[OW2] Main Flaw w/ current balancing

Overview

I think the devs know what they are doing, and the changes they are putting in are somewhere between “good” and “okay I guess technically that’s going on the right direction”. Their balancing takes (Aside from Sojourn stuff) have been pretty good.

But here’s the main flaw with the current way they do balancing, Devs appear to be in a mindset of:

  • “We’ll withhold any balance changes until we can schedule in an ideal level of changes, that’s been fully playtested”.

When the community would overall prefer:

  • Placeholder number tweak changes now/ASAP, and comprehensive changes later.

And yes, Devs got their eyes on the upcoming Christmas/NewYears holidays, where 2/3rds of the dev team going on vacation in 2 weeks, for about 2 weeks. I get that.

But with the “hotfix balance changes” system supposedly being active on this current patch. And OWL being on hiatus until at least 4 months from now until sometime after 3/13. I think it’s a mistake to be this cautious/slow with balance changes. And that there’s a ton less risk with relatively simple, and reduced playtesting “number tweak” balance changes.

And the only really risky thing is just seeing how far and how long they can stretch the community goodwill for

“Seriously, we’ll address this issue soon, well maybe not soon, maybe months from now, dunno, whenever, but we’re gonna get your expectations/hopes/hype up, then drop the ball when it comes to delivering good-enough and on-time.”

As if you loaned a friend some money, and they keep coming up with excuses with how they will pay you back soon but later, then later comes due, and they keep stalling. Where at least consistent large-fraction installment repayments would be better than months and months of nothing or next to nothing.

And tbh, usually the complex re-balancing change method, usually misses the mark anyways, and needs number tweaking to get it into the right spot.

To use a golf analogy, you want to cover big distances in large chunks, get onto the putting green, then putt the rest of the way to the goal. Not be constantly aiming for hole-in-ones.


Explaining “placeholder” changes

Where I’m going with “placeholder” balance changes.

The “placeholder” doesn’t need to solve root-cause issues.

All you need to do with it is just alleviate the pain points, give some novelty, and the feeling like things are headed on the right direction in a timely manner.

But the “root cause fix” could end up being entirely different from the “placeholder”.

It’s the bandage and pain-killers, not the surgury.

The overall “problem” with the devs design approach is that are using

  • “Root cause balancing, but entirely too late”

When they should be using

  • “Rough simple balancing, promptly on-time ASAP. And root-cause balancing eventually.”

For example, the changes they did this patch with Sojourn and Doom are relatively complicated. But they could have just thrown some relatively haphazard number tweaks on to the characters 3 months ago, with some rapid adjustments if it ends up being a problem.
And then eventually get to the design approach they are on now with the current patch. And replace all the “placeholder” number tweaks with the more complicated redesign.


Criticism by Role

That said, a majority of this criticism is in regards to Supports. Support are not even “in the right ballpark” yet to get closer to that ideal 1-2-2 Role population ratio. So they aren’t even in the “polished fine tuning” phase yet. So the slowness doesn’t make any sense.

When it comes to Tank, it is still out-of-alignment enough that it would benefit from fast number-tweak changes. Doom, for example, is probably going to want to be dialed back a bit, sooner than later. And even Hog could probably benefit by trying out 650hp, and 325selfheal.

DPS, is probably pretty close to the fine tuning stages. For example, they probably missed the mark with Sojourn changes, and that a few number changes, even in the next week, would make sense.


Time before OWL starts up, and before PVE

Also, they got this 4 month time period for BIG CHANGES to the game, without messing with OWL balancing. This is the last time period they will have for this sort of thing before either OWL starts and PVE get launched. After OWL starts up, I could see them returning to conservative fine-tuning-only changes. So they should be using this time wisely.


Experimental Card for extra Playtesting

Also if they feel like they need more playtesting, they could just throw their intended changes onto the Experimental for 2 weeks, then 2 weeks later put a revised version into Quickplay/Comp.

It’s a mistake to only be using in-house playtesting.

6 Likes

Another thing that’s frustrating is they should be using the experimental, which is supposed to be helping with the connection between what the balance team thinks and what the playerbase thinks/does before a patch goes completely live.

8 Likes

I think there were technical issues with experimental and OW2. Which makes sense, but I hate their “soon” attitude.

2 Likes

Yup, if they feel like they need more playtesting, they could just throw their intended changes onto the Experimental for 2 weeks, then 2 weeks later put a revised version into Quickplay/Comp.

It’s a mistake to only be using in-house playtesting.

4 Likes

There were, but it seemed like that was supposed to be fixed by now.

Bill Warnecke, Why Hotfix Balance Patching took till Dec 12

1 Like

It is not just a mistake, it is a slap in the face to the idea of more communication and transparency for this now “Live Service Game”.

1 Like

this its also worth pointing out that they also need time to evaluate the changes they do make…

the community is content with labeling everything OP/broken within minutes of trying something out (every change is worst change ever remember?)…when it doesnt actually work that way…people will claim a new “meta” within seconds of patch being released…

they need time to analyze what everybody is doing…then they have to come up with stuff (which can take weeks depending on the change theyre going with)…then test it…then actually put it out…its never going to be the speed that everyone wants…

thats not me saying its fast enough already everyone calm down…just that its not what the community thinks (just do blank - easy fix)…

and its been that way for 6 years now…back when i tracked patches like 2-3 years ago the average wait time between (actual) balance patches was about 1.5 months…i see no reason why thats going to change honestly

1 Like

OW2 is the experimental :unamused:

Faster/more reactive balancing has always been the answer.

I’d argue that they only need really rough stats right now. It’s actually professionally inappropriate to be doing slow fine tuning right now.

Tom Cadwell, (Top executive balance guy for Warcraft 3, and League of Legends)
Designers must use macrocalibration techniques or “get the balance values in the right ballpark”. Macrocalibration should always be completed before microcalibration is begun; small balance changes will be washed away and made into useless work if the foundation that the game rests on is still in transition. While macrocalibrating, the goal is to “find” the target gameplay that is described in the design document. Obviously, you can’t polish the gameplay with small tweaks when you aren’t even sure you’ve gotten the core gameplay to manifest!

Also it’s not crucial they get balancing fully fleshed out for esports for at least 4.5 months. And they should be able to rapidly do “number tweak” changes. Within a single day, if they wanted to.

What they should be doing is smaller changes, with a lot faster patching frequency.

And if they need more stats, then use the Experimental. Use the tool they built for the purpose of crowd-sourcing balance stats.

But again, their “forecasting” with stats don’t need to be that exact, if they are doing small changes, very frequently.

1 Like

That’s great for numbers tuning….but it’s hard to tell if anything even needs that (from an analytical point of view)….can’t just say people are saying blank guess we better change it

Well, at least when it comes to Supports. Support are not even “in the right ballpark” yet. So they aren’t even in the “polished fine tuning” phase yet. So the slowness doesn’t make any sense.

When it comes to Tank, it is still out-of-alignment enough that it would benefit from fast number-tweak changes. Doom, for example, is probably going to want to be dialed back a bit.

DPS, is probably pretty close to the fine tuning stages. But I’d argue that they probably missed the mark with Sojourn changes, and that a few number changes, even in the next week, would make sense.

Really, “ballparking it” would be better than what they are doing now. And I guess a better analogy would be treating it like Golf. Big chunks of movement, followed by fine precise putting towards the goal.

yeah but the support issue is also not a clearly identifiable problem to begin with…its certainly not a numbers issue…nobody is out there saying just give them more heals or w/e…its a complicated problem thats going to require complex solutions…which they may or may not have started to work on…either way its going to take time

you have Alec saying yesterday for example that they have stuff in mind for like Brig thats probably a ways off (cause it probably involves several departments)

but even in its simplest form its not always so simple…

take tracer for example…they gave her a numbers buff yesterday…how long would you say they keep her like that before they consider a different number? cause im sure you ask that question on here and people will say NOW NOW NOW…but it doesnt work that way…they gotta allow for people to actually adjust to the new numbers and for tendencies/trends (an actual sample size) to develop in their data to show she even needs tuning…so how long should that be? 1 day? 2? a week? 2 weeks? 3 weeks? anymore than that and youre getting to what they were proposing doing in the first place which was mid season patches

and i know the big elephant in the room is the EXC…but quite honestly its not really a good place for testing game balance…people dont take it serious in there…for macro changes maybe just to get a feel for things…but for numbers?..fine tuning? nah (most of the stuff on there was final anyway and went through regardless)

i dont like it anymore than you do probably…but i just dont see the patch cycle being any quicker…or better/worse

Doom needs an extreme nerf, right now he’s Overpowered and he’s practically immortal and a killing machine, it’s one thing to fix him and another to make him stronger than Zarya.

And supports need REAL buffs and not pointless stuff, for the bottleneck in DPS and TANK roles to get bigger and massive drain of support players.

They should stick some big changes in an Experimental - see how they land - get a lot more people testing them out. Stuff like that.

No more of this -1s on Sleep Dart nonsense. It’s absolutely pointless balancing.

Well that’s where I’m going with “placeholder”.

The “placeholder” doesn’t need to solve root-cause issues.

All you need to do with it is just alleviate the pain points, give some novelty, and the feeling like things are headed on the right direction in a timely manner.

But the “root cause fix” could end up being entirely different from the “placeholder”.

It’s the bandage and pain-killers, not the surgury.

The overall “problem” with the devs design approach is that are using

  • “Root cause balancing, but entirely too late”

When they should be using

  • “Rough simple balancing, promptly on-time ASAP. And root-cause balancing eventually.”

For example, the changes they did this patch with Sojourn and Doom are relatively complicated.
But they could have just thrown some relatively haphazard number tweaks on to the characters 3 months ago, with some rapid adjustments if it ends up being a problem.
And then eventually get to the design approach they are on now with the current patch. And replace all the “placeholder” number tweaks with the more complicated redesign.

Updated the top text and formatting.

buffing junkerqueen so slowly that the compensation nerf was bolder and more important than the buff, so it’s a net nerf lol

Well yeah. Taking forever to do balancing, then mess it up. Doesn’t really justify the delay.

That said, assuming they fixed that “hotfix balance changes” what they should be doing is just adjust her hitbox numbers back down on Tuesday.

Heck, they could spend 5 minutes, and adjust it right now, if they wanted to.

nah, keep the hitbox nerf, megabuff her self-heals to compensate

just, please, DON’T LEAVE HER LIKE THIS TILL JANUARY

but hey, this game is “free-to-run” and they don’t want to pay staff. so we gotta be patient with the 5 staff they have running OW2 in maintenance mode.