Mercy's nerf was unnecessary

BadWidowEU-2419 · August 13, 2018, 3:22am

Sorry but a 1:5 ability that’s earned is much better than a 1:1 that’s not earned. That’s just my opinion though since that I what we are doing after all. Giving our opinions.
Titanium explains it well

Surely the negative impacts of letting your team die would make such a reason to wait for your team die obsolete.

Quest-11845 · August 13, 2018, 3:26am

I don’t agree with that at all. And you have given me no reason to agree with it. Ults have passive charge, and Mercy has a VERY easy time charging her ult compared to Zen or Ana etc outside of VERY specific situations.

1 button press : 1 rez = the healthiest rez has been in this game. Tempo rez has always been the way to truly play it, and now with limited tempo rez ability + so much else more with Valk, there is a huge value there.

As much as there have been demands for Mass Rez being put back into the game, there have been very little reasons offered as to why it was healthier outside of appealing to pick rate in pro/gm scenes, etc. The very thing some of them will argue against given a different subject.

Nah. 1:1 is worth pursing, and may lead to a decent level of Mercy. 1:1-5 was very gamey, exploitative. Rez on E as is might not be the answer, resource meter, etc etc. But no, mass rez is not something, imho, that needs to be considered at all at this point.

anon71386812 · August 13, 2018, 3:27am

I see what you mean.
The difference is that other heroes have been targeted because their heroes are trash tier and the insults had to do with how much their heroes are useful.
Mercy mains have been targeted with personal attacks. “Brainless”, “no skill retards”, “victims”, “martyrs” like you said in a previous post of yours.
Torb threads I’ve seen revolved around “welp, stop playing torb”.

Quest-11845 · August 13, 2018, 3:29am

I can’t take responsibility for these various subgroups labeling mains of another hero as mindless or anything like that. People, on average, are stupid.

Everyone has received personal attacks, etc, been insulted for what they play. Just how online gaming is.

None of that really has anything to do with the balancing of a kit though. We have to ignore it tbh. It’s irrelevant.

anon71386812 · August 13, 2018, 3:30am

Alright, was nice.

2characters

BadWidowEU-2419 · August 13, 2018, 3:32am

5min25sec to get mass Resurrect without doing anything (correct if I’m wrong). Now it’s 2min30sec to get 5 resurrects without doing anything.

No one has convinced me that this is the case.

Why Resurrect as an CD ability will not work and a bunch of other stuff

Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State

Resurrect is currently the reason Mercy is overpowered.

How so, you might ask, citing Mercy’s Resurrect statistics from before her rework and now, which are very close in numerical value?

Ignoring the process of elimination that would lead us to Resurrect in the first place, the difference lies within how Resurrect is used.

First is the availability of Resurrect now versus Mercy’s 1.x versions. Today, Resurrect runs on a consistent 30 second cooldown regardless as to the Mercy player’s performance. Killing a Mercy repeatedly does not impede upon their ability to return and use Resurrect; the only thing Mercy needs to have Resurrect available is time, and nothing in the game can deprive her of that. Mercy 1.x, on the other hand, needed to fill a resource meter in order to use Resurrect. Sure, that resource charged passively over time, but at an incredibly slow rate proportional to the requirement. If the player were to just wait for that resource to fill passively, they would be waiting 5 minutes and 25 seconds, which could be half the match by itself.

Anyway, because Mercy needed to fill a resource in order to use Resurrect on an acceptable basis, it was far easier to impede its availability by targeting or eliminating the Mercy. The time respawning and walking back to the fight would otherwise be time spent healing, shooting, or amplifying damage, depriving her of ultimate charge and therefore a use of resurrect.

Second is the optimal usage for the ability. Given Resurrect’s current availability and single-target mechanics, its optimal usage is obvious; it is best used to reverse the first pick in a fight, operating as a 1-up for an ally in every poke-at-choke scenario. This one-up functions as a buffer that disincentivizes an enemy engagement after the enemy gets a pick and therefore a numbers advantage, resulting in a continuation of the poke battle and a second chance for Mercy’s team to get the pick instead. As a result, Resurrect now stops the snowball before it begins, making it much more reliable when it comes to post-rez success. Preventing a snowball is much easier than trying to reverse a snowball after it has already gained velocity.

Mass-Resurrect, on the other hand, had variation in its optimal time of usage due to its inconsistent availability and its variation in numerical value. If it were to be used as a tempo-rez every time, it would simply be outmatched by the post-rework Resurrect because it cannot compete with 2.x’s cooldown rate. Thus, in order to maintain a good numerical value, a balance between tempo and mass-revives needed to be held. Finding that balance and by extension the optimal time and placement for Resurrect was difficult, making the ability harder to use overall.

As mentioned before, however, it is more difficult to reverse a snowball after it has gained velocity. Thus, Mercy 1.x’s Resurrect was far less reliable in post-rez success than Mercy’s 2.x’s Resurrect.

Resurrect is also used much earlier in the fight than it was before, reducing the window to prevent it from what used to be anywhere between the first pick and after the fifth kill to just the first pick. There is a smaller window to stop it.

As though the above advantages weren’t enough to push Resurrect over the edge, Resurrect also no longer occupies one of the team’s six ultimates. An ultimate is not lost upon its expense.

To recap:

Availability is consistent and unaffected by performance. It is easier to have resurrect ready to be used now than it was with 1.x.

Optimal usage is predefined, making it much easier to use Resurrect to its maximum capacity now than with 1.x.

Now prevents snowballs before they begin, which is much easier than stopping them after they are already in motion. Much more likely to end in success.

Is now more difficult to prevent through preliminary action, as it is used much earlier now.

No longer takes up an ultimate slot.

While the number of revived players every match may be nearly identical, the mechanics of the newer Resurrect makes it far more powerful in application.

Functionality:

When the rework first went live, there were already a lot of restrictions on Resurrect. It had the longest ability cooldown in the game by far, a 5 meter range, and a line-of-sight requirement.

And yet, Resurrect, and by extension Mercy, was absurdly overpowered.

Mercy’s ultimate, Valkyrie, provided additional uses of Resurrect; three extra uses, to be exact. In the first post-rework patch to Mercy, that number was dropped to 1. On top of this, Guardian Angel’s cooldown no longer reset upon Resurrect’s activation, making hit-and-run revives more dangerous.

The developers came back to see that once again, Resurrect, and by extension Mercy, was absurdly overpowered.

In response, the developers implemented a 1.75 second cast time and a 75% movement speed reduction to Resurrect. To top it off, Resurrect could now be interrupted not only by CC, but by knockbacks as well. If interrupted, Resurrect would begin its 30 second cooldown.

The developers returned to see that yet again, Resurrect, and by extension Mercy, was absurdly overpowered.

To fix this, the develop- Okay, hold up.

How the hell did the developers not figure out the issue by this time? Were they not paying attention to their own actions?

You took a mess of an ability with a metric [REDACTED]-ton of exceptions, and then you applied even more exceptions to that ability. How have you not seen the issue yet? Have you ever stopped to think about why you need to apply these exceptions, and what these exceptions resemble?

Fast forward to today, and there isn’t much left in Resurrect that can be reasonably nerfed given its current position… and yet, it is still game-breaking. Have you every stopped to think about why that might be?

Have you ever considered why those exceptions are exceptions?

What abilities in the game have a downtime comparable to a 30 second cooldown?

What abilities in the game have a cast time longer than one second, and movement penalties and ability disables beyond that?

Ultimates.

Resurrect is an ultimate. Look around at the other abilities in the game. The only ones with comparable downtimes, cast times, and cast penalties are ultimates.

Resurrect - 1.75 second cast time. 75% movement speed reduction, inability to use attacks and abilities. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Configuration: Tank - 1.5 second cast time. Inability to move, use attacks, or use abilities. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Rocket Barrage - 3 second cast time. Frozen movement (including vertical movement). Ability is active during cast time.

Earthshatter - .6 second cast time (+any time it takes to hit the ground). Ability activates after cast time ends.

Dragonblade - 1 second cast time. Inability to use attacks and abilities while casting. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Tactical Visor - 1.4 second cast time. Inability to use attacks and abilities while casting. Ability activates after cast time ends.

Sound Barrier - .8 second cast time (typically, can be reduced by moving onto a higher surface. Can also be increased by jumping beforehand or moving onto a lower surface). Inability to use attacks and abilities while casting. Ability activates after cast time ends.

When you need to add self-inflicted penalties onto an ability that match or exceed the penalties imposed by ultimates, that’s a pretty clear sign that said ability is an ultimate. Thus, it should not be a basic ability.

Even Jeff Kaplan has outright stated this issue:

“We tried to move Resurrection to a secondary ability, and the ability, right now, in current Overwatch, isn’t playing out as a secondary ability; it’s playing out like another ultimate ability”

January 25th, 2018.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P1Md792fF8

6:10 - 6:23.

This is why Resurrect as a basic ability will not work. Trying to force an ultimate into a basic ability is suicide not only from a balance perspective, but also from a gameplay perspective.

Gryphon-12323 · August 13, 2018, 3:36am

I honestly think that if you can kill an entire team by pressing Q, you should also be able to rez an entire team by pressing Q. But that’s only my opinion.

Quest-11845 · August 13, 2018, 3:36am

Yo. I am aware of the Titanium thread. You have done a lot lately t o make sure you link that in all kinds of different threads. If I wanted to comment on that, I’d be in that thread.

I see no reason that 1:1-5 should be brought into this game. I think 1:1 is just simpler, healthier, unexploitable, simpler, etc. I mean, look at other games that have rez. Is it ever 1:1-5? Or is it all 1:1?

0 reason, imho, for a return to mass rez. Imho, time better spend discussing change to current Mercy, or speculation on another rework. Within a 1:1 paradigm.

1:1-5, imho, needs to be let go of.

Kurrokitty-1639 · August 13, 2018, 3:38am

Fair enough and I agree.

But what ISNT FAIR is also removing an ability because its not fun to play against. There were many chances to put LOS checks on the ability and give it a cast as well as remove the invulnerability frames. Yet none of these avenues were explored.

So how is it fair for the players who have to use this hero due to sluggish changes? She had a hard time keeping up with supports before her rework so they gave her 60hps back then. Only now with her current state and nothing in her base kit change but single target rez. Why now change her healing when it is not the problem?

I dont want her a must pick or shaping the meta anymore than the next person. But she should not be made useless and boring to those who are willing to play her.

Either get rid of her crutch (ressurect) or rework it as an ultimate with actual counter-play added to it so its fair to the people playing against her and fun for those who play her. No ultimate in the game is fun to play against, shall we remove them and make them a single target instead? Of course not, that’s silly and so is removing rez and making it a normal ability. It has too many exceptions placed on it to be a normal ability: a 75% slow, 1.75s cast, LOS, it must be within a 5m range, the longest CD in the game of 30s and the ONLY CD that does not reset on death… how is ANY of this fair?

The ability is strong that’s why all of those excpetions are added but that is also a reason to put it back as an ultimate or remove it completely. It’s being treated as an ultimatewith its exceptions but players are expected to use it as an ability?

This is a video game balancing a game around FUN mechanics needs to be apart of the design. And it can be done. She was fine for almost 2 years before players began whining about her after Ana was nerfed and gutted. You’d think people would have a heart seeing all these nerfs and for what? To make her better to play against but anyone who plays her has suffers?

I’m sure there are plenty of players that like her as boring as she is, great for them but they wouldn’t have even known about this iteration if Blizzard would have balanced her previous kit and ultimate. Hell her current ult was scraped during beta but in a scramble to “fix” what didnt need fixing they slapped this alpha build ult unto her made her former ult an ability and after 12 nerfs decided her healing is just too much to deal with so lets revert that instead of ressurect.

I think that is sad, unfair, and selfish if you want that for her player base or any hero for for that matter. But this is Overwatch… people are toxic and selfish and as long as their preferred heroes are fine they dont care if other heroes are dumpstered.

Ps… seems like a trend for balancing. An ability is not fun to play against so rather than tweak numbers or add some pit falls they remove the ability and replace it with something stronger and far more broken. Hanzo anyone?

BadWidowEU-2419 · August 13, 2018, 3:40am

Well no one has yet to argue the points he made effectively yet. Maybe you should give it a shot

Overwatch did pretty fine for 14 months with mass Resurrect. Things just started taking a toll when invulnerability came along. Also, Overwatch doesn’t have to be like every other game

Krishal-1793 · August 13, 2018, 3:50am

i call this a slap on the wrist rather than a nerf, shes still broken as usual, its just that all the support players atm are taking a break to tryout all the ana/lucio/moria buffs to see if they can find something even more broken

Quest-11845 · August 13, 2018, 4:05am

As far as I know Titanium argues for a form of mass rez, and I just don’t consider that an option. If something within that thread invalidated my position on 1:1 vs 1:1-5, I’m sure you would have utilized it by now.

Yeah, things change. C’est la vie.

BadWidowEU-2419 · August 13, 2018, 4:07am

Actually, I’m more or less arguing for his interpretation of a successful mass rework suggestion.

I don’t speak Germany.

Quest-11845 · August 13, 2018, 4:08am

I don’t understand how stating what you’re trying to argue has anything to do with what Titanium is arguing in the link you presented.

Afaik, Titanium argues for mass rez, and I am fundamentally against that due to what I outlined above within this thread. From my perspective, that’s just a point of agreeing to disagree, I have no motive to read through all that.

BadWidowEU-2419 · August 13, 2018, 4:09am

Sad face. Also,

I don’t speak Mexican either.

Quest-11845 · August 13, 2018, 4:10am

Good chat. Peace and love.

BadWidowEU-2419 · August 13, 2018, 4:10am

Bye love.

SquidSucker-1898 · August 13, 2018, 4:17am

so do I,
Doesn’t mean Mercy heals well. Lucio 's amp it up does the same hp/second, he cant keep people alive but the trade off is that is hits a potential 6 people (Valkyrie healing has almost the same stats as amp it up.) but i can already hear you saying that “its still good cos it lasts 15 seconds!” no.
It’s not ‘still good’ she cannot keep anyone alive IN HER ULTIMATE her ult is only good for its team damage boost, which is a failure in mercy’s design because she is a pacifist, in lore and personality.
mercy cannot keep people in a 1v1 with a Winston alive… c’mon, the only reason she’s even picked is because no matter how bad you play you will always get res - even something as simple as giving res a resource metre filled by healing where she can hold 2 charges, getting them from healing 1.5K would make mercy more rewarding - yet, that’s still against the point of a main healer, she shouldn’t be good because of resurrect, she should be good because of her healing.

she doesn’t feel heroic anymore, she feels like a buff dispenser who’s only job is to res, heal and damage boost, and with Valkyrie you don’t have to try and play well because you get res by default and Valkyrie spread your healing so you don’t need to prioritise.

boypig24-2782 · August 13, 2018, 5:36am

what negative impacts,can you please debunk my dying > staying alive with low hp argument,because it seems like you cannot.

BadWidowEU-2419 · August 13, 2018, 5:38am

Let’s see, the fact that you can get ult charge from the teammate that’s low on health, the fact that you can keep the momentum of the fight going and the fact that you can keep the tempo of the fight going. To make it clear, these are things you could get if you res and heal the low hp ally and if you just let your teammates die, you’d be disregarding these positives.

Did you know that tempo ressing is so much more better than letting your team get wiped to get a big res or are you one of those people who think the more people ressed=more value?