Mercy on the Experimental: Good Foundation, Poor Execution

[MrSandvich-21925]

@Titanium-1686

Can’t anymore because the old Overwatch Forums no longer exist.

As I already said, the Forums don’t constitute a valid source of evidence in the slightest. This is just another reason why:

@Titanium-1686

(most people won’t use a forum unless they have something to complain about)

@Titanium-1686

If we look to shortly after the rework

@Titanium-1686

Someone also conducted a forum survey in October of 2018

Moth Mercy seems to have created a bigger outcry amongst the community for reasons entirely unrelated to the new design itself, because of its ludicrous numerical balance. It continued to exist well, well into 2018, and left a major scar either way, rendering the stats you’re providing as even more invalid than before.

@Titanium-1686

The topics of statements such as “Mercy’s kit has some serious design and engagement issues” are not subjective.

The only thing that’s objective when it comes to this subject is its very subjectivity. Tons of arguments have been brought up both backing up the existence of Mercy’s design problems and denying it, ac well las counter arguments to both said stances.

No one has the right to elevate his subjective view as the objective truth, because anyone can debate against your arguments as well.

@Titanium-1686

That answer can be identified through the evidence.

If what you provided is supposedly “the evidence” of this, then you’ll have to find new stats to hold on, I’m afraid. You certainly have arguments though, even if I managed to debate against all of them in one of your YT videos regarding Mercy (https://youtu.be/KXpDDlQvPEg)

I don’t have much to add when it comes to this subject.

@Titanium-1686

the question “Was mass-Resurrect unhealthy?” has an objectively correct answer.

I disagree. Like, even if we ignore the actual community, even the devs themselves (who are supposedly experts in their fields) have clearly changed their minds on Mercy 1.0 and you can be sure it wasn’t a universal agreement between them.

@Titanium-1686

Resurrect used as a mass-Resurrect is a defensive ultimate. What’s on the Experimental Card right not is not viable as a defensive ultimate/mass-Resurrect.

It’s still called Mass Ressurect though and can output the exact same value and type of value as Mass Rez. Sure, its underpowered state does heavily decrease the chance of outputting said value (and rightfully so), but that doesn’t prohibit it from existing. You don’t stop referring to Widowmaker headshots as one - shots because they are very hard to land.

@Titanium-1686

you need to provide evidence in support of why what you are saying is true.

That’s the thing, I don’t have to debate against invalid evidence.

@Titanium-1686

Explain to me how the way you die matters if the end result is exactly the same.

Because context matters. People will always hate it when they die in a PvP game, but they will detest it when the situation that led to their death involved little to no way for them to defend themselves and/or the enemy killed them with little effort from their part, etc.

You have to look no further than IRL life as well. People hate it when someone does better, or even as well as them by using shortcuts and/or not putting the same effort as they did into something, at least according to them.

@Titanium-1686

However, that is not based upon what is and isn’t fair. It is based upon a feeling of what is and isn’t fair.

Please equate the two in your mind for the sake of the conversation, because, as I said, you don’t have the right to elevate your own view as the objective truth.

In this environment, both our stances are what we “believe” to be fair.

@Titanium-1686

objective fairness in game design is known as balance

Not exclusively so at all. The overall statistical performance of heroes we to which we have access doesn’t reflect the balance sate of each of their individual abilities, nor anything else related to the situational value of each hero (which in a game like Overwatch is absolutely crucial).

@Titanium-1686

There is no logical distinction between it and that same position applied to any other ability in the game. If we accept this approach, we immediately reach a point where literally everything goes… away. Because it feels unfair to someone when they die/lose to it.

Even if you disagree with the logical distinction I brought up, which is your right, well at this point is where the opinions of the majority of the player base (not the Forum player base) and/or dev team come into pace.

@Titanium-1686

And then, as I mentioned before, we run into the issue of “Is your convenience more important than my fun?” Answering “yes” to that question is how you kill off a large portion of your playerbase, as Mercy’s rework did to hers.

Okay, but one has to decide. Will you “kill” the fun of a major portion of Mercy mains, or of the general player base that doesn’t main Mercy.

It is a tough choice, but it must be ultimately made up to an extent and personally, I consider anything other than leaning towards what the majority of the player base wants as completely unreasonable.

@Titanium-1686

even when it’s objectively balanced.

According to who, exactly?

@Titanium-1686

But once again looking at the trends you mentioned, I’m sure one of them would be crowd control. People don’t like crowd control, even when it’s objectively balanced. However, those opinions can be boiled down to a legitimate, reasonable, and objective foundation that actually makes a lot of sense. If you’re alive, you should be able to play the game. You should have control over your own character. Nobody else should be able to prevent you from playing the game. This is at the very core of what makes a game a game; interactivity. If the player is spending too much time unable to interact with the game when they expect to be interacting with the game, there is something wrong. This is something that must be considered.

However, that’s not to say that we should remove crowd control entirely, as that would then quickly raise another one of those trends you mentioned. People will start complaining about mobility. This trend, just like the last one, is not unfounded. There is an objective reason in support of these feelings. In fact, in this case, there’s two. Crowd Control is one of the main mechanics keeping mobility in check. Without it, mobility would become much stronger. This would cause a balance issue. Mobile heroes would skyrocket in pickrates and dominate the meta. This is objectively unfair. Not only that, but it also violates another aspect of interactivity, particularly the principle that you should not be powerless against your enemies. If your enemy can do something that can harm you, you should be able to do something to answer it. This is awfully close to balance, as it is another type of fairness, but it is separate; you can have balance or imbalance without interactivity.

This is all very fair. Even though it’s a different thing to compare the damage that no CC will cause to the entire game to what no Mass Rez has caused to the Mercy player base, your argument about middle grounds still stands.

And I do agree that middle grounds are always the best. Hence why I haven’t expressed completely negative feelings against Mass Rez even once after the EXP’s implementation.

My stance is this: Mass Rez can exist in this game, only if it’s kept in - check numerically. Meaning, it must have a noticeable cast time, a reasonable range and LOS check.

You can make it charge faster, but that’s about it. Any other buffs and we run into the risk of Mass Rez rearing its ugly head balance - wise and it becoming the low skill - high reward mess that got it removed in the first place.

@Titanium-1686

You believe.

And you believe the opposite. Like, I don’t get what’s the problem here, unless you’re engaging in the delusional, arrogant mistake of considering only your opinions as subjective facts.

Needless to say they aren’t. My stance backed up by my argumentation has the exact same weight as yours.

@Titanium-1686

I’d be interested in seeing your evidence for that.

Here you go:

Mercy Survey - Results

After a week of number crunching and a bachelor’s degree in Excel, here are the results of the Mercy Survey I conducted a while back. (Note: I am still working on this, particularly on the actual written portions, which is why you won’t see much of that mentioned here. I didn’t want to make you guys wait longer than necessary, so this thread is to get you guys the main results as well as just get the public CSV out there. I’ll also say this here and at the end. If you’re interested in somethin…

From the same time period as the second poll you provided. Reportedly, over 60% of participants are Support mains.

@Titanium-1686

It just so happened that said role’s opinions weren’t any different that what I had assessed the overall playerbase’s to be.

I really doubt that.

@shale-11671

The enemy potentially having lost resources does not actually do this. It’s an advantage, not yet a win.

It is a fight - winning advantage. Sure, in a literal sense, they’re not the same thing, but that isn’t gonna yield anything more than a slight loosening of the conditions I previously set up for such Ultimates.