MMR protects OW Content creator's rank and profits

yes. it should solely be based on SR levels. Not this hidden MMR rating number based on the amount of wins and losses you’ve had.

And I never said that you did.
I was replying to this:

Wrong.
My MMR adjusted extremely fast and actually boosted the climb.
Around the 5th win I reached a point were I got 30+ SR for a win and it ended up at ~25 again when I got close to my new peak.

No, it doesn’t.
The matches aren’t fixed in advance and also not for a desired outcome.
The estimated outcome is a 50:50 chance to win for each team, but none of them is desired to win. The outcomes are also not fixed in advance, cause the winner is determined by which of the two teams performs better than predicted.

Dude. This statement is so socialistic in principle. Pretty much you’re saying: Because a player or players win TOO much, we must handicap EVERYONE so EVERYONE, losers included, are “equal” when they “compete”. This is rigging dude. This is not based on pure skill/performance.

You aren’t getting handicapped :joy:

What a stretch.

My sponge cake has cinnamon in it. It adds a subtle hint to the taste.

Is that deceptive and dishonest? Have I rigged my sponge cake?

They have publicly confirmed MMR exists.

I have no people wanting fairer matches or believing there are improvements that can be made to the competitive system but to say it’s rigged sounds like someone is just not happy with their rank.

You obviously don’t know how MMR works. MMR is used to rig the game. Team A will have MMRs close to each other versus Team B with another level of MMR and depending on that level will determine the odds/probability of who wins the match.

Educate yourself of the truth and open your eyes.

2 Likes

I think you are mistaken.

Many of not most of the Top500 streamers have done unranked to GM/T500 “educational” streams and some of them doing it in just one sitting, essentially proving that they belong there regardless of any kind of MMR.

I am all for an MMR reset but your reasoning is flawed.

Wrong. It’s not about not being happy or being happy about your rank. It’s about FAIR and HONEST competition with absolutely no rigging to which Team has the higher probable odds of winning due to MMR’s existence and what it’s designed to do.

1 Like

Dev quote from the link you posted:

Just like the OP from the thread you linked to you are saying the complete opposite of what is said in the source you use to verify your claim.

It also has a part about winning/losing streaks and again it says the exact opposite:

I’ve responded to this before and I’ll say it one more time.

I have no doubt that GM players can’t get back into GM. They’ve done it once, they can do it again. Those “unranked to GM videos”, to me, are garbage. You can easily level up in QP with your high rank player friends (which I’m sure these guys did), take that hidden MMR that will give him higher chances to rank higher. QP MMR has an affect on an account’s very first competitive placement matches as it doesn’t have any other history to help determine it’s match making. Then, VOILA, Unranked to GM. Of course it requires skill to still be able to do that–I’m not denying their skills. The real main point is MMR is not real competition.

Look. There’s no other way to prove what I’m saying other than REMOVING MMR from Competitive. I don’t doubt the awesomeness of Unranked to GM, but it’s INCREDIBLY flawed and downright misleading. Remove MMR.

Incomplete without evidence. Your personal experience just isn’t admissible. Your MMR changes weren’t “observable” so you’re just waving your hands discounting other effects like volatility and pbsr. A worthless anecdote.

Shipping around hidden calculated odds for desired result. In this case the desired result is a statistical one. The process is still rigging the outcome, as per definition.

In fact, it’s maximally rigged since a lesser statistical rigging wouldn’t tune for such strict odds, it would accept 70/30 or 99/1. Better still is not rigging at all.

Wrong. Players are cherry-picked into some lobbies and not others, based on hidden criteria and rigging for desired odds/outcomes. Despite being same SR label, they are discriminated on differently. It isn’t random transparent selection process = tampered selection along hidden criteria = rigging as per definition.

Imagine trying to wiggle out of the terminology.
Thankfully Merriam-Webster > your personal story about climbing. MMR is in the game, it rigs matches, and it needs to go. There are mechanisms for competition that are totally transparent, and don’t fix the outcomes/odds.

Bro…this is my last response to you as you’re just not getting it. This Dev quote and response IS SOCIALISTIC.

“…it determines the % chance for each team to win based on the match it made.” Bro…THIS IS RIGGING. Don’t you get it yet? Because there are players/teams that can dominate like crazy because they’re just THAT GOOD, the DEVS/MMR handicaps their WIN RATE, thus putting EVERY single player on the same playing field. It’s NO LONGER about a player’s SKILL/Performance. It’s more about how many wins and losses they’ve incurred. If you truly care about getting better and your rank, you would want MMR OUT of competitive play so as to see the TRUE reflection of your skill and performance that can only be produced by GENUINE Competition. Period.

If it’s not on the box label of ingredients.

We know :slight_smile: Which is why it is 100% safe to state the game is rigged. It’s not a claim it’s a fact.

But they aren’t telling kids this as they log on. They need to slap a “Warning: Contents Rigged” right as they log-on and they need to make the alg transparent and auditable. Otherwise the mechanisms are nefarious and deceiptful.

Sounds like a grasp/leap or appeal to character attacks, instead of following the logic. This isn’t about yours/mine ranks but whether or not the matchmaker rigs matches. if matches are rigged, laddering process is tampered with, ranks lose integrity and meaning, and the ecosystem is a fake contest not a proper esport.

That’s literally word-for-word what is going on.
Does Merriam-Webster need to show up and > you?

Again, get the terminology right.

Players are algorithmically handicapped through a matchmaking process that rigs match outcomes (in odds, expectations) using hidden mmr.

You even quoted the dev statements that confirmed this lol.

1 Like

Bro was nice enough to provide me with a link to a dev quote that confirms my experience:

So you unironically think that removing matchmaking and throwing 12 random people together would be fair competition and good for the game while having about equally skilled teams matched against each other is rigging and a terrible thing to do?

I really think that we lack a common base from which we can continue this conversation :woman_shrugging:

Thank God :relieved:

I am getting the feeling that you are not a native speaker and this whole thing is a misunderstanding based on reading comprehension.

“determines” is meant as “ascertains”, not as “sets” or “fixes”.

All it does is finding them a match that is as equally skilled as possible.
Read the quote.

Rigging would be if it intentionally searched for lower skilled players to match them against to artificially maintain their high winrate.

As soon as you get to high GM/T500 there actually are players who have a winrate way beyond 50% because there is only a very small player pool and it often matches them against weaker players to reduce their Q times.

You don’t remove matchmaking. You remove the rigging. No data is used to ship the match except current SR. No hidden, discrimatory criteria to force odds/outcomes.

Matches are still fair (after equalization). People around 3000sr go into lobbies around 3000sr. The noise cancels out on both sides and people move to where they belong. For this you only need around 11 pools of skill differentiation (approx 2 for highpop ranks and 1 for edge ranks).

Then: Can you do what it takes to convert wins against an average backdrop (over random samples)? If yes then you get to climb.

In such a system you still get close/fair matches by way of SR metric, will would finally reflect skill level in the sense of winrate or ability to convert against others of similar winrate.

1 Like

Dude. It’s simple. Let the matchmaking be based solely off SR. Designing an algorithm to make your win rate close to 50% is rigging. Just remove the damn thing.

Defend your SR.

If you can’t hack it, then you don’t deserve it. Every champion will have to face a contender that seeks to dethrone him/her from their rank. Remove all barriers of rigging and let SR speak for itself. PERIOD. THIS is real competition.

MMR doesn’t allow this.

1 Like

That’s a byproduct of the rigging (for some that fall below handicapping signal/noise per rank thresholds). But it’s not how the (confirmed*) rigging directly works. The mmr rigging is more about cherrypicking players into lobbies for 50-50 match odds (desired result = close outcome).

Just to clarify because the trolls will jump on you for that.

there are patents that rig ladder progress, rig around likeability (endorsements and toxicity reports and whether you are healer), rig in-game params (dda), etc. they feature overwatch screenshots and are in active-use. but that’s not enough evidence for some so we’ll say those are documented evidence but not officially confirmed.

Correct. Stand by the metric as a representation of skill and as a fit-for-purpose representation of competitive ability.

1 Like

So you want to use SR to rig the outcome of a match?
I thought you are against rigging? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

If you use the SR values to match equally skilled players with and against each other you are again forcing a 50% winrate.

It wouldn’t be rigging since the odds/outcomes aren’t forced (even in statistical expectation). Plus it would be totally transparent, simple, and less toxic (nothing to blame - it’s just random unlike cherry-picked SBMM lobbies or EOMM which forces churn).

You find 12 ppl around the same SR and ship the match. There will be streaks and stomps and it may be unfun but it will be ethical and unadulterated competition.

The odds/outcomes would manifest themselves and you could make predictions about stats and behaviours using SR averages, but the matchmaker would have no access to this. No analytics no data history just SR.

You aren’t fixing anything except SR ranges (which would relax over queue time for lowpop/sparsity). You might also fix region and attempt to match by groupsize. But any tampering or discriminating down to the indivudal is strictly not present.

If people convert at the rate of 50% it is a byproduct of them being roughly where they belong, not a hidden forcing. i.e. there is no algorithmic handicapping, no lobbies tailored around individual players, etc.

1 Like

If in your system the SR is still an accurate expression of skill then the expected odds are 50:50.

This applies to an MMR based system just as much as to an SR based one.

Why you think that this is a problem with MMR based systems but perfectly fine in SR based ones is beyond me since the cause is exactly the same in both cases:

People are getting matched with people of equal skill and nearly exclusively climb if they improve or drop if their performance gets worse.

Good luck convincing the devs to deliberately make matchmaking worse and the game less fun.

I prefer an approach that enhances the overall match quality - no matter how “unethical” you find it :wink:

1 Like