It’s supposed to be compensation for damage orb nerfs. So she mostly ults as fast as she does now but skillful Moiras will see small improvement.
I don’t know if it’s right compensation but she’d be significantly less sturdy and doing less damage over time, so she need something.
I really like your Zen and Brig changes
Ah, makes sense. I also think it might be good for them to reduce the width of her succ beam and give her a buff somewhere else related to said beam, in order to increase her skillcap. That would be really nice, imo. Make her more skillful and rewarded for being so.
The orb change already accomplishes making her more skillful because in order to use it in a duel, she’d have to have the gamesense to be aware the flanker is gonna attack her and from where to compensate for the delay. Otherwise, they’d be to easily walk through it for no value.
That’s true, but it doesn’t add extra potential; it simply increases her skill floor.(which is great) I want to increase her ceiling too while also increasing said floor further.
She’s supposed to be a hero that helps low ranked healers make it out of spawn if the enemy is running a flanker, as they receive zero peel. There was actually low ranked Genjis bragging about keeping supports in their spawn and that they got people to quit the game for the week she was banned.
Because of that I’m pretty highly against beam changes. And would rather make things more difficult for those players by changing damage orb, as it is the combo of the abilites that make her unfair at that rank. Either ability alone isn’t a huge problem.
I’m not suggesting a change to her heal, which is all she really needs to achieve this. A good (as in, one with a brain) brig can also do this pretty well, as can a good Mercy of Lucio. Heck, even a good Ana can defend herself if a single flanker tries to spawn camp her, etc. Different story if it’s multiple enemy teammates, but at least she has other options and that makes it a 5v4 (or less)
All heroes deserve to have a high skill ceiling, even if it’s impossible to have them all equal. Right now I consider Moira to have one of the worst.
She actually doesn’t need the heal. She needs the width. Because the issue is the mobile heroes are faster and smaller than they can hit.
They have high dodge so they made one with an ability that is hard to dodge.
It’s actually still a very winnable match for the flankers unless she uses her orb because they can headshot.
Damage Orb + self heal + beam width is excessive though. So I figured I’d tone down one of them.
Ana, Lucio, and Zen I 100% agree. I assume with Zen revert that means making his orb damage 46 like before with +30%? Leaving it at 48 means he does 64.4 damage with discord revert.
Mercy I agree with 60 hps but I think Valkyrie is fine at 15 seconds unless Valkyrie gets a buff like more healing or increase in damage boost. The 3 second reduction nerf is fine only if there is a compensational buff added to the ultimate.
Brigitte needs her self-healing buffed more than her shield in my opinion. 10.83 hps is completely unacceptable. Shield management would be a lot easier if her self-healing was buffed. I personally would buff her self healing from 65 hp to 75 hp (12.5 hps over 6 seconds). This would make her self-healing rate about 0.2 hps better than Lucio’s self-healing. Nerfing repair pack that much is a bit harsh. Brigitte’s healing is not that reliable to start with due to the dependency of needing to do damage to an enemy target and repair packs are her only reliable way of healing her teammates without putting herself in danger. While Brigitte needs to be mainly healing her team by keeping inspire active, she still needs an alternative and reliable way of healing her team if she can’t activate inspire. At least let repair packs give 100 hp so that they do 50 hps over 2 seconds which would be in line with Mercy’s current healing and we all know how weak 50 hps healing really is because of Mercy. I agree shield bash needs to do more damage but the numbers for that, her flail, and whip shot need to be tweaked around so that she can’t kill Tracer in one combo like before.
Damage orb disappearing after Moira dies would be inconsistent with healing orb so if you want that for damage orb, same has to hold true for healing orb and that will hurt Moira a lot. Moira needs a buff more than anything (specifically, her healing needs to be buffed,). If anything about Moira needs to be nerfed, it’s her secondary fire hit box. It is massive and because of this, most players believe it’s auto-lock when in reality, it’s a beam attack like Sym’s and Zarya’s primaries and Echo’s focus beam. With smaller secondary fire hit box, Moira players with good tracking can be rewarded.
Hell no! This is what made him a must-pick. He got nerfed into the ground because of that firing rate buff. His healing grenades need to be 60 hp again and one of the IF nerfs needs to be reverted. Either the duration needs to be 7 seconds again with current 25 second cool down (6 seconds would be fine as well) or the cool down needs to be 20 seconds with current 5 second cool down. Ult charge cost should also be reduced but I’m not sure by how much (I wanna say around 10-15%?).
I’m Moira Main and I charge Coalescence every fight… just saying…
I actually think Ana should get a slight reduction in healing to match the general reductions in healing among supports. Nothing complex, just maybe reduce her healing per dart to 70 to match her damage. It’s only a total HPS reduction of 6.25, but I think it encourages more aggressive play by reducing sustain.
Are you serious?? Nerf zen more?? He needs a buff. As a zen main, that would run him into the ground. I already get too much flack for playing him in comp, since every mediocre player was a pocket healer.
She needs a nerf or two, somewhere. I would personally go with 14 -> 12 ammo to start with, then wait to see alongside the other support changes. If she’s still pulling absurd numbers even into mid and low ranks (as I suspect she may well do), nerf the cooldown of Nade by 2 seconds. I’m fine with her being top support in high ranks, but she’s really strong across the board right now.
Agreed
Agreed
Eh. She needs something more aggressive. I’d rather she keep 50 HPS but get some kind of healing augment (50 + 10% target’s max health for 3 seconds, 10 second cooldown) and for Valkyrie to be reworked such that she gets stronger healing but no chains, and also gets three “charges” that can either be used to burst heal or non-insta-Rez an ally.
These aren’t bad changes, they just won’t really do that much for her IMHO. At a minimum, you should at least buff Valk’s healing (probably for primary target) if you’re cutting the duration. She doesn’t really need trade-offs at the moment.
If you guarantee +100 Barrier Health, then why not? Though frankly, I’d rather cut the duration of the healing from 2 seconds @ 55 HPS to 1.5 seconds @ 60 HPS rather than 2 seconds @ 45 HPS. Same total reduction in healing, but keeps it more impactful. I’d be fairly happy either way to see her move back a little closer to the frontline Paladin design of Brigitte 1.0 and not the backline Whipshot/Pack bot of Brigitte 2.0
No. Really, she just needs a revert back to release state, with maybe a 15% reduction in the size of her healing meter so that she can dish out powerful healing (which should be her schtick) but has to be fairly mindful of her resource usage.
Eh. DPS players will whine and complain, so I don’t see this as feasible. I’d rather he, like Moira, get mostly reverted to release state with a handful of changes: one of either the Lamp duration nerf or the Lamp cooldown nerf, booster boots buff, falloff/spread buff.
In general, I’d rather see healers changed such that their healing is made powerful again, but inconsistent. Blizzard has taken them more in the direction of “consistent but weak,” which really isn’t good design for most of them IMO. It works for Zenyatta and Lucio because they have a lot of other things going for them. It doesn’t work for the other five. It limits their potential impact and reduces the skill gap more than the alternative, and that directly feeds into frustrations that many support players have voiced with the role over the past year or so.
No. She really doesn’t. This is how we got Mercy binned for over a year. You don’t need to keep yo-yo-ing these two around because you overnerf one at the same time you buff another.
The only way she should see a nerf is if allowing Mercy to compete with her again didn’t do anything to her pickrate. She has already fallen out of meta when other main healers were better suited to the comp.
As for Mercy, she needs 60 hps to be a main healer again. It would be a massive change if she could actually fit into the game again.
Pretty much every viable comp has run one healer to keep up tanks and one defensive ult, and she provides neither. She is literally the ONLY healer that doesn’t do either of these things. That’s why she’s sucks. She was fine when she fit in, and she was garbage for years after she didn’t, but people still insist that she shouldn’t fit in. It’s absolutely madness. And that we do the same thing to Ana.
Let’s actually learn from past patches and not make the same mistakes that messed up Mercy and Zen.
Yes, she really does. She was the top support on ladder during GOATS. She was the top support on ladder during Bunker, even beating out Baptiste. She lost the title to Moira during Double Barrier but still pulled strong numbers, and she’s back to being the top support again with obscene numbers on par with Moth Mercy. It’s not just in GM, either–she’s the top support in every rank but Silver and Gold, where she’s #2. Sorry, but she really just does need a nerf.
So being Mercy binned for a year is bad, but being Ana binned isn’t? Let’s be fair, fam. The reason we got Mercy binned is because Mercy was made inanely busted by her rework, and then later on had good synergy with Hanzo, who was made busted by his rework. Ana really doesn’t have that much to do with that–when Ana got nerfed hard prior to Moth Meta, the meta supports were Lucio and Zen, not Mercy.
Which is why I said to nerf her ammo by 2 and wait to see until other support changes have had time to settle. A 2 shot decrease to her ammo is not an overnerf. It’s a pretty small nerf.
I really don’t think 60 HPS would do much for her in a game that has had damage creep and reductions to barriers. She’d probably better fulfill the main healer role if she could reactively adjust her healing like other main healers to deny heavier damage.
And barely run in league because it was preference to the synergies being run.
Because he needed buffs and when he got them, he beat her. He had a garbage winrate. Mercy wasn’t usable and Moira didn’t fit.
Because Moira was better suited to the comp.
Because she’s always been the best support to run with Rein and the only other one you’d want to run right now instead cannot be run.
Her primary competition for the comps she is good in was nerfed to the ground and that has not changed for years, so why wouldn’t she continue to take that pickrate for herself.
Moira doesn’t fit, Baptiste was overnerfed so badly that he’s got the worst stats of any support in years, and Mercy literally cannot do the job anymore.
She doesn’t deserve to be nerfed because she’s the best choice out of a single real option. That’s what happened to Mercy and she’s been dumpstered for nearly 2 years now.
A must pick out of a single real option isn’t grounds for a nerf.
No. I said let’s not bin Ana like we did Mercy. Don’t cherry pick to twist the meaning. It’s beneath you
Apologies, I misread the original comment. Nonetheless, let’s not pretend what I’m suggesting is remotely comparable to what happened with Mercy. She got numerous nerfs, some fairly sizable, over the course of a year while Ana got a few pretty sizable buffs, and then when Mercy was already falling to the wayside, she got a big nerf and Ana got big buffs.
That’s nowhere near what I’m suggesting with Ana receiving one, maybe two small nerfs, and Mercy getting some decent buffs. Not even close, and pretending it is seems rather disingenuous.
Or simply that the coordination of League allowed them to capitalize on Discord while ladder players simply defaulted to whoever the strongest support was.
No, he didn’t actually. He got closer, but he remained second fiddle to Ana on ladder during Bunker. He only ever actually overtook her during Double Barrier, and by that point, people were screaming that he was OP. Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn’t, but it took a completely adverse meta and some fairly significant buffs for him to oust Ana… and she was still a solid pick. That’s an issue. When you’re strong even when the meta is against you, that kinda really suggests you’re just really powerful.
I’m not denying this. But, as I just said, it took a pretty much completely antagonistic meta for her to not be the top ladder support. If she were balanced, I’d have expect her to be more like Zen, who appeared to have dropped to near-throw-pick levels during Double Barrier. Ana didn’t. She was still a pretty dang strong hero.
This whole argument would hold more water if she wasn’t also the strongest support before all the others got nerfed. She needed nerfs a year ago when she was dominating the ladder. Yes, the difference between her holding a 10% pickrate average and a 13% pickrate average (12% vs 17% GM) is because other supports are weaker, but that doesn’t change that she was by far the superior support a year ago when everybody was stronger.
All good. And thank you.
But Ana already HAS fallen by the wayside when it was appropriate for her too. Same as Mercy. And the nerf you are proposing is the exact same kind of nerf. The reason that Ana got that ammo increase so long ago was similar reasons as Mercy, it was not enough.
So the two are extremely similar. It’s not about quantity of nerfs, it’s about power levels. Mercy was falling because Ana was better suited to Gravdragon once Mercy couldn’t amp dragons anymore. Ana has fallen because Moira and Bap were better suited to double barrier.
The both have similar pickrates, because they were one choice out of one.
Bap would have been run if he hadn’t been weak. And Moira isn’t that good in traditional bunker. He kept getting buffs during bunker and was actually used more than Ana in league. It was he required too much coordination to mitigate his weaknesses. Something that League could do and Ladder couldn’t. They ended up overdoing it, but Baptiste was actually not fine by his own merits without significant levels of coordination to cover his weaknesses. And that’s never ladder.
Just like Ana would have been run over Mercy in Gravdragon if she hadn’t been overnerfed previously. It had little to do with Mercy being too strong, outside of being able to boost dragons. It looked that way because the only hero designed to compete was too weak by their own merits.