The game is balanced around pro players. Sombra has a lot of counter. D.va or Winston is effective if you’re playing tank. Go after her if she tries to escape with translocator. She is more killable target after the rework (translocator nerf).
If the only way to stop Mauga is to be nigh unkillable full stop, then maybe Mauga needs looking at too. Just a thought.
As you can see op, everyone have their own “nerf this and we’ll have peace”.
Ironically, Doom meta is the main reason the horse is seeing so much play. just like with Moira in the Doom, Tracer, Soj, Genji meta.
Nerf the 2 of them and Wrecking Ball & Hog will be a menace, I’d rather not have that.
Then people will start asking nerfs for…
Widow, Doomfist, Ball, Mauga
There won’t be peace. You will simply find another horse to beat with your woes instead.
It is an extremely bad faith argument to say “Sombra is not even that strong to warrant a nerf”.
I agree that Sombra doesn’t do insane damage, but she is a disgustingly overpowered character nonetheless, because of her insane kit - particularly her AUTOMATIC INVISIBILITY WHICH RENDERS HER COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE TO COUNTER OR ANTICIPATE IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.
Sombra’s automatic invisibility grants her such an I-N-S-A-N-E advantage in literally every battle that it’s just ludicrous for anyone to pretend she doesn’t need some kind of nerf to balance her out.
Sombra might not be very strong, per se, but her automatic invisibility grants her the ability to be very selective about who she targets and when/how she chooses to engage. That is power in and of itself. Sombra’s invisibility gives her plenty of room to easily manoeuvre herself into such a position that she can drain you to half-health before you’ve even managed to whip around to aim at her - let alone shoot her. That is insanely unfair, given the fact that you literally cannot do a thing to prevent this. The only way to catch her before she drains you is if that particular Sombra is playing very badly, or you got lucky.
God forbid you actually manage to hurt her badly. She can just teleport, run around a corner, wait a few seconds, turn invisible again, then either heal, or return to finish you off with the same cheese tactic as before.
The number of 32-6-2 Sombras I’ve seen on the scoreboard is truly a testament to how insanely unfair this ability is.
I am Sombra’s biggest hater, but even I am willing to concede that she is a SUPER cool character, and she could be S-tier if it weren’t for her insanely unfair invisibility. Outright invisibility has no place in a team shooter. It removes Sombra from any ‘team’, because there’s no opportunity for them to CHOOSE to engage with her, and it removes Sombra from any potential ‘shooters’ because they can’t even see the target.
If Sombra had a super strong cloaking effect, she’d be sick as hell.
- Still incredibly difficult to spot. Especially if there is other movement on screen (eg: other moving players) or if Sombra is standing still (incentivising clever movement).
- Forces Sombra to actually manoeuvre into place, instead of getting literally free kills
- Allows team members to proactively choose to work with Sombra (by distracting enemies from potentially spotting her)
- Allows enemies the chance to spot her - making her counterable. Removes ‘free’ kills. Makes her kills skillful and therefore, fair.
- Still very difficult to spot her - you actually have to TRY to look for her. If you’re in the middle of a battle, this could be very difficult. But at least you have the potential to do so before she shoots you in the back.
- Forces Sombra to actually use her environment in a meaningful way to achieve stealthy gameplay (eg: hiding in Suravasa bushes, hiding behind obstacles, or using complex background textures or darkness to further disguise her cloaking effect).
Replace the purple teleporter lines with a similar cloaking effect, so she can escape almost-invisibly. If she becomes too easy to one-shot, buff her health so she’s not completely fragile.
Also, remove passive healing for tank and damage heroes. Turn her environmental hacking into something meaningful again.
The only nerf that somewhat most agreeable is to revert hitbox buff IMO
I don’t see how any balance patch will make sense if that buff is not cancelled
IDK about “balance around the pro”, but many DPS characters currently require way lower effort to do their job than previous, including those regarded as high skill
Its not just Mauga, so dont turn this into ‘‘mauga bad’’.
Mostly because a lot of DF players even in higher ranks are really, really bad at not trying to win the tank slapfight.
It’ll never end. The real question is who do we collectively decide to listen to because I’m not in the interest of listening to brats. Doesn’t help there’s no actual vison for how the game should be from any corner.
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And then we just move onto Doomfist and Sojourn?
Because she is not all that strong or overpowered to say the very least. Is she annoying, YES, but is she overpowered or broken, NO.
I find it bad faith let alone, a flawed argument if you want to nerf the hero because she is annoying. (Not saying just you, but speaking in general) But if this was the case then all heroes are warranted a nerf, as each hero in this game is annoying.
She can be countered though, in my opinion, I rather her stealth goes back to how it was back in OW1, where it was on a resource meter, but those days are long gone, the auto stealth, on paper seems broken, in actual reality it hinders the Sombra’s player control of the character, not to mention that there is a delay when coming out of stealth, which you would have to sometime melee first to cancel the stealth timer, just so you do not be automatic put into stealth mode.
My question to you is, which part do you find more frustrating because you stated her insane kit, but talks about her stealth?
It is a pros and cons to this statement, as yes, as a flanker, Sombra can choose who she wants to engage when she wants to engage , no one is denying that, as she is an opportunist type of flanker. When you truly think about it EVERY HERO, can do this to a certain degree, but “incoming before the whole, but she has invisibility, so it is easier”, that is true, but because of that, her damage even with virus is respectfully low compared to other damage heroes, well just heroes in general.
Not really, YOU EVEN SAID IT YOURSELF that Sombra is not very strong, so why nerf her if she is not strong? Because she can choose who she wants to target while invisible?
While she is doing that, then she just puts her team at a number disadvantage. 4v5 If you notice that Sombra is not in a team fight, then more than likely she is somewhere in the backline, about to attack the support. How do you counter Sombra? PEEL. I keep stating this when I see these types of threads, Sombra’s effectiveness literally gets cut in half when your team actually plays AS A TEAM. Sombra by herself does not have the firepower to be threatening on her own. When your team are not peeling for each other, that is when Sombra can have a field day or if leave a Sombra unchecked- meaning you allow her to do whatever she wants, then of course she is going to appear strong…ANY HERO LEFT UNCHECKED CAN BE APPEAR STRONG, that is not just a Sombra issue.
Or just play as a team, if you want actual counters, play heroes that have burst damage, or play more independent heroes- Torb is a good Sombra check to name one of her counters.
BOOM, her only escape is on cooldown, and her teleport is a short distance, so you could easily follow/chase her down if she is low and you want to commit. There is still a delay before she goes invisible, and not to mention that literally, a single damage negates both her abilities. 1 Damage… cancel hack and put on cooldown and cancel stealth, forcing her the delay when coming out of stealth. Again, there are trade-offs, pros, and cons.
So when you see a Tracer or Echo with the number 32-6-2 what is the excuse for that? Also, I wouldn’t take elimination stats too seriously, you get the credit for just dealing 1 damage to the enemy before the enemy dies. I would pay attention to the damage dealt as opposed to elimination stats. It is possible for Sombra to have 32 eliminations, but have less than 2-3k damage dealt.
Within those 5 words, I know everything that I needed to know, as the argument is biased, and you are entitled to your opinion. Just the argument becomes flawed as you stated that you are her biggest hater. To that, we just have to agree to disagree, as statistically, she is not strong/ overpowered/ broken.
I don’t want to nerf her just because she’s annoying. I want to replace her invisibility because it’s game-breaking on multiple levels, which I discussed. If auto stealth is as annoying for the Sombra as you say, in addition to being game-breaking as I say, I don’t understand why anyone would ever be opposed to replacing her stealth with something better.
How on earth do you propose anyone counters Sombra when we can’t even see her? Who can counter her? The closest I’ve ever come to countering Sombra is using Moira’s fade to escape temporarily (Sombra can just teleport closer), or using Pharah’s dispersion thing to blast Sombra in the face after correctly guessing when she would invisibly follow me through doorway after I narrowly escaped her invisible attack. But that is very difficult to do - not at all balanced and sure as hell does not qualify as a ‘counter’. Even Widow - the only character who can reliably counter Sombra’s invisibility with her ult - can only do this with her ult, and is almost unplayable whenever there is a Sombra on the enemy team. My lad, you gotta be wearing grippy socks if you think Sombra is ‘counterable’. Even the turrets from Torbjorn and Symmetra can’t attack her while she’s invisible. She can hack the turrets. She can simply choose not to engage in that area until her team kills the turret (often it happens quickly). That is not a genuine counter.
My comment about her ‘insane kit’ is in reference to the combo of stealth and teleportation turning her other ‘not-so-powerful’ abilities into overpowered nonsense.
I agree that Sombra is an opportunistic flanker. That’s how she SHOULD be. She’s pretty cool for that. And I agree that other characters can choose when to engage on some level. But Sombra is the ONLY character who is FULLY in control of that decision, and cannot be flanked in return. Other characters can be targeted before they get the chance to target you. Not Sombra. Other characters can be interrupted while manoeuvring to kill their desired target. Not Sombra. That is very unfair. As I say, she is playing an entirely separate game from the rest of us.
And again, as I say, Sombra’s general lack of strength is vastly overpowered by the benefits of her invisibility - not just balancing her, but making her overpowered. As I keep saying, she is playing an entirely separate game that the rest of us can’t even touch. There is no place in Overwatch for Sombra.
You even said it yourself that Sombra is not very strong, so why nerf her?
The only ‘nerf’ I am pushing for is a change in how her invisibility works. I’m not advocating for changing her damage potential. I even want to make one of her abilities (the environmental heal pack hacking) more impactful by removing passive healing from tanks and damage heroes - the polar opposite of a nerf.
I’ve given plenty of reasons for her invisibility to be altered. Don’t ask ‘why?’ lol. I know you disagree, but I’ve been very clear.
I agree wholeheartedly with the “Sombra puts her team in 4v5 while manoeuvring”. I think it’s a good downside to her invisibility and free manoeuvring. I’ve got no argument about that.
I also agree that Sombra is designed to force better teamwork from players. This would ordinarily be a good thing, IMO, but in her case it is bad design because it is the ONLY way to handle her, and it requires a sacrifice (half your health as she sneak-attacks you) before you can even pursue her in the first place, resulting in a very unbalanced battle.
IME Sombra is only manageable if you peel in pairs. But of course, she can always choose to engage only with solo players on their way out of spawn, or with squishy healers who are standing near a teammate who is otherwise engaged in battle and therefore distracted. And if you happen to be half-health when she initially attacks, there’s nothing for it. You’re dead.
The whole “peel to kill Sombra” thing doesn’t work if Sombra is using her head at all. She is unbalanced by nature of being invisible.
BROOOOOOOO.
You cannot accuse me of being biased when YOUR OWN NAME IS SOMVRA AND YOU HAVE A SOMBRA PFP. ARE YOU DELUSIONAL???
I even contradicted my “Sombra’s biggest hater” statement by saying that Sombra could be S-tier with this one fix. I even encouraged a passive-healing removal to make her more powerful in the ways that she should be. But I’m biased? T-T Bro, do you even hear yourself?
Sombra needs another rework TBH, the mirrorwatch where she is kind of a support is actually a pretty cool idea and less frustrating to play against. Orisa needs to be nerfed but also hog and mauga so that Orisa doesnt feel like a must pick just to survive.
This exactly what happens with this hero until they fix perma invis, rework , rework is worse, they nerf and wait for next rework.
The cycle has happened 4 times now.
You need to be either utility dps or assassin dps you can’t try to be both.
Either way perma invis is the main issue.
If Flats is right, the next meta tank after Orisa nerfs will be Hog. I’m not sure he’s right, but to your point there will be a next thing. There always is.
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Im happy that they are open to reworks at all, they are not always going to get it right but at least the option to change them is available,
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That is the thing though, stealth is not “game breaking” as you claim. In terms of what I said, it is annoying as a Sombra player that I am forced to stealth when I do not want to at times.
A way to fix this issue is by putting Sombra’s Stealth back on cooldown and on a timer like it was back in OW1. She loses the permanent stealth, while still retaining as an stealth hacker. Everything does not always need to be replaced if YOU find it annoying.
If you do not see her then it is a 4v5, if you notice that Sombra is not present in a team fight, then more than likely she is IN THE BACKLINE, that is where game sense comes into play. If I am playing support, let’s say Ana to be exact, and I notice that in the team fight, I have not noticed or heard any audio cue that Sombra is in the team fight, then I let my other support know that she is somewhere here in the backline, waiting to attack one of us, so get ready to peel. I will also inform my team that Sombra is most likely in our backline, and if one of DPS can help peel just in case my other support is busy. It is all about communication, since here in high elo, Sombra is not much of an issue.
There is a handful of heroes that counter/ out-duel a Sombra even when they are hacked.
Heroes that have burst damage, can force Sombra to retreat- just like any flanker, you have countered/prevented that flanker the kill.
Heroes that can self-peel (self-defend) for themselves, as I get it that communication is not always going to happen in every game. If people do not want to communicate via voice chat, then there is type chat and PING SYSTEM, which helps out a lot, both ways, for Sombra and against her.
What people need to understand is that to counter someone or something, it does not always have to mean KILL, but instead, it reduces that hero’s effectiveness and just makes his or her job harder.
Moira is a good check, if she translocates closer, then you should be able to win that duel. The key, since I play a lot of Moira as well, is to not panic and Fade first, because if you do then you lose out the ability to self-cleanse from Virus/ Hack, thus making you an easier target for Sombra.
You mentioned, Pharah, even though Sombra is a hitscan, Pharah can still play outside of Sombra’s effective range, not saying that she counters Sombra or Sombra counter her, as it just depends on the player itself in that match-up since Pharah did get changed to be more mobile and independent.
Torb DOES counter flankers- Sombra is a flanker. If she hacks the turret then, you as a Torb know that Sombra is close, use that game sense knowledge and either interact with the turret and place it in a new location, or inform your team that Sombra is within 15m of your turret.
Though Widow is a sitting duck in the backline if she is scoped in, Widow still has Venom Mine that she can place behind her to inform her when an enemy is nearby and is about to flank her.
The list goes on, as Sombra is not this un-contested, uncounterable, non-killable hero that the forums make her out to be. Just reading your response, it just seems like YOU do not know how to counter her, and that is difference from saying that Sombra is “game-breaking on multiple levels”.
How? Any kit if and when combo correctly can be threatening, this again is not just a Sombra issue.
That is how she SHOULD be? That is how she is played and designed . Sombra in particular can not be flanked in terms of following behind her, as again like you said she is invisible, but that does not mean that she can not be targeted.
You mentioned that other characters can be interrupted while maneuvering to kill their desired target, but you forgot to mention that Sombra plans can just simply be interrupted by a single damage, but both on cooldown, where no other hero has that type of issue to them, NO OTHER HERO in this game.
She trades power for stealth/ utility. As I said previously, there are pros and cons.
But there have for many many years since 2016. I do not know if you played Overwatch 1 or not, but saying that there is no place in Overwatch for Sombra is just inaccurate.
Your reasoning is just flawed, that is why I am asking why. I am not invalidating your feelings toward the heroes, it is just it is the classic
" I can not counter this hero or ability so I want it changed and replaced " type of logic.
that is like someone, and we can use a classic example, Mercy’s Resurrection. Since people can not stop/ counter it at times, they want it removed, nerfed, or changed.
That is not how balancing works, because if that is the case, then a lot of things should be changed.
Not taking this one personally as I knew this was coming, just so you know… Sombra is not my top-played hero, You can not change your player icon here on the forums as my PFP is completely different from the one here on the forums, as it has been bugged for many seasons now. Lastly, the name Somvra, was back in 2016, it is a cool-sweaty name that was inspired by Sombra, and in the Hispanic culture, the “B” is pronounced like a “V” and plus I haven’t changed it for years.
My PFP in-game is actually the Top 500 Icon, but again the forums is bugged
^ Back in March 2023.
But, if she isn’t invisible, how does she deal with Widow?
Oh wait, maybe Widow is OP too…