs a baseline from which to draw conclusions.

so i ask, what am i? platinum like i used to be at and stayed at for a long time? gold like i climb to all the time? or silver, the rank i always slide down to now when i get into loss streaks that just can’t be broken no matter what i do? which is my baseline? this system has placed me in all these areas. on the PTR, i climbed to a breath from platinum from an initial placement of 1697 in 20 some games before the PTR ended. which palyer am i? the one that easily climbs, or the one that gets trown into games with teammates that can’t perform?

i would like to improve, not sure where to start though.

28

I’ve seen games carried by baps, lucios, sigmas, reins, zarya, hogs, etc. Hell, I’d argue that with double barrier, dps is probably the least impactful role. If you’re looking for ways to improve, watch back your replays. Watch them from your teammates’ perspectives. Watch from the other team’s perspective. See where you could’ve made decisions that would’ve turned a lost fight into a win. Go watch mL7’s bap one trick to gm series. He carries nearly all of his games. And sure, he’s mL7, so it’s unreasonable to expect your performance to be the same, but you could at LEAST shoot for performance that allows you to carry up to diamond or masters with a wider hero pool.

Stop worrying about stats. Many people have top1% on elims and dmg that contribute both of those things at the wrong time. There are plenty of dps moiras that get 4 golds and complain about it when they’re the ones playing wrong anyway.

Consider Choihyobin, one of the best off tank players in the entire game (pro player playing for SF Shock). He must have outrageous stats on Roadhog right? because he plays hog more than every other hero, right? Nope.

Damage – top 36%
Elims – top 46%
Obj Kills – top 69%
Obj Time – top 87%
Self Heal – top 56%
Deaths – top 42%
Acc – top 38%
Hooks - top 60%

Actually incredibly mediocre stats. Worse than most people I’ve seen in plat. But his winrate? 60%, even at 4665 SR. He’s doing things right that aren’t reflected in stats. Stats don’t accurately track what damage/healing/elims actually matter in a match. Getting one pick every fight, but at the right time, might be better than getting 4 picks every fight, but at the wrong time.

Again, go watch your replays and try to find things you could’ve done differently. The matchmaking system isn’t keeping you from climbing. Playing support isn’t keeping you from climbing. Your teammates aren’t keeping you from climbing. You’re the only one that has the potential to help YOU climb.

If you want other people to give you tips, I recommend posting a video of a replay to /r/OverwatchUniversity and asking for help. There’s a ton of high level players there looking to help people out all the time. They might recognize something in your game that you could improve that you haven’t noticed yet.

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29

Again, if you want to improve submit a vod for us to watch so we can identify mistakes, or errors in your gameplay that you may be unable to see on your own. I don’t think you’ll find very much success focusing on arbitrary statistics, and focusing on this aspect of your gameplay will more than likely continue to contribute to a poor and toxic perception of the game. Goodluck.