Paraphrase of Seagull concerns

So I watched this video, and noticed some threads on it getting locked, possibly because they weren’t trying to create a positive dialogue.

So here’s my attempt to paraphrase down to relevant topics of discussion:

I would encourage the mods to try to view this as constructive criticism, and a genuine attempt to make the game better. :slight_smile:

(Honestly, this video gives me a similar emotional sentiment as DrRiku’s concerns with Roadhog. And Roadhog has since been fixed to a point where he has no complaints and absolutely loves it.)


Overwatch, when it’s good, it’s amazing. And when it’s bad it’s really bad. All we need to do is fix the bad parts of the game.
Maybe some issues aren’t fixable. And are inherent to team based games. But he thinks these issues are fixable and he really truly loves Overwatch.

The gameplay experience feels a bit random between really great matches, and troll/apathetic/infighting matches. Something should be done to try to “normalize the experience” at that is consistently more fun. (I.e. Maybe a well implemented role queue)

Counter matchups shouldn’t be so strong that the fact that the enemy team picked it effectively hero bans you from playing another hero. (I.e. Brig vs Tracer isn’t so much a lopsided duel, as it is “don’t even try this, just switch.”)

GOATs is effectively bottlenecking high tier DPS picks down to Doomfist and Sombra for high tier games. And even then a GOATs variant might be better. Which isn’t much fun and variety for DPS players.

Pharah vs Hitscan is a good example of lopsided duels still being winnable with skill. (I.e. 40/60 percent matchup)

No stats during the match can lead to toxicity. No way to figure if teammates are doing well in an offmeta pick. So you just assume they aren’t doing well if they are countered and you are losing.

CC reduces personal counterplay. (Doom/Hammond/Sombra/Brig) You have to rely on teammates to save you.

Brig meta’s are probably less fun than Dive metas. Because at least those were limited to high tier and had 2-2-2 which was a wide variety of skillsets, and were more dependant on individual skill than coordinating abilities, cc, and ults.

Ultimates are too powerful. Unfun games, due to Ult advantage and snowballing. Support Ults are so strong that almost invulnerable. Attack Ults so strong, you need support Ults to block.

KOTH snowballing (on some stats, maybe tournament), KOTH, if you win the first teamfight, you win 64% of the time.
Ults started out fun, but wore off the specialness.
Solo queue often comes down to Ult economy management being the most important factor. (More Q’s = win)

Yolo Ult gambles by teammates mess up disciplined Ult management, leading to a sense of “if my teammates blow all their ultimates, we are basically doomed”.

Game should be more about strategies and plans. When Ults are too powerful. It reduces the game down to “I have more Q’s”. If hero counters are too strong. Reduces the game down to “Rock Paper Scissors” which forces switching (forfeiting of Ult charge) or playing nothing but exact meta picks.
Some heroes are “I’m here, therefore I win” (I think he’s talking about Brig armor prevalence and stuns)

All of this stacks together to create feelings of powerlessness to do anything (I.e. Lack of agency for your choices/performance to matter).

Overwatch, when it’s good, it’s amazing. And when it’s bad it’s really bad. We need to fix the bad parts of the game. Which can be done.

I think Seagull is mostly just wants skill to matter more, Brig to hard counter Tracer less, Brig stuns in general maybe going away, Dive to be more viable relative to Deathball, and “normalize the play experience” so that you get fewer outright tilting games.

And at a bare minimum that devs are aware of these concerns and making plans to address them in the future.


Everyone else viewing this thread. Please keep the negativity to a minimum. Keep it constructive. We might not all agree, but we all want the game to be better and thrive.

25 Likes

If he wants Brig to counter tracer less, fine… I want all of dive to counter Zen and Ana less.

DPS players who don’t really play Support love matchups like Genji vs Ana, because it’s extemely lopsided. It’s why Supports like Moira and Brig were introduced instead of just balancing mobility.

Blizzard could reduce overall CC, but overall mobility would need reduced as well.

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Moira’s fine. She has to sacrifice damage if she uses a healing orb, or sacrifice healing if she uses a damage orb. If she uses a damage orb, she can be killed at great risk; if she uses a healing orb, she can’t reasonably be killed but also poses little threat to you. Either way, it’s a fair fight.

This is absolutely unfair. Whereas Moira can fend for herself quite handily, Brig will not just kill you but take your job as well. She doesn’t compete with other healers for their team slots; she competes with DPS for theirs.

We need a fixed 2-2-2 role queue. As it stands, there’s generally no reason not to run Brig, because you’re not giving up healing to do so. All roles can deal damage, but only healers can reliably sustain their teams.

3 Likes

he’s with Jayne and Surefour on stream right now but it seems like they don’t agree with him in several points which is understandable, most of his concern are player centric, heck, human centric, you can’t expect blizz to repair humanity x_x

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You’re totally right. I agree with a lot of what he says, but when he used the Doomfist vs Ana matchup, I felt like it was really no different than a Tracer and/or Genji matchup against Ana. She had a huge disadvantage, and almost always lost that fight, very similar to fighting a Doomfist. Dive killed heroes like Zarya, Reinhardt, and Ana.

I do agree that there are times this game feels like it is strictly won on Ultimates alone, and not just skill. I see where he’s coming from.

Also, I do feel like there is a core issue with the game where one person literally can be the reason why your team loses (e.g. someone throwing a match).

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good anas and zens hold their own against good genji and tracer n a straight 1 v 1. good teams peel for their ana, heal her, lucio boop the flanker aware, or discord them and land a shot or two. healers who fight with each other are much harder to take down.

winston and dva can really limit what a tracer and genji accomplish by simply being aware and jumping back to their supports. DVA’s matrix times almost perfectly with Tracer’s clip, and a good DVA can shut down a good tracer.

they should have just nerfed the dive heroes instead of adding brigitte at all. I dont really get why they didnt.

take away recall and give her another blink.

limit dash reset to only kills he finishes himself, make deflect a reasonable hitbox, take away speedboost in blade and nerf slash hitbox.

Winston’s jump CD doesnt start until he lands.

DVA cant fire missiles while matrixing

not that hard

4 Likes

That’s kind of how balance has to work, though. Supports can’t be great at both handling their own fights and supporting their team’s; otherwise there’s no reason to pick other characters. Genji is strong against Ana, because Ana’s primary value comes from supporting her team, not from dueling DPS.

Moira’s is pretty reasonable. She’s overbearing in Deathmatch, but that’s about it. She trades other elements for her strength in defending herself. She doesn’t have access to any form of CC, or Resurrect, or anything that isn’t about direct damage/healing.

Brigitte doesn’t make the same trades; she just gets some of everything (from all roles/classes) in addition to being a top duelist and assassin.

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They will never, ever touch the mascots Genji and Tracer on the question of mobility, even after the designer of Genji publicly regretted giving him double jump… CC will always be here, get used to it folks.

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Ana is one of the hardest supports to kill in the game after brig for Genji. Even moira doesn’t scare me as much as an ana does. And if she has nade when you engage her… :Shudders:

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ana doesnt struggle as much with tracer/genji as she does winston/dva. same goes for zen.

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It’s funny that the guy who complained to the point of causing the reworks to start now says the game is in a bad place.

Hmmm. :thinking:

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They wouldn’t necessarily need to reduce mobility, they could also reduce other parts of those characters’ kits to emphasize that they’re supposed to give up something for that mobility rather than just getting it with no strings attached.

Ideally hero kit design should be treated like a zero-sum game where if you want to add something you need to subtract something else (exceptions can be made for kits that are currently below the intended power level baseline).

People will get bored (and leave) of it not used.

Amen. When supports complain about getting hard countered, we’re just supposed to get good or accept that we’re punching bags. When any other role complains about getting countered, everything has to be changed to suit them. The double standard is sickening. Sounds like we’re going back to the days of Supports needing to know their place, which is in the spawn room.

9 Likes

The ones that are getting locked and the ones who just post the video and not actually adding anything to it. If you allow that then that’s how spam starts.

Actually Seagull did bring up that the Doomfist vs Ana matchup is too unfavorable to Ana.

The Rock Paper Scissors thing yeah. I think rps isn’t a bad design, but it’s not rps because as mr Seagull said it ends in a mirror comp.

That’s how you get a goats meta or a dive meta, the rps linearly empties into a mirror comp instead of a cycle.

It sounds like he wants the ultimate mechanic/economy to be entirely reworked. I wonder what could be changed about them in a way that addresses his complaints?

Yeah, he actually had a conference call type thing on Twitch with Jayne, Seagull, Surefour with a bit of XQC. Was pretty epic.

He’s not entirely sure if how to address the Ult issue. But at the root of it, he’s a really skilled player. And he’s struggling in a meta where he feels like solo performance is devalued.

except he didn’t mention the reworks in his video

thinking emoji indead