(OUTDATED THREAD) The problem with Brigittes kit from a counter perspective

General Discussion
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EDIT
In light of the recent PTR announcement, I will no longer monitor and actively reply to this post, as Blizzard has adressed the concerns stated in this thread.
I want to thank everyone who left constructive feedback and was willing to engage in this discussion in a very civilized manner. It is always good to see everyone’s opinion, even if we ultimately still disagree with eachother.

ORIGINAL POST

Lurking on the forums in recent months, I’ve started to notice a pattern in the responses from Brig players/proponents. When confronted with the overbearing 1v1 potential of the hero, their counter argument most of the time seems to be “just focus her down with your team 4Head”, without providing a real counter argument. Tracer players were called out during the dive meta due to her being very evasive and relatively hard to kill. Now she is pretty much irrelevant if a Brig is in the game, and Tracer players are told to “suck it up”.

I understand that people were frustrated with Tracer being a strong pick, however, I feel she was never as overbearing on the ladder as Brig is at the moment (which is supported by statistics, taking win rate and pick rate into account). I understand that everyone has some form of bias (I myself enjoy playing Tracer), but I feel it does not detract from the ability to provide thought-out arguments concerning game balance.

I would argue that Tracer was way easier to shut down back in the day than Brigitte is at the moment, as there are a multitude of ways to instantly delete Tracer from existence, whereas with Brig, her shield, passive healing and armour make it very difficult to do so. On paper, Brig has counters (snipers, choke spam etc.), but in realistic situations, these are greatly diminished. In addition to this, Tracer was never a hard-counter to any single hero. Sure, she was viable in nearly every situation, but every hero could be played into a Tracer without instantly losing value. Brig, on the other hand, greatly diminishes Tracer’s value simply by existing. Playing Tracer into a Brig is basically throwing.

It is clear from statistics that Brigitte is still overtuned, currently sitting at a 55.66% WR according to overbuff. The value the hero provides compared to the input required is heavily skewed. I think that instead of adding this band-aid hero to the game, Tracer’s soft counters should have been buffed (which they have been in addition to Brig’s release, looking at Hanzo, Mei, McCree, Roadhog). These soft counters rely on skill to win the 1v1, which is healty for the game IMO. Generally, the better player will win in these matchups (from personal experience). Hell, even a good Zen can win the 1v1, although it is harder to pull off.

Brigitte is easy enough to avoid as Tracer, but her repair pack and Rally armour counter Tracer significantly already, there is no need for the 1-shot combo that is super forgiving to execute, which causes Brig’s mere presence to severely impact Tracers effectiveness through the area of denial that it projects.

A good way to tune down Brig’s overbearing nature is by reducing the stun duration to be in line with McCree’s flashbang (0.7s). This would make it so that a Brig can still force a recall on her own, or even get the kill by hitting Tracer once before using shield bash, but to delete a Tracer outright, more coordination with the team would be required.

Hard counters are unhealthy for the longevity and variety in the game, and forcing the meta through new heroes is just a band-aid fix for bad map design.
Even Reaper doesn’t hard-counter Winston. Even Widow and McCree don’t hard counter Pharah, in all these cases, there is a significant outplay potential.

All in all, I want more high-risk, high-reward heroes in the game. Super safe picks should not be as effective a counter as more risky picks, which would reward player skill more. I think buffing soft-counters instead of introducing hard-counters is better for the long-term health of the game.

Let me know what you guys think. Constructive arguments are appreciated!

~Crest

EDIT

Hartwig suggested nerfing armor and repair pack as opposed to the shield bash combo, to reward smart play, while still allowing for Brig to delete “bad” Tracers. I agree that this is probably a better change which I hadn’t thought through myself.

Thanks for all the comments so far!

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Thanks for the constructive argument, It was nice to read it

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I agree. Tracer was easier to kill than Brigitte is. Every other hero in the game is easier to kill than Brigitte. Every other hero can be outplayed even by heroes that counter them, even in suboptimal situations. She can left click once every 5 sec and heal herself 80 while blocking all incoming dmg but Winston

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On paper, there were. But in practice, no. It is way harder for someone else trying to shoot a moving Tracer than it is for the Tracer to get in, score a kill, and get out. Tracer’s pickrate in OWL, where she was the most picked DPS by far, shows just how dominant she was in pro play. And she was growing just as popular in high-rank ladder play.

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I agree that in GM and the pro leagues, you were at a disadvantage for not running her, but I feel like it could have been addressed by only buffing her soft counters, which would reduce the need for Brig. Sure, Tracer is hard to hit, but that’s why she only has 150 hp.

On the rest of the ladder, Tracer was never an issue, statistically speaking. Furthermore, if we are talking about pick-rate in the highest levels, D.Va should have a hard-counter introduced as well. It is not really solid reasoning IMO.

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Tracer is only a " pain " to deal in GM/ Top500 because people in those tiers are insane good.

While Brigitte is truly a nightmare on every single tier l

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Giving Tracer the ability to recall out of Brig’s combo would be way too unfair and way too forgiving for Tracer.

I’m curious as to why you would opt for nerfing her combo when you say that Brig is easy enough to avoid as Tracer but say that her rally pack and armor are what counters Tracer.

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As I said, it didn’t matter. As the skill requirement to fight Tracer increased, players saw diminishing returns for it, especially at high and pro levels. Pros aren’t paid to win with skill–they’re paid to win by any means necessary. They’re not going to put in three times the effort to kill Tracer when they can just pick Tracer themselves and try to play better.

The same thing happened with Widow, when she was OP.

Tracer was the single most played DPS at high ranks. Contested ONLY by Genji.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OCAxDcKTbxY/WteLuejz4bI/AAAAAAAABsc/M8C4Q1pJcokh2yc_DmWs6h2W0PZFfn2FwCLcBGAs/s640/pool.png

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Tracer can get to you friggin fast, and if she get’s into trouble, she can Recall back out. Brigitte on the other hand can just run up to you and start mauling you in close-range. No Fall-back Plan for her.

Call me another hypocryte, but till now i havn’t had one solid argument against Brigitte, that doesn’t come from some Genji or Tracer Main who suddenly has to adapt to a new meta and refuses to switch to something usefull.

And the funniest thing is… Brigittes Bash-Nerf is actually a reinhart buff :smiley: Or any Tank that can project a shield. I am totally fine with it as ocassional brigitte player and brigitte receiver

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Tracer has a lot of soft counters and many of them were in a bad state for long time. Buffing them to relevancy would apply a lot of pressure on Tracer. McCree, Roadhog, Junkrat, Torb, Hanzo, Pharah, Moira - any 2 of these in the same team make Tracer a very questionable choice even in their weak state.

Thing that people conveniently ignore is that Tracer does not hard counter any single hero. No hero is forced to swap just because enemy have a mediocre Tracer.

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While I do appreciate them making it so that she couldn’t shield bash a shielded rein I think that making shield bash unable to go through ANY barrier was a bit overkill.

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It would allow for a more skill-based 1v1. As I said, you could still kill Tracer by hitting her once before using the combo.

She is easy to avoid, as in, you can just stay away from her. But this already makes Tracer near useless, as you NEED to get in close to do anything. Without her combo, she would still (soft) counter Tracer through armour and burst heal.

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As a Tracer main myself I disagree. Let them keep their “I win” combo, but instead nerf rally armor and repair pack. At low and medium ranks Brig will continue to counter Tracer, but good Tracer will be rewarded for smart positioning and target priority.

At the same time Brig won’t be as suffocating for other heroes.

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Hence why I called for buffs to her soft-counters, as it would even the playing field in a balanced way without introducing overbearing mechanics.

I know, I acknowledged that. I said on the rest of the ladder.

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Lurk Lurk Imma Lurk, Grabs Popcorn

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She was, but nowhere omnipresent and her winrate even at GM was average to low. Tracer is akin to Ana, Genji and McCree - they retain some popularity among higher rank players just for their gameplay.

I’d argue that Hanzo with 80 (75) Storm Bow arrow was a strong enough counter for Tracer that Brig was not even needed.

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Yes, and a plethora of things can one-shot her. Can’t recall if you’re dead. Also, Brigitte can tank a lot of damage, so most of the time she doesn’t need a backup plan.

I barely play Tracer in competitive, I swap instantly when I’m up against Brigitte. This is the only situation I’ve ever had to instantly swap off because my pick instantly becomes a detriment to the team. This is not an argument for balance.

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I feel like giving her the ability to recall out of a Brig combo would be far too forgiving though. Yes you could kill her if you hit her once, but if you hit her once she could just back until she finds a health kit and goes in again.

Similarly, this would severely limit Brig’s ability to kill Tracer. She would have to hit her with a combo once (which would force Tracer to recall) then she would have to wait 7 seconds for her cd to reset so she could finish Tracer off with another combo, but she would have to do so in 5 seconds before Tracer’s recall reset. It seems like a lot of work to kill a Tracer who already screwed up by getting into Brig’s range in the first place. I just see that as being way too forgiving for Tracer players.

I also disagree with you saying that Reaper doesn’t hard counter Winston. There’s just as much outplay potential with Tracer/Brig as there is between Winston/Reaper.

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Just so we are on the same page, i play in gold league. I can tell from myself that i can’t hit a blinking tracer with some juicy hitscan and most of the people i run with feel the same. So not that we compare apples with pears here :wink:

Reinhard can basically call it a day when doomfist shows up, punching him around the map, mercy/ana ain’t for long when a genji shows up (or tracer) who knows half what they are doing.

But again, i speak gold league here, so maybe we are not even on the same page…?

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What don’t people understand about having a hard counter? Brig was literally made to keep Tracer and Genji in line since they can dodge everything that was originally supposed to counter them…

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