Overwatch the most rigged matchmaking on earth

What you have written here is something I argued as a design flaw back from almost 3 years ago. If you go back to the old forums you’ll see threads with over 2000 posts about this exact issue.

It came down to 2 things:

  1. Deniers believe SR and MMR are always close. (They also, funnily enough, don’t want MMR published - not suspicious at all)
  2. “You can still climb” as an argument about bad match making being fine.

Guess what? You’ve already hit both. We know (1) isn’t true as otherwise why are you gaining such large amounts of SR overall. And thus we know (2) is irrelevant as you are pointing out a bad design flaw, not an issue about climbing.

And you also see comments like this:

“Secondly, have you ever actually talked to a Smurf about PBSR and how hard it is to stay low-ranked? A lot of them joke about how low ranks are elo hell, because they have to lose twice as many games as they win, just to maintain that rank. PBSR’s effect is huge. It’s why you see throw-stacks repeatedly jumping off the map, to try and tank their stats.”

Funnily enough those “smurf accounts” that throw themselves off cliffs all game still only go down like 10SR on their throw games. It’s like they’ve confused PBSR and MMR or something… Ironically this actually supports your mismatched MMR/SR claim, and shows smurfs have trouble keeping their MMR low.

Anyway, don’t bother trying to argue the issue with the matchmaker (which also is why loss streaks feel so unbalanced, as it’s usually after your MMR has been misjudged as much higher than your true skill - ie imagine how those games in silver would have been if you weren’t smurfing), as those that know, know.

Yes, it most definitely is.
In fact, I’ve both done, and see people do these things at the rank they do belong.
Just because you aren’t capable of popping off at your actual rank doesn’t mean others aren’t.

I meant it’s unlikely for you to find 12 smurfs in silver that belong in diamond in one match.

If you are a smurf (or alt, maybe you didn’t throw), where you belong in Diamond, and your MMR has been climbing in that direction, but there is a gap between your MMR and your SR, then the system strongly suspects that you’re better than your SR. There’s another smurf that queued at the same time as you. Should the matchmaker put each of you smurfs in two separate games, so that 10 total people get a free win, and 12 people get an impossible loss? Or wouldn’t it be far better to make 1 game with 1 smurf per team, where the better team will win, and another game with 12 people whose SR and MMR are similar in it?

Think of the collateral damage of putting smurfs in games. It’s much less about the smurf than it is about the other 11 people in the game with the smurf. evening out smurfs makes games much more fair and enjoyable for all 12 people involved.

Remember, it’s not just about MMR, and it’s not just about SR. It’s about both at the same time. People will rise up in objection if you with your plat MMR got put into a game with all plat people yet you still had a silver SR. People don’t see MMR, they only see SR.

The situation I perceived you to be asking about was when your MMR had risen well above your SR, and you were complaining that it was putting you against another person whose MMR is close to yours AND whose SR is close to yours, instead of being with and against people whose SR and MMR were close to each other, and close to your SR.

You can be a great player, much higher than you should be, but Blizzards broken matchmaker will purposelly put you with worse players so that matches are “even”. On a scale of 1-10 you can be an 8 but you will be placed with 2s because of the broken matchmaker.

This problem is even worse for Supports. ELO Hell is real for supports. Fix your game.

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No need to think about one could think judging by all the forum posts about it, is their perception different to reality or this horrid abyss the match maker is saving them from?

I’d argue that if the MM placed the smurf at a particular rank, then surely it should be treating them alike anyone else at the rank from a match making perspective.

In your proposed system, a false positive for a smurf would be truly demoralizing for that player and they’d start complaining about ELO hell. Pure hyperbole here, but according to that, if there was a sufficiently large pool of players the system thought were smurfs from 2 ranks higher, they’d be utterly stuck in a lower rank because they’d always be playing an ‘even’ game from 2 ranks higher, just with ‘filler’ from where the MM placed them?

I really don’t think this is the case to tell you the truth, because a smurf has to actively throw to stay a lower rank. They wouldn’t have to if they were always being matched up against other smurfs.

It wasn’t a complaint, it was a simple “I don’t think this happens” as SR follows MMR closely. Assuming the 2 numbers were working on a similar scale it would be insane having plats smurfing in bronze forever due to such a system. How could it even work?

  • Team 1 Smurf: MMR: 2800, SR: 1200
  • Team 2 Smurf: MMR: 2830, SR: 1117

It makes no sense whatsoever. Realistically surely it would be closer to:

  • Team 1 Smurf: MMR: 1250, SR: 1200
  • Team 2 Smurf: MMR: 1200, SR: 1117

For example from what I’ve understood from the dev’s posts.

I’d argue your suggestions above would make a terrible system. (Simply for the fact I genuinely believe from earlier posts that the system is fairly good at placing people at their correct rank and this would work completely counter to that)

I’m not making suggestions. I’m trying to interpret what someone said was happening.

This is what I’m talking about. The OP.

Some of the things I’ve said are incorrect upon re-review of the best source of info:

In particular, other than Decay or DC penalties, SR and MMR do not drift apart.

Also, many of the things discussed here are in the myths section of the linked article.

They try to put you with people that have your same MMR. There is no effort to try to set up a win or a loss. Theoretically, if your MMR is below your true skill, it should be easy to win games. If your MMR gets above your true skill, it should be hard to keep winning.

It doesn’t based on the article.

They aren’t, again, based on the article. It has references to Blizzard posts, and these are listed in the Myths section.

Exactly the point I was making, you can no doubt appreciate now how little sense the following makes:

Such a system would contradict itself according to the following rules:

Theoretically, if your MMR is below your true skill, it should be easy to win games. If your MMR gets above your true skill, it should be hard to keep winning.

AND

other than Decay or DC penalties, SR and MMR do not drift apart.

Specifically:

  • Whether or not a smurf is on both teams would essentially be random because the smurf’s SRs (and therefore MMRs) are similar to those of their team-mates (rule 2)

  • Putting a smurf on both sides over time (if there was no rule 2 and MMR diverged wildly) would balance out both of those smurfs assuming the smurf pool is big enough (breaking rule 1)

Yup, I got myself tangled about on that one. Core problem was that I just accepted that SR and MMR can diverge without going back to read the actual info.

There’s even a theory (based on Blizzard statements) that for Competitive, there isn’t an MMR any more. There is only SR.

I think some of you are mistaken how matchmaker and mmr is actualy working.

Based on my experience i belive that MMR and sr are actualy very close to each other and mmr is updated after every game . Matchmaker is creating games based on few things, but most importantly based on MMR. But you can clearly see how teams have balanced SR usualy at start of every comp game. Why is that? Because mmr and sr are actualy very close to each other. And i think that matchmaker doesnt really see far than +200 sr. You can see it in initial placement on new accounts. You will start in gold and even if you perform extremely well and win your next game would not be higher than 200 sr.

So, matchmaker is trying to create balanced games but he simply doesnt know if person is plat smurf or gm smurf in bronze elo. If top 500 player is in bronze game, his mmr after win will not be suddendly +1000. Its not like that at all. I could clearly see that when i was in bronze on alt as high plat player. Even when i was performing very well and hard carrying, i wasnt suddendly placed with people from silver next game. I went up like +50 in sr and my mmr went up just by that number or slightly higher number too probably. I surely dont have exact data but its even possible that mmr is basicly same as your sr and is different only in case of leaving games,placement and decaying.

This is just my theory, i will maybe create special topic for that, but if thats how matchmaker is working, its reason why players are so frustrated with smurfs and thinks matchmaker is rigged. I say its not not accurate because system cant see difference if smurf in bronze is plat or grandmaster. And if you have luck in being placed with plat smurf while enemy team have gm smurf you can do only little to win.

Its not rigged , it just unable to create balanced games with so many alts anymore and games feel like its luck based for many people, you will have 10 nice games where you climb and next day 10 games losing streak. Dont get me wrong, you can climb , but for someone who is getting better slowly and is not smurf on alt already, is climbing very painfull experience now.

I definitely feel shift in how people behave too on top of that. They dont care that much, because many people are on alts. People too dont care about team comp as they were few seasons back. I remember people being tilted just because we had 3 dps and one tank. Or simple because we had widow. Now you can often see 4 dps no tank and nobody will react, even when they know its most likely loss, but nobody cares anymore. Or only few people truly care.

Found much the same myself honestly.

I don’t play my forum account much anymore. It is a fairly old account and significantly lower than my alts. Yet I get nervous when I log on and find myself starting to care even though the matches are easier.

With my alts I kind of disassociate with them and just don’t really care about team comp etc, I just instalock and the odd thing is I actually went up another 2 ranks with them. It was kind of a weird way of learning that I needed to just let it go and stop worrying about flexing too much which was holding me back.

5 DPS? No worries, I’ll be the 6th with my alt because I know I will pull my weight. I’ve won a lot of matches like this whereas I’d be stressed about losing SR on my main.

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What happened with me was I started getting players that were below level 30. Basically players with new accounts. I had over 80 kills in a single game because of it.

Trash game is trash.

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No, because all this does is create one match of abnormal difficulty for the rank in question. The chance to win for both teams is 50% (not taking into account which outperformer’s hero choice has higher carry potential). Over a larger number of such games, neither smurf will climb and will stay at the same SR, continuing to distort difficulty for the games hes playing in.

This is how it should be. The outperformer ROFL stomps the enemy team and proceeds to climb out of the rank he is “doing damage to” for every game hes is playing there. Of course, hes giving his team mates a free win, but this should even out with the free losses they get from outperformers being on the enemy team. Outcomes determined by smurfs suck. But thats a different problem.

As you said, thats unlikely to happen due to availability. Also, it would essentially be an equivalent case as the OP is describing (MMR mirrors to force 50% win chance).

Again, same problem because its forcing a 50% win chance by matching MMR outliers with mirrors.

Solution 1) is the only correct one, because

a) it allows overperforming players to climb, which is what the deserve, and a ranking system MUST make sure these players move to a higher rank because its otherwise producing UNFAIR and UNFUN matches.

b) it prevents match experience at a given rank to vary DRASTICALLY because it would create a high MMR battle field where many/most of the players are just coleteral damage => UNFAIR AND UNFUN

Of course, on the other hand, solution 1) would produce ONE-SIDED matches because outperformers are not mirrored, but allowing these players to “pass through for free” is healthier for the rank in the mid/long run.

Speaking about smurfs in particular: I was using the termn “outperformers” to avoid the termn “smurf”. I think a smurf would be a player who’s main account is multiple ranks higher than where he is currently playing. The reason why these players are not having trouble climbing with the current system is that their skill is much higher than what i call the “outperformer”, who is merely performing at several hundred SR higher than his current rank. Also, the system will have a hard time to actually find mirrors for a real smurf in a reasonable amount of time.

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I went down a thought exercise based on flawed assumptions in the OP’s statements. SR and MMR do not drift apart except in the cases of DC penalties and Decay.

Alts and smurfs are different. Alts just haven’t gotten to where they belong yet. Smurfs have had their SR/MMR intentionally manipulated, and damage everything about the matchmaker.

Fortunately, in Silver+ the Alt/Smurf problem is small enough to only impact people occasionally, and it’s random whether it’s a positive or negative impact.

Smurfs unfortunately have a very outsized impact on low bronze (500-800SR) where the thrower trolls go to destroy games endlessly. The population is so small there that they have a significant impact.

Repeating: SR/MMR do not drift apart even for throwers. The matchmaker does not do anything but attempt to match 12 people with the same SR/MMR into a game.

I’ll be blunt…I have watched over 300+ hours of progamers, none of them popped off to anywhere near the level I did in any of their games in GM or top 500…ever…I think you need to go watch some bronze to top 500 videos to see what mismatched MMR really looks like. I just climbed another 120 or so and I started a fight 2v6 killed two in the time my teammate took to die and then killed the rest solo, solo pushed the cart, then the enemy respawns hit and I killed 3-4 more before my team got back.

That’s not something that is nearly impossible in plat and above, and can pretty much only done by GM/top 500. winning a fight that is started 2 down is already pretty uncommon, winning fights 4 down before the fight starts and then continuing and cleaning up their team two times in a row is only possible with horrendous mismatches.

I am not complaining about the climbing…I’ve already gone up roughly 400 in just a couple afternoons, but I question whether this is really the best way to handle smurfs that need to be pushed to a higher MMR/rating. If the MMR is already so high why can’t they just put me up against plats by now. you’d think with all the wins and stomping it would be time again, but no instead, it looks like I have 3-4 more hours of play to get to plat.

Luckily I am finally out of silver/low gold so I’ve been pulled back from popping off at levels above what we see in pro games down to a more reasonable oh I’m just carrying 2-3 people’s worth.

it’s not even good practice it’s just burning approximately 6? 9 hours of my time? I don’t really keep track. I do other stuff at the same time. But as a method of keeping players engaged and playing more I guess it’s ok, but doesn’t seem like a good or fair method to me. At least if I were up against plat players by now I could start trying to learn the characters I plan to play on this account. however there is nothing to learn playing at this low rank except that you need to be supplying primary dps regardless of role because no one is doing any damage. I really am curious whether ana players can maintain 80-90% win rate in low ranks because it seems like it would be extraordinarily hard. But maybe they just don’t heal and go full on kill the enemy team. I feel like they will win the games in which they have a second main healer, but…

sometimes I think you could be right, but I only see hanzos killing 4 every fight and hitting extremely hard shots that a gold would never hit when I’m on an alt account and outperforming. I don’t think that’s coincidence I think they match a high MMR player to match me. If I just am sure to underperform and keep my win rate even then those players don’t ever appear

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It sort of does. In the case of iddqd (allegedly) they stated that his MMR on his bronze account matched that of his main after 15 games.

This is possible, but it’s also possible that you will be placed in higher ranked matches where you’re the lowest SR player. Toxicity occurs regardless of MMR - it’s an uncontrollable variable.

They already do. Once the system determined I was a smurf I got much more SR per win than I lost for a loss. Sure, it takes time, but this is to prevent errors in MMR calibration. If you can perform consistently for a large number of games then it will determine you deserve a higher rank.

That’s nowhere near a large enough sample size to justify gaining that much SR.

I believe they already do introduce test games every now and then. I’ve seen it myself plenty of times, but I’d need to check more sources for this.

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Damn! watch out OWL !

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No it’s not that I’m good. Owl players pop off similarly in low rank games if they try.

Over 500 point difference is outclassed and 1000 is being worth 5 of the enemy team in most games. Anyway i guess they just don’t want boosting to be easy. I was forgetting people do that.

Why should they be different? Both types (in my case a) outperformers and b) smurfs) have an internal MMR (or any kind of performance metric) which is higher than their current SR. Both should be treated the same way by the matchmaker. In the sense of the OP, thats “mirroring” their MMR to create a 50% matchup.

I know the debates weve had on the forums in the past and the claims that MMR stays very close to SR. However, im not so dogmatic about that. There is certain evidence that this is not always the case. For example, i heard that smurfs get huge SR adjustments for games, and that these adjustments are incremental, meaning, if they go on a streak, the adjustment increases from game to game. This is one thing that would support the thesis that there is some performance-based value (be it MMR or another value) which is decoupled from their SR, because that value acts as a “memory” for how well they did in recent games (SR adjustment calculation is not solely based on a per-game basis).

If we do have cases where MMR (or whatever value) is not close to SR, and if matchmaking takes MMR into calculation, then we can have cases where MMR mirroring is in effect, as the OP is reporting.

According to Blizzard (via this very thoroughly documented article) MMR might not even exist in Competitive any more. If it does exist, it matches SR in all cases other than disconnection penalties or decay.

That’s PBSR, and it’s not an account flag, it’s an adjustment based on the calculated win chance, and an analysis of the statistics you put forth in just that game. (see article)

According to the article, PBSR is intended to be relatively small, and again, based on statistical performance of a single match, compared to the average statistics for the hero you played of the people in a similar SR/MMR.

I can’t actually find where he says MMR may not be used anymore. I’d appreciate it if you can link that.

Nope, that’s MMR itself. It uses your MMR to calculate your win chance, and your SR will change more/less quickly dependent on how different they are. Also, all my accounts are diamond+ so there’s no PBSR involved for me.

Jeff says here that smurfs are moved out of ranks quickly as MMRs on them will match the same as that of the main account of the smurf. It’s kind of an account flag in a way.