It was the wrong answer and it has destroyed the game.
To destroy Dive it wouldn’t have helped to nerf Tracer and Genji. It had to be the dive tanks, who were the enablers.
It has been abundantly clear after, that neither Tracer nor Genji were ever OP.
Well yes, except the core Dive comp didn´t last as long as the core Goats comp. As we saw most of dive compositions was drastically different depending on which META we were in. Moth being radically different, only having 1 support and 2 tanks of the normal dive lineup now mostly.
Yeah you have said this exact line multiple of times, but this is the lie you keep thinking is true.
GOATS themselves said, they didn´t create GOATS to deal with Double sniper. Niether did anyone else do tank heavy comps to deal with Double sniper. Double sniper at it´s peak was at most a meta comp for 50% of all pro games (Hanzo, the lowest snipers pickrate).
Cause they themselves litterally said, that is why they did it, you are the one spinning the words here. If the creators have outright said, that the way you put it “GOATS to deal with Double sniper” is factually incorrect, why do you keep furthering that lie ?
They have said, why they chose and happened upon the GOATS comp and it was 0 to do with countering Double Sniper specifically, it just happened to counter every comp that was ever made.
Cause instead of shield, it needed to say sniper, my bad.
You keep talking about damage creep but the role of damage has little more power compared to release, where as mitigation and healing has near 100% more burst, aoe and damage compared to release. Talking about power creep is just another way of you trying to pin it on something that is factually inaccurate. Snipers weren´t used, outside of when Mercy was so OP that she could litterally not be countered unless potentially one shot. After this supports destroyed dive to this day still, with brig and moira. The rework for Hanzo, that made him overtuned at start, now had no counters either, the issue here was again on supports, not him and DPS.
That video is season 1 OWL. Moth meta litterally began before season 1.
OWL season 1: January 10th, 2018
Moth rework: August 25th 2017
… jesus christ…
First off, you use stylose as a reference, nice. I got way more credibility to my name than he does.
Second, all he does is use 1 week of GM stats during the start of the Hanzo rework. Wow real quality data collection. Second that video still showcases Rein, Zarya, Zen, Mercy nearly all at equal to higher winrates and far higher pickrates than even the so called “OP” double snipers.
Did you even care to watch the video ? Even when he dropped from GM to Masters, Genji has equal pickrate to Widowmaker at a higher winrate than her. Yeah wow, what an insane power she has, that she was litterally outclassed by Genji in top 4% of games, compared to top 1%.
11:15 in the video “maybe not so much video, if you aren´t in Grandmaster”. Stylosa himself literally points out how the stats already showcased that for 95% of games, it wasn´t even double sniper, so much as it was just another grav/dragon meta. Even going down to 80% of games (plat and below) Hanzo is showing in 33% of games now.
Did you even watch the video, seeing as it doesn´t point to anything you are saying.
You wanna try again and actually showcase a single credibly source stating exactly with evidence that they were so called the root issue of GOATS, cause we have loads to say they weren´t. The inventors of the cly omp to start with.
Holy hell, this is big, i am the one without a “leg to stand on”. You lied, called you out here. By Goats own words getting twisted by you, to mean something they have NEVER STATED.
You don´t know when MOTH meta was and showcased a season 1 OWL video with widow clips, that is during MOTH meta, not Dive, as i correctly already asserted was the point at, which Widow was even run in a dive composition.
Yeah at best i know the difference between a comp and a meta. You surely don´t and you surely lie a lot. It isn´t surprising you have been caught on this so much it is embarrassing to think, that i can ever make you admit you are lying.
Cheers Kaz, keep up the lies, this comment will once again stand to showcase not 1, not 2, but 3 major lies (At this point you can´t even claim it as mistakes anymore).
Moira was an issue cause of what she did and what she enabled, even on release she was and to this day still dominates 85% of players games, that being only diamond, masters and GM, sometimes not having her as a support top option.
Brig enabled dive counters and disabled dive itself. Moira just enables healers to have way too much value at way too little effort and has insane numerical values compared to the role beforehand.
So she is def an issue as well, she just wasn´t the issue that destroyed dive and got the instant attention.
Flanking being to valuable was caused, by DM and dive tanks being too oppressive especially on Flankers already weak counters, Mccree and Mei. So don´t pin it on one over performing aspect. Fact is, that they should never ever have taken the brig route to fix this issue and Moira as a concept isn´t bad, she was just extremely poorly executed with another hero having insanely skewed effort to reward ratio.
I mean sure, if you ignore every rank from Bronze to plat since her release than yeah. While moira has only once been universally the Meta, Moira has comfortably been a dominant meta hero through the vast majority of the player bases games, that is worth mentioning.
CSGO had its highest player numbers ever and tournament viewerships these couple years. CSGO is in fact still growing.
Ahh there we have it “Abused a broken one hit mechanic” yes a broken one hit mechanic, that like Tracer, was never really a majorly postive winrate in any rank but the highest one in the game. Calling snipers “broken” and that people got to ranks because of them, is you not acknowledging that you are the one biased and wrong, every stat we have prove, that snipers are in fact some of the hardest heroes to play for players in all ranks but the absolute top.
No point in arguing with Kaz, about 90% of his 8.8k posts is just him keeping up lies and twisting words to try and seem like he is still right, but anyone with the ability to read and research themselves, knows what he is doing.
Feel free to somehow prove when most people quit the game, that trophy is for sure granted to Moth meta and Mercy, but go on, lets hear how it was Double sniper. We at least know from viewer participation, that GOATS killed off more viewers for OWL, than ever before, so that comp is also heavily in favor of making more people quit the game, than your so called claim about it being Double sniper.
it isn´t a surprise to see you rock two hold mouse click down heroes, you must really think you are mechanically gifted at gaming ? But your inaccuracy of any real evidence aside Brig has been going strong in high ranks at 9% pickrate with 54.33% winrate, yeah i guess we GM players are just in need of “improving and adapting”.
1.1 Mccree was the last Meta hero, who is still weaker than he was on realease, back when he had stronger right clicks and sniper capabilities.
The fact that you are so blinded by lies you believe, instead of looking at the stats is alarming. I mean you can litterally hear it from the best coaches and players throughout history of the game, all metas made around those roles etc.
Tanks never have the values they did back then. During double shield, pumping out nearly 30k damage was the AVERAGE for the tanks combined. Which was equal to two hanzos (most popular DPS at the time). So stop being a sheep, just blindly screaming like the rest of the players in your ROLE, that don´t care about researching.
These posts, you should read em, one was about Taimou and later on several other pros agreeing with him, that Tanks especially but also Supports are the most “Impactfull/Important roles”.
I’d prefer that the mobility flankers were needed, and we got more complex supports instead. But here we are, buffing the mobility flankers.
Which will lead the anti flanker heroes to double down on their designs.
It is a thing.
see comment below pls
Kind of irrelevant, video games have no inherent “death factor”, we haven´t had em long enough for there to be proof, that games cannot live forever. So that is just a terrible cop out.
that is one way to think about it, another is that i am trying to annoy the hell out of this guy.
he is generally mean to people and it was a devil’s advocate kind of argument
Why would you want to talk about Overwatch in 20, 60, 70 years and not now?
Overwatch started declining after what? 2 years? While games like Counterstrike and LoL have been going on for much, much longer and are still going strong, if not increasing in strength.
Overwatch could have been so much more with better choices by the dev team. Today there is nothing but a skeleton crew left, so we won’t see but tweaks until OW2.
Ana dominated all ranks but bronze in pickrate for the entire tenure of GOATS, what do you mean.
I wouldn’t say they destroyed it but they definitely made it significantly worse and really solidified the supports are brain dead stereotype
Yet somehow she still has the highest support winrate in GM, and second highest pickrate, just behind ana.
Why do you say these things with such confidence when you have no idea whether she’s actually good or not?
Ah yes it totally wasn’t all the ridiculous things leading up to them such as
Beyblade and triple tank meta after they massively overbuffed Ana after her release
The rushed Mercy rework which dominated the game for a year
The refusal to nerf dive overbearing dive comps and instead introducing and buffing heroes to compete with them
Any potential heroes that even could be a decent meta counter are purposefully kept in the gutter (Symmetra’s 2nd rework getting neutered during double shield, anyone?)
I dont think people realize Brigitte is garbage without her E ability. That thing is single handedly making her viable. They DID neuter her.
i didnt say that, and personally i think overwatch should have been talked about since day 1.
i was simply saying that everything declines due to time, and while i agree that overwatch could have been more than a successful game, it was a argument meant to simply annoy Vendemar because he said it wasn’t.
overwatch IMO, as a competitve game, needs a rework to the match maker, relative ranking system, and the definition of the roles.
No, she didn’t dominate.
She was always picked alot (except that time where she was completely destroyed by nerfs), but that has as much to do with her being FUN, unlike alot of heroes, especially the new ones.
But on the battlefield she doesn’t dominate even remotely like Moira or Brigitte. Ana always feels fair to fight against.
I wish they’d give old Symmetra back tbh
…and yet she’s still a must-pick in GM
She’s not neutered if she’s still incredibly powerful.
There is huge difference between being meta and dominate, right now Ana is meta, but Moira dominates lower ranks (85% in fact) cause not only does she equal ana in pickrate in most of those ranks, she far outclasses her winrate as well. Also during GOATS, Moira was just as bad in low ranks as now.
She was the most picked hero in the game. She absolutely did.
Anti nade is still busted and you say this when literally all Moira has is healing
why are you lying
Literally as we speak Ana usurps moira in pickrate and winrate as low as Gold, and it’s very close in silver. This was also reflected in GOATS, except moira was even worse in GOATS.