Mercy doesn't heal too much (with stats!)

General Discussion
98

Titanium: I disagree with you that Valkyrie is a garbage ultimate. I think it’s pretty good and well in keeping with her character.

Kazper: Yes, that’s the number that I think is far fetched. I think that the chain beams in an average valkyrie heal for far less than the potential number you posted. Yes, there are 3-5 valkyries a game, so it’s contribution should be on average 4*average Valk healing. But I think that potential number you posted almost never happens, and the average Valk is much lower. It certainly is in my experience.

Now I could be wrong, but I don’t think I am. Like I said, if you have good data here I’d be happy to see it. My reasons for thinking this are that the post rework healing numbers did not jump up anywhere on the order of 33%, and that the Valkyrie duration nerf didn’t affect her healing numbers at all. Cutting 25% duration off of something you claim is such a large part of her healing should have shown up. All in all, I think you are not correct in thinking that it’s easy to see that Valk’s chain beams are responsible for large parts of Mercy’s healing.

PharHentoi: The damage boost was there pre-rework, so I’m assuming you mean res. Her healing hasn’t changed drastically since the rework, and she’s currently resurrecting about the same number of people per game (a bit lower now), so I’m assuming you are referring to how tempo res differs from mass res as utility. Now this is a fair point, since it seems to have disrupted the game quite a bit. That’s why it’s the Mercy component that should be addressed. It was never the healing, which has remained constant.

My arguments are not baseless, and the data is not skewed in any way. It’s based off of a simple question - how much hp swing does a character have in a game? It’s not a specious question. It actually points to how much the character is contributing in reality. You can make all the models you want (the healing/mobility/utility model), and make claims about them (like that she has the best utility), but the numbers don’t lie.

Mercy’s utility has the advantage of being easily quantified. Damage boosted. Life brought back through resurrection. When those numbers are added together with her healing, it’s straight in the middle of the pack. And that’s not factoring things I couldn’t get numbers for that other characters have. The mobility and consistency are already factored in. Mobile consistent heroes heal for more. That’s the whole point of the mobility and the consistency.

The healing numbers don’t point to a nerf. The win rates don’t point to a nerf (and didn’t even when she wasn’t played as much). There is only one number that does point to a nerf - pick rate. Now pick rate might justify a nerf, but no one knows for sure what inflated it. If you want to nerf, it’s important to pick the right one so that we won’t be here again in a few months.

The problem is probably res. It’s what made her pick rates soar to begin with. Res needs to be taken off of a 30 second cooldown. I don’t think this requires a revert. I offered a solution in my OP, and people have offered others that don’t involve reverts.

Finally - it’s not a small nerf. It’s a flat 17% nerf to her primary function. That’s as big as nerfs get.

99

Not to be rude here, but what does your experience really mean? Going off of your profile it looks like you only play quick play, and going by your overbuff you’re not in a high mmr match rating in quick play either. Team coordination is little to non existent and you’re more or less healing 4-5 dps a game without tanks. An average mercy would heal more in a standard 2-2-2 comp in competitive. Your personal experience is far from a reflection of the average player, let along the top 10% who utilize valk to it’s fullest. In games you’re playing there’s probably little chance of people grouping up for you to chain more than one person at a time.

I’ve broken down the basic logic for you step by step, you refuse to acknowledge it due to personal experience.

Even titanium can’t confirm this to be false considering they didn’t know how to measure healing per elo. Relying so heavily on their data that’s already been proven to be skewed is nothing short of disingenuous.

Valk can heal up to 5 people at once. 5 people times 60hps for 15 seconds is 4500 healing in one Valk. If you use Valk to heal only 2 people at once, times 60hps for 15 seconds, that’s 1800 healing in one valk. This is an extra 900 healing to mercy’s average than she would normally have. When Someone is full so you bounce around and continue healing for the full duration on somebody else, lets call it 700 more healing on average than she usually does. 700 healing jumps up too 2800 healing with 4 valks in a game, and this is only focusing on healing two people, the bare minimum of valk only healing 2 people at a time.

Again, the logic is laid out for you, Mercy players who know the value of Valk take full advantage of it and they get anywhere from 13-15k a game, even reaching stupidly high healing like 18k per game sometimes. The majority of mercy players think Valk is useless and pop it to survive a flanker and/or fly back to their team at spawn because they all died, healing nobody for that full duration.

Actually i’ve never once made this claim. What I did say was Mercy’s healing used to be close to Ana’s in high elo’s, and now Mercy heals an insane amount more on average comparatively since her rework. Given high elo is 10% of the population you wouldn’t see huge deviations from the average across all elo’s.

100

Basically you just explained whats wrong with her…

Look…i dont think there is a reason to switch te mercy, when the enemy team has one…what will happen if you dont? you loose? and? ana is worse than her yes, but if you are for example plat ana, you will outperform bronze/silver mercys…so not playing mercy maybe puts you one league lower, but mercys wont outperform you, since you would belong to plat, and a gold mercy is only gold…he definetly dosent belong to plat.

It is just silly to play a hero that is currently opaf, and boring, especially when you dont want to.

For example i am in gold with ana, because i already can outheal gold mercys most of the time…so i am not putting my team in disadvantage at all. At least i dont think so, but yesterday a duo asked me to switch from ana to mercy, because it is somehow instaloss playing with her in gold, even if i have 57% winrate with her this season solo q. My profile is public, they could have checked it…yet they blamed me before the match even started!!! Thas why mercy is a cancer to this game in her current state.

And you basically said, well i dont want to play seriously sometimes, i dont want to try hard…thank god blizzard made mercy, and i can be effective with her even without taking the game seriously…how f…d up having a hero like that in the game?

101

That’s the point; why bother shooting at the Mercy when her team is far easier to kill? 60 health/second (soon to be 50 health/second) isn’t going to sustain a team through focus fire, let alone ultimates.

That’s why her healing averages have remained roughly the same, and for a while, lower than pre-rework; before, she had an ultimate that allowed members of her team to come back into the fight, providing her more opportunities for healing. If used to revive 4+ players, it practically doubled the amount of healing she dealt in that engagement, as the teams effectively fought two fights.

Valkyrie’s healing is spread out and impotent. A decent Mercy would perform about the same in keeping the team alive with or without Valkyrie. The only real bonus Valkyrie provides in regards to healing is mitigation of stray fire, and that isn’t a huge deal in the first place. Focus fire cuts through that rate of healing like butter (especially in high tiers), and the team gets wiped regardless. This time, there isn’t a Resurrect to teammates back from that and bump up Mercy’s healing numbers.

2 Likes
102

Thats the way it’s supposed to be. Healing is supposed to help you win a fight, not stop a fight from being winnable.

You realize for this theory of yours to be true, that would mean mercy heals a crazy amount now compared to what she used to.

If Mercy’s average healing was 11-12k pre-rework because she brought people back with mass rez and continued to heal them through extended team fights, that would mean Mercy’s current amount of healing rivals that without the need for extended team fights and mass res, while also averaging 13k in gm and has more ress’ than before with it on e.

And you’re still somehow arguing she doesn’t heal more now.

This is simply not true.

Again, healing is supposed to help win a fight, not stop fights from being winnable. That’s the way it should be. Also this statement is blatantly false. 60hps times 5 team mates over 15 seconds is 4500 healing mercy can potentially do with one valk. That’s 3600 more than she would do without valk. These are of course optimal conditions but the point stands.

And yet she still pulls in comparable healing numbers, and better averages in higher elo’s now without it.

103

But we are at the point where the healing is so pathetic that it is more effective to shoot the other players rather than the source of the ultimate. Do you not see the problem with this?

Let’s add some perspective. What if Soldier:76’s ultimate were so weak that it is more worth shooting at his teammates rather than him?

Sure, it’s supposed to help the team win a fight… but does it really do that? A Graviton Surge into a team using Valkyrie would end exactly the same as a Graviton Surge into a team that never used Valkyrie.

It’s the same amount of healing. The source just changed. It would mean Valkyrie at best doubles the healing output of Mercy for a fight, indicated by the numbers.

Which means that Valkyrie only compensated for the drop in healing that would have occurred from Mass-rez.

Only 13k? Pfft. That’s nothing. 14k with Mercy 1.x was a breeze in GM.

I might note that every hero’s stats have always been higher in GM; that’s why those players are in GM. If they couldn’t crank out better stats, they probably aren’t performing well, and thus would fall out of GM.

Want an example? Look at every hero’s winrate in Bronze. Now look at every hero’s winrate in GM. Big difference.

Actually, that is incorrect. The average number of Resurrects now resembles the average number of Resurrects from Mercy’s pre-rework versions, although the statistics don’t tell the full story with Resurrect. Its numerical value doesn’t accurately reflect its realistic value.

Because she doesn’t. Look at the averages. The source of said healing may differ, but her healing has not changed.

See the next part you quoted:

Trash damage can wait. That one ally that is getting focused is the only target that actually needs that healing, and Valkyrie kind of… doesn’t help that at all.

See what I said above.

Which has always been the case.

104

I’d argue the opposite. Healing is so efficant that sustained dps cant reliably burst through it and if they do, it’s just getting ressed up leading to nothing but a choke fight. So now what we’re seeing is one shot mechanics to burst through the healing and being able to take out multiple targets quickly before they get ressed.

Is healing alone a problem? No, of course not. Healing can be burst through, there’s no question about it. With that being said, healing and barriers and armor have all put us in this stale one shot mechanic meta.

Who said Valk was supposed to be the counter to graviton surge? Oh no, valk doesn’t heal as much as zen’s ult so it’s automatically bad? That’s not how any of this works. If you use valk offensively you got 5 people on your team all doing 15% more damage. If you use valk defensively, you got 5 people regening 60… well now 50hps.

Now we’re finally getting somewhere. Yes I completely agree with you. And that’s the average Mercy player across all elo’s. Now is it really so far fetched that people who utilize this new ability are healing for insane amounts that shouldn’t be possible in a game. 15k, 16k, sometimes 18k. Yes this was always possible with long games. It’s not just happening in long games anymore though.

average, across all elo’s.

Her average. You can cut the smart act. Mercy’s average in gm pre rework never passed 12k. Yes you cna heal more than 13k in a game, congrats, with Mercy you can easily heal 15k a game. That doesn’t mean your average is going to be 13k

Don’t even. Every pro player and streamer has come out saying she ress’ more now. The average across all elo’s is 6 people, which you’re inevitably going to argue. A good majority are pulling 7-9. Mercy’s used to build mass res once or twice a game and was lucky to get off 3-4 man res’. Even when a good portion of players were abusing mercy’s sr gain with mass rez.

Average across elo’s. I keep saying this and at this point i’m starting to think you’re just willfully ignoring it.

Why should it? It’s not supposed to, it’s not a burst heal. Valk not being able to do one thing doesn’t take away from the thing it actually does.

Simply not true, you’re still taking facts from average across all elo’s and applying it to elo’s who specifically play to optimize themselves. You’re not going to see a diamond mercy pop valk for the sole purpose of flying back to spawn to regroup with the team.

105

Kazper: I’m not basing my conclusions off of my own experience, I’m basing them off the numbers. I am however using my own experience as a baseline to judge whether or not what you say sounds plausible. Then I check the numbers.

Regarding your argument - you seem to think that it’s self evident and that I’m being obtuse. I don’t think this is so. I’m reading your arguments and thinking about them, but I just don’t find them as convincing as you think they are.

You did make the claim that Mercy’s chain Valk beams are responsible for a good chunk of her healing:

In context, you claimed that this is what allowed her to go from being just above Ana to where she is now. You seem to be basing this off of potential healing numbers together with the claim that these numbers should be realistic in high play. I don’t find this argument convincing, despite how self evident you believe it to be.

Here are several reasons why: you originally pointed to a 2.7k/valk number as a reasonable number. Let’s take a lower number for the average, say 2. The average Mercy in GM heals on the order of 13K and gets 4 valks a game. That means that Valk should account for 8k healing a game. That leaves barely enough to even charge the Valks, and would imply that old Mercy was healing 5k a game. Clearly the actual number is MUCH lower. The 700 you put in your current post sounds closer to reality to me, but again - one has to see if the data bears this out. And it seems like it doesn’t.

As Titanium pointed out, Mercy’s healing numbers didn’t change much post rework. You are hedging your statement now by claiming it’s only in high elos, but Mercy’s healing numbers don’t change drastically from platinum through GM (they range from 12k - 13k, and dip to 11 in gold). The numbers in GM also didn’t dip when Valk’s duration was shortened. This seems to indicate that Valk isn’t responsible for as much healing as you claim it is.

I think Valk is an excellent ult that does a decent amount of healing, but I think you’re overselling its impact.
This is irrelevant to the discussion, but I’d like to clear something up. I am indeed a QP player. I play exclusively with friends who are also tryhard QP players. We usually end up being paired against other 6 stacks of tryhards. We tend to get placed against people whose MMR is in the mid plat - mid diamond range and do fine. We coordinate, we choose good comps, we execute strategies. We communicate through voice chat and take advantage of ultimates. We don’t have 4-5 dps in a game. We do have tanks. My friends who also play comp (again, in the plat-diamond range) say that it’s a very comparable experience. I usually end up healing between 13-15k/10 minutes, and it’s very rare that I am outhealed by the healer on the other side. I have a 60% win rate with her over the course of hundreds of hours. While I don’t claim to be the best Mercy in the world, I do think I’m a pretty decent one and know how she’s played, and I certainly know how to use Valkyrie.

106

Mercy had 50HPS before. They had buffed it to 60HPS then.

If they can revert this then why not revert the terrible changes and give Mercy something better?

They also reverted Mei’s damage falloff and McCree’s IIRC.

107

No actually i based that part on real numbers. I used potential numbers to prove a point about how much extra healing valk brings to mercy, which you’re now being willfully ignorant too.

Now this is misrepresenting the argument to create a strawman. I did not say Valk makes up a good portion of mercy’s healing, though talking with Titanium that might actually be true after all. What I did say originally however was that valk has pushed mercy’s average up in GM, where Ana has consistently stayed around 9k and Mercy has now eclipsed her average.

Edit: I’m not saying Ana used to heal more than Mercy or anything, before you assume that. Mercy has pretty much always had a better healing average than ana post nade nerf. What I am saying is the gap has widened particularly in higher elo’s post mercy rework.

108

If burst damage is what teams are looking for, then we would be seeing a lot more of Junkrat. Yet… McCree is ahead of him, and his damage is far more consistent.

We’re in the middle of a sustain/CC meta right now, not a burst/one-shot meta.

Graviton Surge was an example. Replace that with Rocket Barrage, Tactical Visor, Earthshatter, Self-Destruct, Blizzard, Rip-Tire, Deadeye, Dragonstrike, Death Blossom, whatever, and you get the same result.

Support ultimates (with the exception of Nano-boost) are designed to help the team power through enemy fire and/or ultimates; Valkyrie falls flat in that category.

Valkyrie doesn’t compare to or contest other ultimates, so it is bad.

*30%. Which is flatly outclassed by Supercharger’s 50% more damage to six players rather than five.

Only one of whom really needs it… Unless the entire team needs it, but in that case, 60 health/second doesn’t help against the 150+ damage/second incoming.

If that is happening, it sure as hell isn’t happening often… about the same rate as always, glancing at those GM healing stats.

And probably across every individual rank too.

That is false. I never recorded the exact data point, but I remember Mercy’s average healing in GM hanging around 13k on the few occasions that I checked.

Even if we were to disregard that, a simple sanity test would toss that out the window; Mercy’s healing in all tiers hung around 11.9K before the rework, and GM tends to do a great job of blowing those numbers out the window.

Go check out the average healing and damage of every healer in all tiers. Now compare that to GM only. You’ll notice that GM has higher stats in those categories. The only exception to this is Lucio’s healing, which can be explained away by the fact that he is probably using his speed aura more often in GM, and Mercy’s damage, which is lower by only 42 points, or two pistol shots.

For example, look at Moira’s healing output. It goes from 10564 to 12372; a larger jump than Mercy’s healing.

Rezzes more often, yes. Revives more players? No. And yes, I am going to “even”, as the numbers are there.

Prior to the rework, 6-6.5 Resurrects/game was average. For a more exact number of the average immediately prior to the rework I referenced an old graph in another thread and did the math to get an exact measurement: 6.38/game. Currently, Mercy gets 6.22/game.

I just "even"ed.

I’m going to ask you a question that will tell me exactly how much you really know on the subject.

How often do players use Valkyrie?

Keep reading…

You literally just affirmed that Valkyrie’s healing is useless.

Go compare GM stats of all heroes to non-GM stats of those same heroes. Then come back. You will find that those three words are, quite simply, false.

I am not. Ironically, the parts in which I address GM stats are the only parts of the post you did not respond to.

You’re going to see a Diamond Mercy pop Valkyrie and watch the fight proceed as usual, which may mean flying back to spawn to regroup with the team after being wiped.

Now that you mention it, I have a few friends who have used Valkyrie as a tool to get back to the fight after respawning. It’s much faster.

1 Like
109

Kazper: Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument. I’ll write them down as I understand them, and you can point out what you think is wrong.

Argument: Mercy used to heal just slightly more than Ana in GM (which is about 9k). Then Valkyrie was added. Now Mercy heals for 13K in GM. I deduced from this that you are claiming that Valk accounted for the extra healing (which ends up being about 3-4k using your numbers). You corroborated this in the quote I linked. My addition to this argument is the claim that 3-4k amounts to about 25% of 13k (which would be a 33% increase), and the claim that this sounds like too much

Meta argument: The potential numbers for Valkyrie are high, so it’s very reasonable that I should believe your previous argument. My contribution here is to doubt that your potential numbers (prior to the 700 number you wrote) sounded like reasonable approximations of what actually happens in game.

But on to a more important point - your claim is that Mercy’s healing post rework has gone up viz a viz Ana in high elos. I’m not necessarily disputing that claim, but Titanium is so I’d be interested in seeing the data here. I find it a bit suspicious to have the high elo qualification since Mercy’s healing doesn’t vary much from rank to rank.

However even conceding this, my original claim stands - when you look at the total contribution, it doesn’t seem like healing is the problem. It seems like res is. So why not nerf that?

110

Except his damage isn’t reliable. It’s spam. There was a whole meta dedicated to it, which is why it got nerfed. Widow and Hanzo are much more reliable. And in high elo’s doomfist is gettin a fair amount of play with his high skill high reward value.

Where’s the cc though? Brig is barley played, when she is it’s to discourage enemy tracer or winston who’s completely fallin off.

Valk isn’t supposed to counter any of these. It’s consistent healing/damage to all your allies in range during the course of a normal team fight. Not to be wasted when the enemy’s going to team wipe you

No, off healer ultimates are. Main healer ultimates are a mix of both, and therefor don’t completely counter other ultimates. Ana can use nano offensively and defensively. Moira’s ult damages and heals. Mercy can damage boost and heal.

This is simply not true. It’s not a team saving defensive ult, and it’s not supposed to be. Genji’s ultimate isn’t bad when compared to Junkrat’s even though junkrat’s ult can burst through trance

yeah 30%, my bad. And come on now. Supercharger is stationary, destroyable, and doesn’t have the option to heal.

We both know this isn’t true. Team fights can be chaotic and people don’t always coordinate to focus one person, even more so in solo queue ladder. Even at the height of dive when everyone played dive meta hero’s it was only utilised in master+.

You’re saying mercy’s average in gm was 13k going as far back as triple tank when ana was doing 12k and mercy couldn’t compete? Come on now.

You have fully admitted you don’t have the stats for this. In fact you didn’t even know how to look up the stats for this until earlier today when I told you, so there is no conceivable way you could know if this is true or not.

You have fully admitted you don’t have the stats for this. In fact you didn’t even know how to look up the stats for this until earlier today when I told you, so there is no conceivable way you could know if this is true or not.

That is really suspect of you to start blatantly lying.

Like, you actually said this

111

The actual change Mercy needs is making Resurrect something you earn, it’s the strongest support ability in this game.

112

Okay no, you pretty much got the just of my argument then. I’ll be completely honest I didn’t realize that was actually a 25% increase. That’s kind of mind blowing in itself.

I fully agree, mercy’s healing isn’t… the only problem. And on it’s own, it definitely isn’t. I personally agree Res on E is just too powerful, mercy ended up with the best healing average and the best utility in this rework, which was never intended to be her niche. With that being said, If blizzard is content on keeping Res on E and Valk as her ultimate, other parts of her kit need to be nerfed to balance those. I don’t agree it was the right decision, but I don’t think it’s the wrong decision playing devils advocate either.

I’m starting to become really skeptical of where Titanium pulled their original numbers from when they posted them on the old forums. 11k pre-rework on average across all elo’s seems high, and i’m starting to think that was really the GM numbers that titanium didn’t know how to look at but is now lying about knowing how to find that info. Very confusing to say the least.

113

Right. And according to you, the meta should be favoring one-shots/burst; Junkrat packs more burst than any other hero in the game.

Charge. Earthshatter. Graviton Surge. The occasional Brigitte.

Considering that a team will have two ultimates on average (killing a team grants 2000+ charge, plus healing, plus passive gain). Using Valkyrie when the enemy team doesn’t have any ultimates isn’t really an option. Then again, the ultimates aren’t the only thing the Mercy should be worried about; there’s that focus fire again.

And Valkyrie is outclassed in both categories.

Then what is it supposed to be?

Genji’s ultimate can still singlehandedly wipe a team.

And still better than all of Mercy’s damage amplification.
Orisa’s damage amplified/game: 1110.
Mercy’s damage amplified/game: 800.

Get real. Supercharger isn’t hard to protect, especially not when the enemy is trying not to get shot by supercharged projectiles. Orisa is the perfect size to body-block it and has a shield that covers it nicely. Supercharger also doesn’t require a hero to be channeling it to work, so you have a team of 6 plus a dispenser rather than a team of 5 plus a dispenser.

Way to miss half the quote.

I thought GM is the tier you wanted me to so badly look at?

Where did I say that?

I have no idea what any of Mercy’s averages were back in season 3. I never started tracking them until season 4, and I never started recording them until season 5.

Actually, I knew that feature was there, I just had not thought of that feature when you first mentioned tier-specific stats.

Or maybe you just make assumptions based upon what you really don’t know?

You know what? Let’s play devils advocate. Where are your pre-rework tier-specific stats?

“Actually, I knew that feature was there, I just had not thought of that feature when you first mentioned tier-specific stats.”

Answer this question, please:

114

No. Unless you really don’t know how burst damage works. Spam damage =/= reliable burst damage.

So basically rein is played therefor cc meta. That’s not how it works. CC was pretty true in triple support for how long that lasted before the hanzo rework.

This is just not how the game works. Lets be completely real here. Mass res was removed because the game doesn’t work this way and a popular streamer cried about it, getting his fans to do the same.

Sure. At this point you’re clearly speaking from a bias considering how much you want mass rez back.

An offensive or defensive ultimate that aids the team, considering it can be used for both.

Not the point.

You realize that number for mercy also includes damage boosting normally right? Which means the average mercy doesn’t realize they have a right click, to nobodies surprise.

Orisa’s ult is arguably one of the worst ults in the game, even orisa main’s hate it. I’m not even sure how you’re trying to argue this. Mercy’s can either heal or damage boost. And 30% damage on the right team can be devastating. Also, it’s mobile. Compared to… Orisa’s ult.

The other half of the quote didn’t take from or add to your point. McCree is both more popular than junkrat and in the right hands incredibly more consistent than spam damage that can hardly be aimed, now so more than ever since his nerf.

You have the overall averages and are dead set on mercy’s average in gm has changed very little. If this is your claim then that statement must be true, considering season 4 mercy’s healing average was the exact same as in season 3, and 5 for that matter, up until her rework.

I mean, really? The person every mercy main is so caught up on because of their detailed stats from season 4 as you claim, just forgot how to check GM stats on overbuff. Really?

I find this highly ironic now just for the record.

115

No one said anything about reliability, although Junkrat did get a lot more of that through his rework.

But that’s the point of burst damage heroes; they trade reliability for burst. And, as you said, the meta should be favoring burst, correct? Going by that, Junkrat should be dominating right now.

Reading is hard.

If a team walks into a teamfight without any ultimates, unless it is the first engagement of the game, that team is pretty flipping terrible at ultimate management.

Mass-rez was removed because a streamer cried about it after blowing all his ults in the first fight, rather than thinking about strategy. They definitely walked into that fight with ultimates, but they didn’t expect the enemy to have a decent counter to them.

Is that assertion I made about Valkyrie incorrect?

Tell me, what thing does Valkyrie do better than any other ultimate? What part of Valkyrie is at all unique?

Healing? Discount Transcendence.
Damage boost? Discount Supercharger.
Flight? Not really useful in a teamfight when you’re just acting as a dispenser for the team, and we already have a hero that can fly consistently without an ultimate.
Pistol? Better off just switching to Pharah if you want to play like that.

It’s not really an ultimate, to be honest…

Oh, but it is. Genji’s ultimate has the potential to wipe a team. It has impact. The same cannot be said about Valkyrie. Valkyrie just removes a few weaknesses.

Hence the italicized “all”. You’re actually helping to prove my point on just how much Supercharger outclasses Valkyrie.

Orisa’s Supercharger outclasses all of Mercy’s damage boost. An ultimate outclasses another ultimate and then some.

That sounds awfully familiar… stares at Valkyrie

Go look back at the numbers I posted. It’s all there.

Both of which are flatly outclassed by other ults… we’ve been over this…

And 30% damage increase in this case also means no main healer, which means said “devastating” team probably isn’t going to last long anyway. Supercharger on the other hand…

That is totally irrelevant to the quote. :rofl:

Except Mercy was pretty bad in season 3, and didn’t really become viable until season 4.

A specific set of stats that I have never actually sourced for one of my posts. Stumbling upon it was mostly on accident in the first place, and it didn’t provide a lot of the stats that I wanted; damage amplified, for example.

You’re still not addressing a lot of my arguments. For example:

1 Like
116

I’m not sure you could call adding a 2nd mine a rework. That’s just a straight up buff.

Not at all. Burst damage is heavy amounts of raw damage. Widow headshotting somebody is burst, and much more reliable than junkrat spamming an open area like junkertown for example. You are actually just arguing to argue at this point.

No, just two of your hero’s don’t necessarily apply in my opinion. A cc meta would consist of mass amounts of cc. Given Grav is an ultimate, and the longest one to charge at that, I would personally say that doesn’t attribute to a CC meta. Brigitte is rarely ever played now and actually has a worse pick rate then Ana, so I’m not sure how you attribute her to this meta. The meta currently is 2 snipers. 1 shot mechanics are everything.

That’s not a counter, that’s just straight up erasing the play, but i get the point. and the counter argument is clearly, that’s just not how the game works, even in High elo’s. Not everyone gets ult up at the same time. Not every team fight consists of an ult combo, or even an ult of you’re trying to save on ult economy.

All of this means absolutely nothing though considering Mercy’s Valk still contributes to her team. It’s not as flashy as mass rez, I get that, and honestly I don’t sympathize out of spite at this point because Now that res is on E and Valk does so much more than Mercy could ever do before.

Honestly at this point, I’m going to call it subjective and agree to disagree. Clearly there are people who think Valk is legitimately great, and clearly you’re not one of them. You can compare it to all the things that are better in different situations, that still doesn’t take away from how good it is when utilized right.

Yeah you’re not bias at all.

Clearly not bias. Valkyrie is absolutely useless and doesn’t help mercy’s kit at all ever, not once.

Actually that only proves my point that the majority of mercy mains don’t fully know how to utilize what they have to it’s fullest. Considering Mercy should be able to eclipse that number if they wanted too.

Okay I laughed at this one.

And we both know Mercy could eclipse that. All you’ve proven is the average mercy doesn’t damage boost, which is kind of a meme at this point.

And you’re willfully ignoring it’s application by comparing it to things it shouldn’t be compared too. Yes, Zen’s ult will heal more than Mercy’s. Mercy’s ult will still give her team a good 1-3k healing in a good team fight.

My bad, it’s getting late here and these long back and forths are kind of a pain to navigate. Responding to that initial point. 60 health per second goes a long way, Mercy is known for her consistent single target healing that keeps people alive… Now it’s only 50 hps, but with Valk it still can attach to up to 5 people. It’s basically Mercy pocketing everyone in range. We already know how strong pocketing is.

Mercy wasn’t Meta in season 3, that doesn’t mean she was bad. The same way Ana isn’t bad because Mercy has been Meta for the last year. Even in season 3 Mercy’s pickrate was more than decent.

http://www.omnicmeta.com/2017/02/pc-competitive-ladder-season-3-report.html?m=1

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this mostly because I don’t actually care at this point. It seems suspect but it’s what ever. Neither of us can find sources of those stats anymore since stat sights don’t track that far back so it’s not worth the argument. With that being said, there was a reason Ana was Meta over Mercy with 12k average healing in triple tank.

If you really want me to respond to this. Diamond and above used to be the top 25% of the player base. Apparently that’s top 10% now. Less above average players means less statistics to pull from with those kind of stats when contributing to the total average across all elo’s.

It’s a given GM will be higher than the average player, which is why we poll from those statistics as it’s that hero being played to their optimal potential. I personally favor ladder statics over pro considering that kind of team coordination is something you will never find in ladder, and completely changes the way the game is played.

From the short times i’ve actually played mercy, i’ve been able to charge valk roughly 3-5 times. I’m pretty sure no stat sights actually track that unfortunately.

Edit: I’d also assume like any ult it depends on how long the game goes.

117

Thanks! I’m glad we were not as far from agreeing as I thought, and I’m sorry that we got sidetracked into a discussion that was probably beside the point. Let’s see if we can take this one step further.

  1. I agree that among the main healers Ana should have utility locked up, together with burst single target healing and some good damage. I agree that res in encroaching on that territory and could use some looking at (something to decrease it from 6 a game. My personal preference is to have a res charge be something you get from valk as opposed to a 30 second cooldown). Moira should have damage and anti flanking locked down (I think Brigitte really encroaches on her territory there).

  2. On the other side of this, I think that Mercy should have the best overall healing, except in a tank heavy comp.

  3. The question then becomes, how much more should Mercy heal than the other main healers. The devs should think about this, and my suspicion is that they didn’t. This is especially important when proposing a large nerf to one of them, because it’s not clear at all what this kind of thing will do outside of temporarily decreasing pick rates.

  4. I proposed the following model - the main healer should be balanced so that their contribution to a match is roughly equal. Not everything in Overwatch is quantifiable, but a lot of things are. So I quantified what I could. Damage + healing is a fair indicator of what Moira does. Damage + healing undersells Zenyatta (because of discord). Damage + damage boosted + healing + hit points resurrected represents Mercy well enough in my mind. The model shows Mercy in the middle of the pack. Ana and Lucio are below her, but a lot of the great stuff they bring to the table (like speed, or anti heal) didn’t go into the numbers at all. Plus, they’re both getting buffed (I’d have preferred a bit more of a buff for Ana. More damage, and faster reload. Or a form of self heal).

Is the model perfect? No, no model is. It’s possible to argue that healing and damage are not equal, or that burst healing/damage is not equal to sustained healing/damage. The first argument favors Mercy and the second favors the other main healers. It is a decent model though. It predicts win rates for every healer aside from Moira (and even predicted it for Moira before the Hanzo/brig meta).

And what you can see from the model is that a 17% nerf to healing puts Mercy a lot below the others. A tweak to res on the other hand (which I think is the problem, since her pick rates skyrocketed past the change) to make it less commonly available is something that leaves a lot more room for finesse and actually addresses the problem.

That’s why I’m up in arms against it. It feels like something done without careful thought about what Mercy should actually be doing, that hurts the play experience of the character without addressing the actual problem.

Having said all that, are our positions closer than it initially seemed?