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Remove all main tanks from the game, and lets remove Brigittes shield too because why not!
5 Likes
not only widowmaker.
2 Likes
I don’t understand why slowing down the fight is a bad thing. That’s where the strategy and teamplay is. I don’t want the game to be a seconds-long contest of who clicked whose head better as soon as both teams laid eyes on each other.
Barriers add strategy to the game. Breaking a barrier is not an obstacle to the game, it is part of it (or at least, circumventing the barrier). Now if the barriers never break, that’s a problem indeed, but barriers have been nerfed like crazy already (which is part of why Rein is such a must-pick, because his still works).
9 Likes
Roadhog is underpowered it wouldn’t hurt if they buffed him
Good. Unless you’re a hamster on Adderall the game is fast enough already.
11 Likes
I don’t think nerfing tanks is a good way to make Tanks fundamentally more popular.
As per usual, I’m kinda stuck on my most recent tank balance idea, where if you down the HP on barrier tanks, weaken fortify/grasp, and move Mei to the Tank role.
Then there’s nothing stopping a 600hp Roadhog/D.va speedboosting+Matrix into close range on a 350hp Sigma/Orisa, and the Hog/D.va would probably have the upperhand.
Increase kill times by a lot (by nerfing damage and increasing health pools) and you won’t need barriers anymore. Oh yeah, and get rid of one shots entirely.
Otherwise, the game is fine how it is right now. Barriers don’t take all that long to destroy and/or you have plenty of options to ignore them.
You just described how Hog plays now. Except…he’s not easy to kill. Dying instantly isn’t his problem. He’s actually one of the more survivable tanks.
His problem is what he does to the enemy team’s ult economy.
So first off, I honestly don’t think the damage creep is as bad as people make it out to be, and if it weren’t for the power of barriers we could easily walk some of it back.
Also, what’s wrong with playing corners? So you can’t just safely stand out in the open forever anymore. So what? Play the corners and work with your team.
And it’s not like I gutted rein’s max barrier health or anything. You’ll just have to be more careful about moving as a group. What this would do is force teams to commit and take more calculated risks. I mean, Rein still has 1500 points of barrier health to work with when you finally decide to go for it.
And? This isn’t Valorant or CS:GO. If you die, at worst you have to wait around 8 seconds to get back into the round. It’s like you expect to not get shot at!
Which, actually, is what Rein does right now, and has been doing since release.
And Hanzo too. IMO, Ashe is fine. She is what Widow should have always been.
That’s why I didn’t suggest removing them. What I don’t like is barriers being up the entire teamfight. There’s a difference between slowing gameplay down and forcing it to stop completely.
Nerfing their recharge rate turns them from general-use tools into valuable resources that you have to learn to manage. If you mismanage them, or if the enemy team commits in order to force it out early…
…well, isn’t that just more strategy?
That’s where the bully tanking comes into play. If the enemy McCree is really good at clicking heads, the happy-time-hammer-hour will solve that problem either by forcing him to run away, knocking him around and messing up his aim, or outright killing him.
If they have a widowmaker, maybe that’s where you specifically look to run a sigma over, or in addition to, rein since he can shove his barrier into her face and negate her entire position more easily than she can reposition.
That’s what you actually see at some levels of the game. Basically, barrier tanks are very close to being pub-stompers right now. The only think keeping them from achieving that title is how common it is to see them on both sides of a game.
If they nerf barriers a bit more, they might not need to. Again, the problem with hog is that in order to compete he needs to be able to counter 8-10 enemy ultimates over the course of the game in addition to what he currently does.
However, if you reduce the impact of barriers so that they only remove 2-4 enemy ultimates (maybe nerfing ult charge again in the process to keep things from getting out of hand in the other direction) then suddenly Hog doesn’t need anything too massive. Maybe just make hook a bit faster or something and he should be good to go.
they are already borderline OP, if you nerf barriers nwo they will actually be broken
Correct. They would be required to nerf widowmaker and hanzo in the same patch or else they would just run rampant.
But again, I’m okay with that because I hate both of them for the same reason (Hanzo much less than widowmaker because his arrows have a travel time so “flicking” isn’t really a thing with him).
Shields need a buff. Orisa especially. Gtfo with this stupid post
Yes, very yes. Just less buggy.
Barriers are weak enough. They don’t need nerfed any further. Stop trying to kill the tank role. It’s already on its death bed and people like you would basically reduce it to an even less fun and more stressful pile of rubble.
5 Likes
I think the game would lose about a quarter of it’s playerbase if they did the needed changes to not need barriers most the time.
Although more likely it would just mean doublebarrier would become mandatory for Platinum and above.
And to top it all off, it still wouldn’t put much of a dent on queue times.
2 Likes
Ashe can still 1 shot on m1 with a mercy pocket/nano/bap matrix/discord
But she’s always an exemption, right? 
Lot of traps and misunderstandings I can fall for and make in replying to this, but without making it too long and drawn out, That’s a very fair point, but not the whole picture.
But…she can one-shot… on m1 with help from a vast number of supports…
And is not encumbered by crippling slows and a vast number of other factors we could list…
An odd take, that’s for sure.
So very dependant on which ultimates we’re talking about.
Barrage ruins a barrier, pulse bomb barely dents it.
I have seen 60k+ blocked by Orisa’s before, want to know the little secret to that statistic though?
It was a 25 minute game.
“Aww gee why does the tank keep blocking more damage the longer the game goes on? What’s up with that guys?”
but your takes on a lot of things are very skewed and circumstantial, so I’ll leave you with that.
Maybe look at some data for hitscans currently, since I can already tell you haven’t.
When you get to your data, tell me how long you had to scroll to see where Widowmaker was sitting.
the 30% rate of fire buff and subsequent ammo buffs would make his DPS higher than back when he had 225 damage per shot.
Over a realistic fight, his DPS has increased.
I don’t think that’s how any of that works.
Any damage those changes would do has already been done by Valorant. There is no longer any need to cater to those people. They’re not going to spend any more money here anyway.
I think it would just because D.Va would become a viable pick again. She’s extremely popular.
Not with the non-barrier tanks finally balanced against the barrier tanks. If you could counter double-barrier with hog/barrier, d.va/barrier, or hog/d.va you’d see a lot more of that as well. But for them to be effective, barriers need to provide less overall defense. Right now a single rein can completely negate a hog’s damage output and still have barrier left over.
I mean, look at it this way.
It takes Hog 2 seconds to reload his gun, and 4.2 seconds to empty it. It will take him over two reloads to kill a rein barrier from full to dead (full clip = 700 damage, 1600/700 = ~2.25).
4.2 + 4.2 + 2 + 2 + 1.4 (two shots) = 13.8 seconds.
In 13.8 seconds Rein’s soldier:76 teammate can kill Hog 3.5 times without headshots.
With weakened barriers like I suggest, while the math doesn’t change the strategies do. Hog’s anti-barrier poke becomes more valuable. It becomes more important for him to aggressively play a forward position to draw out that barrier so he can poke it because every time he hits M1 or M2 he counters 3 seconds of barrier regen, where currently he doesn’t even counter one.
And because hog can survive the solder:76’s attention, giving up that much ult charge to draw out barrier health that rein might not be able to afford has a lot more value to it that only Hog can provide. So no, double-barrier would probably NOT become mandatory for platinum and above since the barrier tanks really can’t answer a Roadhog effectively except to spend barrier health.
Yes, because you’re describing a 2v1 scenario. Teamwork should be rewarded.
I’ve honestly got zero problem with a pocketed Ashe one-shotting squished. Her team didn’t get that capacity for free.
With Widowmaker you do, and it’s why I think she’s a problem.
This thread is a good explanation of why Ashe is not a problem to Widowmaker’s extent:
It sums up quite nicely why Ashe is fine and Widow is not.
I don’t mean putting the barrier up in the face of an ultimate to negate it.
I mean blocking the damage that heroes use to build their ults. Dealing damage to barriers generates zero ult charge.
See the thread I linked above. My hatred of widowmaker has nothing to do with how effective she is or is not. Her core design philosophy is the problem and she cannot be balanced so long as her M1 warps the entire game around her.
No it didn’t. He’s back to where he was overall, but his burst potential is far lower.
Except it is. D.Va is only bad right now because barriers are so much better after her DM nerf. If you bring barriers in-line with where DM currently is she becomes competitive.
So don’t go for corner shots, they weren’t a staple to play him so it’s irrelevant.
Trap + 2 great knockbacks.
face away from the bullets. his hunch helps stop them hitting his head.
presses X to doubt
be closer then.
So much of that is wrong, good lord.
Yep and that’s what you should be focusing on there since it will
S H R E D D their barrier(s)
The entirety of this was irrelevant to the question, especially since your first point is all we needed.
I love this because you give Bastion a whole team, but Sym only a pocket, which you disregard before they’ve even been mentioned.
At least use the same cooperative team in your examples, otherwise this falls apart and becomes highly specific scenarios you have made which have very few variables for us to track. If everything is always changing, how can you make a point?
except i didnt say only widow and hanzo, i said hitscans; aka soldier widow mccree ashe
Technically bastion too but im not asking for a bastion nerf that would be ridiculous
Plus there is no good reason other than “make game faster” which isnt necesary
3 Likes
Tbh, I think one of the least disruptive ways to buff Hog, is to make solobarrier Orisa be good again.
And if he’s still got problems, they could either cut his Ult charge feeding rate, or make him feed zero charge during TakeABreather and maybe bodyblock earthshatter.
But even currently Hog is the third most popular Tank behind Zarya. He’s doing okay, mostly.
1 Like
Okay so if Sombra hacks a rein and widow shoots you even though you were originally behind a shield you deserved to be eliminated.
Same synergy, one helped the other secure a kill.
If an enemy rein charges in and pins your main tank, potentially removing the protective barrier (Using rein as an example because of his commanding pickrate) Then the widow that cleans up the rest of your team, is just being rewarded for teamwork, no?
Ooh what if someone calls out to their widow where another enemy is, like if someone was flanking to get the Widow or if a Sym was teleporting some of her team?
Any kills the widow makes after that callout would also fall under ‘Teamwork’ and should be rewarded as such.
Even when restated I don’t understand your point here.
Should blocking damage not work as intended?
The damage was blocked so neither party was rewarded, as blocking is a very safe and passive way to play.
A lot of heroes are heavily reliant on their M1 to be effective, if not playable.
Okay so here’s where you are wrong:
Burst =/= dps.
Plus, yes it did.
33% damage reduction with a 30% RoF increase does make him have lower Damge per second, quite obviously here, yet you have to factor in that he has two more shots than before (50% increase) before needing to reload.
meaning he needs to reload A Lot Less during a fight.
There’s a lot more to it as well if we’re talking about realistic damage per second against a regular target that’s not at point blank range, but since this is Exclusively barriers I don’t have to care about any of that.
It’s a pure DPS increase for him to have a faster rate of fire and 2 extra shots, in exchange for a ~33% damage nerf.
For simple maths, his old speed was 1 shot per second at 225 damage, so 225 damage per second,
Post damage nerf and rate of fire buff it has become 214.5
yet when you factor in the reload speed and how many more shots you would get off in any realistic fight, it comes out as a buff.
If you want to purely argue one clip, you may have a claim, but even then it’s not a very big difference on such a small scale.
Anyway to come back to the point you wanted to argue, his DPS has increased over a realistic fight.
That’s not how data works.
You’d have to let sigma cancel kinetic grasp without having to waste accretion. He’s already food during its duration. Absolutely sucks that the shields aren’t actively applied as it eats damage.
2 Likes