Moira and brig are what happens when the devs accept the “you cant nerf x because skill” when x is clearly over performing.
You can’t buff you way out of/put out new heroes as a response to other heroes being overpowered. It just doesn’t work.
Bruh, zen is easy for tracers too kill. I suck at tracer and I can slaughter even a great zen.
He’s hard countered by flankers
I litterly said that.
2 Likes
Sadly many people think like that.
They say that only high skilled heroes should be viable at high rank… How boring would that be, holy moly
1 Like
It’s not even about it being boring. The you cant nerf skill mindset lead directly to brig 1.0
The very fact that a monstrosity such as brig 1.0 was needed to counter tracer shows just how gamebreakingly overpowered tracer (and dive) was at the time…she along with many other popular dive heroes should have just been nerfed.
Not doing so lead to spiralling cc buffs, sustain buffs, damage buffs, broken heroes…all because the devs accepted “muh skill” as a valid arguement.
3 Likes
It’s always funny how people claim they have skill yet lack the ability to understand when a matchup is is their favor by design and what reasonable to expect out of a counter.
You guys seriously think that ana and zen are on an even skill matchup to characters like genji and tracer? There are two things that happen in the game that causes people to think this is reasonable.
-
They see a really high level player who makes it look easy
-
They generally suck with their character so bad that their natural advantages are negated by their awful playstyle, so much that it appears to be an even match.
Expecting ana to always fight off flankers is like expecting a widowmaker without grapple hook to win with a head shot. Yeah we see high level players do it but it’s insane to expect it out of your average widowmaker
Same with zen. It’s similar to expecting mccree to win against flankers without his flash bang. You can do it, but you’re likely to die more than they do.
She is for the majority of the game, remind you before her nerfs it was even worse and she has been that way since release for basically everything below Diamond (mostly masters+) which is from 82-95% of the playerbase.
Which is a massive issue, that players like these face such an unstoppable wall of a healer, that can dish out some good damage and is nigh unkillable with their (Rank appropriate) skills.
It is, it hurts the e-sports side of the game (Which is the major forcus), which is also hurting the competetive game mode. The game never recovered from changes such as Mercy 2.0, Brig and to some extent Moira for lower ranks. It has made certain heroes not even useable at these ranks, when they previously were decently playable.
They were, Mercy was an introduction healer, to make the game have ease, for players with no FPS abilities (Good idea, but hard to balance), the problem came, when they disregarded this as a balancing point. If a hero is meant to be “Easy to use/Introduction hero”, it needs to have hard drawbacks to how hard it is to play other heroes. This became a problem, when Ana was introduced and was clearly leagues harder than Mercy. Same for Rein, when another Barrier tank (orisa) got introduced, that was also fundamentally harder to use than Reinhardt.
The issue that arises, when you do not account for character skills, is problems like 90% playrate, insane winrates.
For heroes like Mercy, Moira and Rein, they to an extent have to be very limited in overall peak performance, as they are to limited in skill expression to showcase it.
For moira it was a lot worse than Rein and Mercy, cause her core kit design allowed her to branch far out from her normal role, without that cost (Rein and Mercy both, are heavily limited in both how much damage they can do and how often they can do it, because of their core role objective) Moira has free reign to pump out a lot of damage, while dot healing, orb healing or the other way around, healing a lot, while her orb deals significant damage, at the same time she is hard to punish, gets free mobility and survive abilities, that are far easier to land than regular heroes. All in all this creates a massive imbalance in the roles and is why Moira always dominates low ranks.
That is exactly good game design, cause your role is healing and supporting, theirs is killing off backlines (Supports). You are so stuck up on “flawed game design”, that you do not understand the fundamental design of a support or flanker.
This is irrelevant, whether or not her damage can be outhealed is pointless, so can other sources of damage as well. Her near always 90-100% accuracy at 0 requirements, means that her damage is constant and so is her healing. If you calculate the average accuracy of a lot of other heroes at those lower ranks, then her damage/health regain output, far outweighs their ability to do similar damage (with the added difficulty that they need to aim it well often), i can even show you the calculations.
The problem is her overall kit. Like if she didn´t have leech, it would be totally fine. Or if she couldn´t heal herself with the orb instead. The fact is too much of her kit synergizes in actually doing significant burst or healing to herself at no skill requirement, downside or counterplay.
I can see you like to make up things as you see fit, but she was never meant to be a flanker counter. Brig was and was stated as such. According to developers
“Moira’s cutting-edge capabilities make her a mobile healer and damage dealer capable of adapting to any situation. Her main attack is Biotic Grasp , which she can use to either heal allies or sap an enemy’s life force. Biotic Grasp’s primary fire sprays a cone of energy that heals all teammates within range, draining biotic energy while active, which will replenish slowly over time. Her alternate fire is a beam that tethers to enemies, dealing damage and siphoning health. Draining her foes’ health regenerates Moira’s biotic energy even faster, allowing more healing for her allies.”
There was not a single mention of her ability to counter flankers, or that it was even meant to be. She was meant to do damage and healing, which is fine, but the reality is she did it as such ease, that she ended up being a counter to flankers, cause they couldn´t pump out the skill needed vs her lack of such.
So no, your opinion of what Moira is, is a fairy tale. She is just bustedly easy to play, meaning that low ranks suffer under her reign more than anyone else does. Healers were never free kills for Genji´s and Tracer´s cause both were played less in lower ranks (Tracer rarely being played at all in those ranks).
Why do you keep on pushing your completely wrong opinions ?
Watch any pro gameplay of lucio´s heck watch “tips” videos of lucio´s and they will actively tell you that Lucios is both great for handling and dealing with flankers (as far as support capabilities goes).
using a 10 s cooldown to get the team in a 5v6 with your live secured to boot, is already extremely favourable and all most always a guaranteed win. So without follow up for your immeadiate death following that, you are most likely gonna win the following team fight without ults swinging the tide.
No it isn´t her beam is hitscan, forgiving and her orb can go around corners fine, while it slows down as well. She has quite a bit of leniency in fighting people high ground compared to other heroes that actively need to aim and is now forced to aim at “more hidden” targets.
That is why the games lower ranks are as badly affected by it ? Despite no flankers being present, Moira still dominates hard, in Meta´s where the top ranks play no Moira at all.
a
It absolutely is, the overall sustainability, of aoe heals or burst (because you often stack double main healer, something that wasn´t a thing, when Mercy was the only main healer, or even with Mercy/Ana) is far higher than back then. It is why they have addressed it a tiny bit to begin with.
Moira and Brig wasn´t a solution against something that was overpowered (Tracer i pressume you are talking about). Tracer was never overpowered, seen how clearly she was never used by anyone but 5% of the playerbase. She on the otherhand had clear counters (Mccree and Mei), who both were extremely weak and was laughably countered by the meta Dive, that featured Tracer, because DM was so broken, that it prevented, CC, healing and damage from any target that was jumped and inside. Meant characters like Mccree was free kills, cause you couldn´t even peel him (because of DM).
It wouldn´t be boring, it would be proper balancing. I see you lack the understanding to think about Skill=reward, Ease=payoff and the likes. That is what leads to horribly overperforming heroes that dominate all ranks.
Again dive was a problem yes, but again this was because of DM and not Tracer at all. Tracer had plenty of counters and plenty of weaknesses. She on the other hand didn´t have to face em because of OP tanks and weak counters as usual.
But you still have to weigh this against core game designs, like flanking and supporting. If there aren´t inherent design weakness or strength to these roles, they become pointless (case in point, look at Tracer right now, buffed and is still piss weak, because flanking is not viable at all, cause sustain is beyond easily done constantly).
and just about everything else…yes she was designed to be able to deal with flankers…shes also quite good at dealing with like everything else outside of tanks…oversteps her boundaries too easily quite often (and with very little effort)
its the same thing that brig suffered from (especially early on)
1 Like
I don’t need developers to think for me. Your proof is they didn’t specifically mention it in the blurb you quoted so she’s not meant to give flankers difficulty…is this serious?
enter all the Genji mains crying about Moira
Again…
You cannot build a hero to soft counter mobile flankers with a high aim component, the core of their kit/defense is that they are difficult to hit and can engage/disengage at will
Brig was introduced as a tool to assist with dive, which includes a lot of flankers.
2 Likes
Or maybe instead of such an easy solution, they could have designed a slippery type of hero like Lucio, he was never a free kill. Or at least makes Moira take at least half the effort as her opponents to kill them. Or delegate her to more of a niche, off healer status (less healing) right now she doesn’t have much of a big down side, she can easily peel while still outputting a lot of healing.
They really don’t. Counters generally aren’t harder to play than the heroes they’re supposed to be countering. It’s why Sombra’s hack is a lock on.
1 Like
Funny how this logic of “you cant nerf x because the problem is actually y” only ever applies to a small handful of heroes. Any other hero that ever approached the chosen fews viability were smashed in the face with the nerfhammer with zero questions asked.
How difficult a hero is to play is irrelevant to how overpowered their potential is. It comes back to…
1 Like
Despite this was never the case. The only “free kill” healer was and is Zenyatta, well unless this Zenyatta got aim, then he can kill himself about as fast as most DPS.
Lucio is actually more “unkillable” then Moira, and Mercy always was super evasive as well, and Ana has nade + sleep dart to defend herself.
But the main problem with Moira is not that she is hard to kill, the main problem is the insane amount of healing she puts out.
A Tracer for example can technically not kill a Moira that is healed by her orb and her attack at the same time, no matter how good the Tracer is.
The only heroes that can kill her is that with super high burst damage, that negate most of her healing.
The heroes Moira counters already have built in skill check - they are more difficult to play than most heroes.
People who use this skill check excuse really just want things easy for themselves.
2 Likes
In case nobody is in team chat, i’d say we just need a support who can directly deal with flankers, like Symmetra could. She can easily deal with a Tracer or Genji, those two being the most popular flankers. Either we put Symmetra back in the support role or have another support who can provide map coverage without the need of team chat.
except if you were main heals back then you literally didn’t have good tools for dueling.
mercy legit wasn’t designed to duel but rather to run away until the problem (flanker) was dealt with by teammates. and she’s still that way btw.
and then ana required/s you to risk your entire life on landing a high cd delayed shot on takes with high mobility and small hitboxes who might also have an ability to negate the shot too.
1 Like
The false premise here is “needed”.
We didn’t “need” a monstrosity like Brigitte to end dive. Something much less would have done it.
1 Like
I have said it a lot of times, but if people who who played healers were “free kill” then it’s their own fault, not the heroes they were playing.
People say Moira is a skill check for bad DPS players, but in reality the hero was actually made for bad support players to compete without needing to be on an equal footing mechanically.
1 Like
I thought Brigitte was added to counter dive, because Moira sure didn’t. She came out during dive and wasn’t used lol.
2 Likes
Like actual nerfs to dives core heroes. Brig shouldn’t have been released with the intention of stopping dive.
1 Like