Why is rank progression solely tied to winning or losing?
No matter how well I do in a game, if we lose I still drop 20%. And if I do terribly and we win, I gain 20%.
This has got to be the stupidest system; please take in to account statistics. What is the purpose of tracking all my stats in game if they don’t affect anything? If I play exceptionally well and lose I shouldn’t drop a fifth of a rank. And if I play exceptionally horribly and win I shouldn’t gain a fifth of a rank.
I’m not saying win/loss should not be a factor, but it certainly shouldn’t be the only factor. As it stands, I feel like I could play with the monitor and speakers turned off and probably be the same rank as I am now.
Stats have their uses, but they can be very misleading, because often bad play can lead to high numbers while good play leads to lower numbers. E.g. a Brig committed to protecting her Ana from divers can be the glue that holds a team together by enabling the Ana, despite ending up with much lower heals and a not particularly impressive kill count.
So the game doesn’t make any assumptions about what good play is. You either win or you lose, and how you get there is up to the players. Ironically, the way the system works actually is based on statistics: if you’re playing above your rank, then statistically your win rate will be a little higher than 50%, and you’ll rank up in the long run.
My favorite is the DPS who just shoots the tank while they have full armor and never generating ULT charge. Then they blame the team when the other team ULT combo’s.
why not? you lost, it doesn’t really matter whether you played good, being able to play good and still lose is part of the competitive reality, the idea that you can lose and recuperate points on the basis of performance doesn’t belong in how team sports are evaluated.
you’re saying it should be less of a factor because you want pity points to be factored in, this idea that players or teams should get leniency on point deficit because it was a “close” game or something is completely antithetical to competitiveness, you either win or you don’t.
you feel like you deserve more versus what you got? then go play a 1v1 sport instead, you want statistics to influence the score? then quit playing competitive games because it’ll never happen, statistics do not tell the story of how good a party is.
Performance based Sr is something most people agree should be in the game. potatoes shouldn’t get carried by good players and good players shouldn’t get dragged down by soft throwers.
This is not a team sport. This is a game which has no incentive to communicate or even work as a team. All the information you are fed is based on your specific stats and performance, while your rank is not.
It’s got nothing to do with how close a game was or not. But if I end on 40-3 while my tank throws and my other dps end on 2-12, it doesn’t make sense for everyone to receive the same penalties. It’s not about pity, it’s about earning a fair result.
The inverse is also true. A dps winning with a 10-15 record should not receive the same SR gain as their team mate that went 50-5.
You are such a clown. The only place where this is a truly competitive “team” game is in official skrims and pro play. Everything else is nothing close to actual team based competition. If you think it is then I’m afraid you need to educate yourself.
In football, do you think striker that score 3 times more often get paid the same as their team mate that scores 3 times less often? Lol. All competitive sports are performance based and the better you are , the better you get rewarded.
Other games actually implement performance based rankings if you haven’t noticed… it’s everywhere. Trackmania ranked 3v3 even has a MVP mechanic that rewards the best player in the lobby with big rank boost. So even if your team mates let you down, you can still improve your rank by being the best player in the lobby.
I have a master Widow/hitscan buddy that peaked GM that can’t carry gold lobbies half the time for his Mercy friend right now, because no amount of mechanical skill can offset being dove by a Doomfist and Sombra while your own tank licks paint in the corner somewhere.
Sure not every game is like that but all it takes is a couple players to be on the wrong picks and a couple of the enemy players to be on “EZ clap” picks and you just lose and there is nothing you can do about it. This is even happening in SuperTF’s games lol.
The games matchmaking and balance is the worst it’s been in a long time.
and how do you evaluate performance? stats do not necessarily correlate to how good you play because numbers don’t tell the story, wins and losses do tell the story of which team played better.
in fact basing rank around numbers would just incentivize people to worry more about what numbers they’re padding rather than actually playing the objective and winning.
you can see this sort of number prioritizing in the past with Moira or Roadhog, Moira’s would boast having the highest damage which might look good but in reality they’re shirking their supporting duties to play Moira as a DPS instead, and a Hog with the highest healing might look good but in reality it just means they fed a ton of Ult charge to the enemy team and then deprived their own supports from Ult charge by healing themselves, you’re essentially throwing the game in pursuit of “performance SR”.
edit: to bring up football as an example, look at Celtic vs Barcelona 2012 in the UCL.
Celtic had 11% ball possession, 5 attempts and 166 total passes; against Barcelona with 89% possession, 24 attempts, and 955 total passes; on paper Barcelona completely outballed Celtic, but Celtic won 2-1 which is the only stat that matters in the end.
obviously any team stands to benefit from good communication or working together, maybe if you approached the game from this angle that there’s merit in teamwork rather than “i don’t want to work together with my team, i’m going to do my own thing 1v5” you’d see more increase in your rating.
you lost, that is the result you as part of your team earned. it sucks if you get a bad team but that’s matchmaking for you, no system in that regard can calibrate a perfectly balanced game more often than not.
you seem really hung up on numbers rather than how people actually played, maybe the other DPS spent most of the game peeling for their support which in turn translates to less opportunities to amass a high score if it meant their support stayed alive rather than leaving people out to dry in pursuit of more frags, would it be fair towards to punish those players for not playing more selfish in pursuit of more SR even though it would be more helpful for the actual team that they didn’t? again, these are the pitfalls of looking at stats and equating them to performance.
i did, it translated me to being able to climb rank while you’re here unable to translate your supposed 50-0 games into a win, instead asking for the system to restructured around you so that you can finally climb. lol.
so what reward did Mbappe get for scoring a hattrick in the 2022 World Cup Final?
that’s because a racing game is demonstratively easier to gauge how good someone performed because lap time is the only metric you have to account for, that’s why judging how someone played by K/D/A alone makes for a poor assessment because there’s a plethora of factors that come into play into actually evaluating how good someone played, and some of those factors can’t even be represented by a number.
sounds washed tbh.
the matchmaking and balance being bad is a separate issue from how ELO functions.
Stats may not matter in how much % you gain or lose, but they definitely matter in determining your future teammates and opponents. If you put up lousy stats for many games in a row, you will start getting really good teams to carry you back. The opposite is unfortunately true if you consistently put up above average stats for many consecutive games.
I’ve watched a redshell compilation where he played a NEVER healing lucio and ONLY blocked doors by standing there or booping ults and stuff and he made it to like GM.
How’d he do that and get good teams with abysmal stats every single game?
Matter of fact I’ve seen several streamers do challenges where they get abysmal stats by not playing their ‘role’ properly but still manage to rank up?
I don’t think your stats do anything - I don’t even think bot detection bothers with stats that’s how worthless it is… I remember before they started hiding peoples profiles you’d run into hit scan players with 96%+ crit headshot accuracy and still got to smurf in bronze-gold games.
I don’t think its even POSSIBLE to meaningfully use stats to determine rank or team mates.
That is an example of bad stats = good teams. Ideally you want to do just enough to win games. Going 50-0 and stomping them is not a good idea. Neither is not doing enough and losing the game.
Yes, we need some sort of reductions / increase (to rank up/down %) in comparison to your teammates’ performance. E.g. You cannot win a game in most of the cases when your teammate is running 15-22 deaths => you shouldn’t be penalized from bad performance of others.
IDK - if blizzard adds something like this to the game and then proceeds to tell us how it works - wouldnt that incentivize me as a support to go… well… I know this game is lost so im gonna just stop healing my DPS all together so they die and cant get elims - while healing only my tank so i can fluff my stats and look good like i carried the game but really i threw and let my dps die. - just gonna get abused.
edit - yeah really after putting thought into it i stand by it being literally impossible to rank people based on stats. you can manipulate wins and losses massively in too many ways that don’t involve stats in any way - such as having good voice coms / abilities like a life weaver pull or platform, mei walls, or even just good ol’ “taking space” by just being present on high ground whether you actually do anything or not. I’ve literally pushed entire check points where we spent 2-3 minutes feeding into a straight cap of the payload by swapping to widow and forcing the opposing team to stop playing the way they were to respect the widow even though i didn’t actually even get a single elim…
You have literally no way to reward those high level players who are arguably contributing way more to the win than others - and conversly its WAY too easy to fluff stats… as a DPS i could boost my DMG to have the highest dmg in the lobby pretty easy by going soldier and playing so far back i have no hope to ever be killed or score an elim but i can tickle the other team all game etc. As a tank im sure i could fluff the heck out of my mitigation stat and never die but also never play the objective etc.
implimenting a system that rewards the numbers would just make people play for the numbers instead of the objective. why would I bother trying to play the objective if i know doing that will probably result in me only getting 5% for a win but 20% for a loss? I’d rather fluff my stats every game and just hope we win anyway even just 25% of my games and I’d rank up.
Every single competitive multiplayer game that rewards players based on their performance.
You seem to think the stats you see on the scoreboard are the only relevant stats.
the only way something like this works is if it is based off of an existing baseline. That being the rank average of the given stats for a given hero. Comparing a players stats to the average is a good baseline for how well they performed.
Healing numbers and damage dealt are fairly negligible stats. However healing and damage numbers in combination with accuracy, damage elimination, elims, assists and deaths, etc as well as more nuanced stats can paint a much better picture.
If you think blizzard is only collecting basic data like damage and healing you are out of the loop.
Oh I definitely would like to work with team mates, but you see there’s this little thing called autonomy that other players have which means I don’t get to choose what they do…
Do you even play this game?
Exactly, so in an evironment where there are often huge imbalances between teams it is even more important to implement performance based SR gains and losses.
We had performance based SR for years and then Blizz sort of quietly got rid of it.
This is a bs argument. A dps player would not have significantly more deaths and fewer elims because they peel for supports. In fact they would be more likely to have more elims and die less considering the support player would be alive to help in team fights.
And like I mentioned above, there are far more nuanced stats to refer to.
Generally speaking, if you do the right things in game your stats will tend to be better. Sure there are Niche outlier situations but those often don’t really line up with how games play out.
It’s got nothing to do with restructuring or climbing. It’s about a fair system that was already in the game. I know where I belong and I’m content.
I’m not a football fanatic, although that does explain your attitude.
Had to google that nonsense, he apparently made it into the history books and received the golden boot based on his performance during the WC.
Just because one metric is easier to judge, doesn’t make others impossible.
Not sure why you are so hung up on KDA, it was just a basic example, there are plenty of other player metrics to compare to the rank ave.
If he was washed he wouldn’t still maintain masters playing regularly.
This has never been more false than since the last season update. Matchmaking is now directly tied to elo.
This is why you’re stuck in (if I had to guess) bronze. Maybe gold at most, if your mechanics are really as sharp as you say.
Sometimes when tanks are “throwing”, the problem is really that they’re not getting heals. And often when they’re not getting heals, the problem is that the supports are getting dove and no one’s peeling for them. You can get two, three, four picks in a longer team fight where the enemy keeps trickling back in. You can do this every teamfight, without dying, leading to an impressive-looking 40-3 KDR. It doesn’t matter, because your supports were getting bodied, and then your tank was falling over, and then the teamfight was lost. Your job in that case was to protect the supports, and you failed to do that. Hence you deserve the loss at least as much as the less impressive 10-15 player who was stuck trying to 2v1 a diving Winston every fight.
which ones would that be? are they anything like competitive shooters?
you’re the one who brought up numbers like 40-3 and 50-5 as an example about why you’re entitled to more SR.
you’re looking at a very mechanical side of things which again doesn’t translate to being high ranked, there’s a lot of people who are mechanically skilled but then have zero game sense which is why they’re not climbing.
plus these sort of stats are only really important to a select few heroes anyway, how would you want to use stats to determine which tanks or supports are playing good or not? what if you’re a support playing on a good team and now you’re unable to heal as much as the system quota demands?
teamwork doesn’t mean that you dictate what others people do. lol.
would it surprise you that people complained about SR gain back then as well?
that’s not the point i was making, i’m saying someone’s propensity to have more frags than the other is entirely circumstantial and shouldn’t serve as the basis for figuring out who played better.
your stats diminish at higher ranks because you’re playing against better opponents, you will generally see a decrease in some stats because your opponents play better and make less mistakes.
i’m sorry, you used a football salary analogy so i figured i would use the most watched (2.5 billion people) game in history as an example which you apparently didn’t see because you need to be a football fanatic to do so. shrug
anyway, when you brought up how footballers are rewarded for the work they put in i thought it was funny that in practice it doesn’t really work that way.
well, you could name a system that has made it possible, or explain a system that would work?
not being enough of a detriment at master level isn’t exactly a testament to one’s skill level, see: not being able to climb out of gold.
they are separate mechanics, ELO was also in effect back when it used the “good” kind of SR distribution, your issue is with matchmaking itself and how it necessitates a new formula because you want to earn/lose more SR dependent on what stats you get.
Cool story. We can all come up with curated niche stories to twist how people got their stats. You can defend the Dva that boosts into the choke into the middle of the enemy team straight after they’ve used all of their matrix while I furiously attempt to heal them.
I wasn’t being pressured, I wasn’t being dove. My “almost diamond” tank just aggressively fed every single fight with no comms. No amount of healing fixes that.
So please explain how I am supposed to fix that as a support lol.
Hey man, I feel you, I’ve been there. I did, however, say “sometimes.”
If I had to suggest a solution that might at least work some of the time, it’s to focus on damage when that happens. Try to get squishy picks while they’re distracted burning your tank down, maybe you can at least even the numbers a bit. Still going to be at a disadvantage, though.
