Mercy is being ignored?

[pkthebird-1549]

i think mercy is in a pretty good spot atm

Yeah, Mercy being bad at offense, defense, and support is good? I think I know what you mean. What is bad for Mercy is good for others? Like Ana got some serious buff back to back and people insist she was still trash pick. When Mercy got nerf of her 60 hp heals(On top other nerfs). Then Ana became top pick. Picking Mercy now can be considered throwing for feeding the other team. Apparently some of Top 500 Mercy players dropped to Masters, quit, and force to change to other characters.

[Arceus-2238]

Apparently she’s supposed to be ridiculously underpowered.

[anon47885920]

“idiot dps players” and “lazy developers”

Honestly, don’t remember when I said those things. People say a lot of things, if you give a timestamp, I’ll look into it. Generally I say “stupid dps” when I’m talking about those types that run off, die out of position, and expect a rez. Most likely was using it in that type of context. Also, what’s wrong with calling the [redacted because I don’t want to get another suspension] lazy? That’s not toxic at all lol.

[Razor-11248]

But she isn’t. She can’t really solo heal anymore but that’s it. Giving the Ana and Moira chances to be picked without people nagging that there isn’t a Mercy is such a heathly thing for this game and for Supports

[Justin-17714]

Now you’re just playing it down. A reasonable person would consider it as a personal insult.

or an overly sensitive one? bringing your knowledge into debate is a fact check, not an insult.

Opinions are subjective.

Yes, but the fact that mercy was a must pick and needed to be change is not subjective. By blizzard standards nothing should be a must pick, mercy was. therefore she was overpowered.

She wasn’t. She was balanced. Being balanced means her kit isn’t too strong.

she absolutely wasn’t. her Must pick status in the meta for 8 seasons is proof of that.

That also proves my assertion though.

It doesn’t? her pickrates haven’t gone down at all, while her win rates have. this means she is still being picked in every situation by the people who were playing her before, and not being picked in the situations she is supposed to be used in now.

When you still use this as an argument after more than a month

because pickrates haven’t gone down. mercy isn’t meta so her pickrate should be going down. the fact that it isn’t, shows she is being picked in unideal situations.

So ridiculously false. I mean, there really is no point continuing this if you’re just long to say nonsense like, “Mercy mains are all one tricks”.

I didn’t say that. I said that mercy has no transferable skills. so it stands that you wouldn’t be able to transfer mercy knowledge and skill to anyone.

This is doubly funny since you’re the same person calling out Ari for being biased. I don’t know about you but this screams biased.

no im not biased. I play on a team and we have a dedicated mercy player, but you know what the difference between her and you are? she isn’t trying to play mercy when she is not supposed to, and guess what? Just guess! Her winrates have stayed the same.

[Arceus-2238]

Statistically, she is ridiculously underpowered.

@Agnostika-1802

Mercy will be balanced claims: I’ve heard people say that people are still learning how to play post nerf Mercy, and that the numbers will get better once people figure out what maps/comps she’s good at. From the start, this claim is dubious. Mercy has been around since the game came out and, she’s not hard to figure out. Mercy should be good on maps with lots of verticality, and should be good in mobile comps that can exploit vericality, as well as comps centered on long range damage. I don’t think higher ranks players have any trouble at all figuring this out.

Looking at the data however, this claim doesn’t appear to be true. It’s been a month and the win rates show no indication of an upward trend. Mercy’s pick rates have already plummeted quite severely. People have already heavily restricted the situations they play Mercy in. They just haven’t found success. If this claim were true, you would have expected to see an upward trend when the pick rates decreased, especially in higher ranks where people make better strategic choices. It’s just not there. As a side note: the hero you are thinking of when you make this claim is Zenyatta. His pick rates have gone down, but his win rates have not.

In order to believe this claim, you need to believe an very unlikely constellation of ideas. This claim has grown a beard and needs a shave from Ockham’s razor. Its fig leaf of plausibility is shrinking by the day and it’s becoming indecent.

@Agnostika-1802

Mercy is balanced claims: I’ve heard people say that Mercy is fine, that Mercy is in a good place, that she’s more balanced than she’s ever been, etc. These claims are 100% false. Mercy’s win rates are below the tier average throughout the SR spectrum. The problem gets progressively worse the higher up you go. Being 3% away from the tier average is incredibly bad, given that the entire spread of win rate averages of commonly played characters is about 6%. Statistically, if you are playing Mercy right now then you are deranking, and if you’re playing her in high ranks then you’re throwing.

Another version of this attempts to shield itself from reality by making the non falsifiable claim that Mercy is fine because she still has mobility, consistency, damage boost, and res. You can tell that a claim about Mercy is on its face wrong if you can make it verbatim regardless of what number her healing is changed to. But even more importantly than that, this kind of theoretical analysis is not very useful. The final arbiter of what is good in Overwatch is what actually happens in the game, and the actual numbers point out clear as day that Mercy is not fine. Just as a reminder - after the Ana nerfs pros thought she would always be fine because she still had anti heals, sleep, and high burst healing.

[Justin-17714]

Also, what’s wrong with calling the [redacted because I don’t want to get another suspension] lazy? That’s not toxic at all lol.

it is absolutely toxic. the fact that you think it isn’t, shows your true toxic nature.

[anon47885920]

it is absolutely toxic. the fact that you think it isn’t, shows your true toxic nature.

Oh, guess I should apologize to my cats, I call them lazy all the time. ;^;

[Justin-17714]

like here, while trying to find the one of the videos you’ve made with toxic comment ive found another toxic comment at 2:28 you call the forum mods “easily triggered” and “power hungry”

[anon47885920]

like here, while trying to find the one of the videos you’ve made with toxic comment ive found another toxic comment at 2:28 you call the forum mods “easily triggered” and “power hungry”

Considering my and my friends’ suspensions, they absolutely paint themselves to be that way.

[bNy-1182]

If anything you should be happy that you don’t have to play mercy all the time as a healer now. That must have been rather boring… And it’s not like she’s useless, just look how much she’s been picked in pro play at winstonslab or go to overbuff or similar site to watch out her master/GM stats.

She’s not useless or a throw pick unless you play her the entire match every match. Pick her when you do such comp that she fits in or on points that is annoying as hell to get back to if you die (volskaya industries -.-).

[Justin-17714]

lmao so now the argument is “well they are” not “im not toxic” do you see what I mean? You are toxic. and you are trying to make excuses to cover it. Also as far as misinformation in that same video you talk about how people were suspended because of “power hunger” at 5:48 when they were suspended BECAUSE TALKING ABOUT ACCOUNT ACTION IS CLEARLY AGAINST COC. This what I mean by you spread misinformation. this is what I mean by you are toxic.

[Arceus-2238]

@Justin-17714

or an overly sensitive one? bringing your knowledge into debate is a fact check, not an insult.

Claiming that a person knows nothing about the topic they are arguing about is an insult. This is, again, just you trying to play it down.

@Justin-17714

Yes, but the fact that mercy was a must pick and needed to be change is not subjective. By blizzard standards nothing should be a must pick, mercy was. therefore she was overpowered.

If we’re talking about pre-rework, she wasn’t. Post-rework, yes but Ari rarely defends this rework. Never mind, she never defends this rework.

@Justin-17714

she absolutely wasn’t. her Must pick status in the meta for 8 seasons is proof of that.

12-14 months of not being meta proofs that she wasn’t a must pick for 8 seasons.

@Justin-17714

It doesn’t? her pickrates haven’t gone down at all, while her win rates have. this means she is still being picked in every situation by the people who were playing her before, and not being picked in the situations she is supposed to be used in now.

Her pickrate decreased more than her winrate. This further makes your assertion that people are still learning less likely. Also, this:

@Agnostika-1802

Mercy will be balanced claims: I’ve heard people say that people are still learning how to play post nerf Mercy, and that the numbers will get better once people figure out what maps/comps she’s good at. From the start, this claim is dubious. Mercy has been around since the game came out and, she’s not hard to figure out. Mercy should be good on maps with lots of verticality, and should be good in mobile comps that can exploit vericality, as well as comps centered on long range damage. I don’t think higher ranks players have any trouble at all figuring this out.

Looking at the data however, this claim doesn’t appear to be true. It’s been a month and the win rates show no indication of an upward trend. Mercy’s pick rates have already plummeted quite severely. People have already heavily restricted the situations they play Mercy in. They just haven’t found success. If this claim were true, you would have expected to see an upward trend when the pick rates decreased, especially in higher ranks where people make better strategic choices. It’s just not there. As a side note: the hero you are thinking of when you make this claim is Zenyatta. His pick rates have gone down, but his win rates have not.

In order to believe this claim, you need to believe an very unlikely constellation of ideas. This claim has grown a beard and needs a shave from Ockham’s razor. Its fig leaf of plausibility is shrinking by the day and it’s becoming indecent.

@Justin-17714

I didn’t say that. I said that mercy has no transferable skills. so it stands that you wouldn’t be able to transfer mercy knowledge and skill to anyone.

2 things. You’re indirectly insinuating that all Mercy players are one tricks and this doesn’t change a thing. Fact of the matter is people, definitely in high ranks, can play more than one hero.

@Justin-17714

no im not biased. I play on a team and we have a dedicated mercy player, but you know what the difference between her and you are? she isn’t trying to play mercy when she is not supposed to, and guess what? Just guess! Her winrates have stayed the same.

I literally stopped playing Mercy now. She’s boring and ridiculously underpowered. Also, insinuating that all Mercy mains are one-tricks sounds pretty biased to me. Don’t bother trying to change my mind.

[AG3-11710]

Mercy threads are now filled with Aria Rose, the most irrational person I think I have ever seen. She makes me hate Mercy a lot more, making me refuse to play her.

[Arceus-2238]

She’s underpowered according to Overbuff. Someone explains it better.

@Agnostika-1802

Note: In diamond - gm, Mercy was the lowest win rate healer throughout the whole month. Usually, the distance to the next healer in masters-gm was about 3%. Mercy also spent the whole month in these tiers in the bottom 4 win rate characters period, almost always in the bottom 3, and usually bottom period in at least one of them.

Now, I’d like to address the claims I’ve been hearing based on this data. Broadly speaking, I separate them into 4 categories: Mercy is balanced, Mercy will be balanced, balance is meaningless, and Mercy should not be balanced.

Mercy is balanced claims: I’ve heard people say that Mercy is fine, that Mercy is in a good place, that she’s more balanced than she’s ever been, etc. These claims are 100% false. Mercy’s win rates are below the tier average throughout the SR spectrum. The problem gets progressively worse the higher up you go. Being 3% away from the tier average is incredibly bad, given that the entire spread of win rate averages of commonly played characters is about 6%. Statistically, if you are playing Mercy right now then you are deranking, and if you’re playing her in high ranks then you’re throwing.

Another version of this attempts to shield itself from reality by making the non falsifiable claim that Mercy is fine because she still has mobility, consistency, damage boost, and res. You can tell that a claim about Mercy is on its face wrong if you can make it verbatim regardless of what number her healing is changed to. But even more importantly than that, this kind of theoretical analysis is not very useful. The final arbiter of what is good in Overwatch is what actually happens in the game, and the actual numbers point out clear as day that Mercy is not fine. Just as a reminder - after the Ana nerfs pros thought she would always be fine because she still had anti heals, sleep, and high burst healing.

Mercy will be balanced claims: I’ve heard people say that people are still learning how to play post nerf Mercy, and that the numbers will get better once people figure out what maps/comps she’s good at. From the start, this claim is dubious. Mercy has been around since the game came out and, she’s not hard to figure out. Mercy should be good on maps with lots of verticality, and should be good in mobile comps that can exploit vericality, as well as comps centered on long range damage. I don’t think higher ranks players have any trouble at all figuring this out.

Looking at the data however, this claim doesn’t appear to be true. It’s been a month and the win rates show no indication of an upward trend. Mercy’s pick rates have already plummeted quite severely. People have already heavily restricted the situations they play Mercy in. They just haven’t found success. If this claim were true, you would have expected to see an upward trend when the pick rates decreased, especially in higher ranks where people make better strategic choices. It’s just not there. As a side note: the hero you are thinking of when you make this claim is Zenyatta. His pick rates have gone down, but his win rates have not.

In order to believe this claim, you need to believe an very unlikely constellation of ideas. This claim has grown a beard and needs a shave from Ockham’s razor. Its fig leaf of plausibility is shrinking by the day and it’s becoming indecent.

Balance is meaningless: These are claims of the form - win rates don’t matter/don’t mean much. Bulls have to eat quite a lot of food. They can’t digest it all, and so that food comes to an unpleasant and inevitable conclusion. A similar situation holds here. Win rate is the number one statistic that matters. The only variable that determines whether or not a character is good is whether or not they’re winning games. Pick rate is only secondary evidence towards this.

Now, that isn’t to say that one can just look at win rates in a vacuum. Some thought has to be applied to them. For instance, situations where a character is on both sides have to be taken into account. These situations will always cause a character’s win rates to trend closer to the tier average (For example, when a character is picked on both sides in every game then their win rates are the exact tier average). When a character is below the average win rate (as Mercy is), that means that non mirror matches are actually significantly worse than the win rate indicates.

Just because you have to think about something in order to speak about it in an informed way doesn’t make it meaningless. I suspect that many of you making this claim would not make it about other characters.

Mercy shouldn’t be balanced: These are claims of the form - Mercy is mechanically easier than Ana, so she shouldn’t do as well in higher tiers. Leaving off the fact that non of the other characters are balanced in this way, it’s a non sequitur. Mercy players don’t want to be better than Ana at higher ranks. They want to be viable there. When you are making this claim, you are really thinking about someone else. Moira is better than Ana at lower ranks, and worse than her in higher ranks. She’s viable at every rank. She’s also very easy to play (easier than Mercy in my opinion). Moira is the model Mercy players are looking for.

In any case, these are claims that can’t really addressed by numbers. They can only be addressed by love. If you’re making this silly claim, I love you anyways.

Data and claims aside, I have 3 requests to make:
Pro Mercy crowd: I’ve seen a lot of you retreat to the claim “Mercy is balanced now but boring”. When you do this, the other side just says that fun is subjective and dismisses you. Don’t be so hasty to retreat from reality. Mercy is not balanced. That needs to be fixed.

Anti Mercy crowd: Some of you are making honest well reasoned arguments. You have a natural and worthy position to take here - Blizzard should be cautious with regards to Mercy to prevent her from dominating the support roster. You guys should stick to points like this where you are in the right.

Blizzard: In trying to balance pick rates, you over nerfed Mercy. You know this. My guess is that you knew it all along. You will need to fix it eventually. The healing will need to go back to 60. Start figuring out how to do this without breaking the game. Valkyrie and res are both controversial messes. Do something to them, and make it happen. Also, despite my criticisms I love you guys too.

[anon47885920]

lmao so now the argument is “well they are” not “im not toxic” do you see what I mean? You are toxic. and you are trying to make excuses to cover it.

Depends on what you define as toxic. Toxic is a buzzword now, something to fall on when you have no other argument. I call things out so if you think that’s toxic, whatever.

[SleepyReapy-1479]

Then just dont click them? If you know youre going to get annoyed its better for your health to ignore them lol.

[Arceus-2238]

Not surprisingly, “you’re wrong because you’re toxic” is also ad hominem.

[AG3-11710]

I have also just been really mad today.

[Justin-17714]

Depends on what you define as toxic. Toxic is a buzzword now, something to fall on when you have no other argument. I call things out so if you think that’s toxic, whatever.

You know what doesn’t depend on how you define? spreading misinformation. like in that same video you saying people were suspended because “power hunger” when they were suspended for talking about account action, something clearly against the CoC