It’s there for players to have fun, have access to fun, be included and diversed in fun. But it’s also there to also drive retention/engagement and then eventually, churn. I get the point of it, and it makes sense for casual modes. But not for a comp ladder. Ladders aren’t meant to be “fun” they’re supposed to label your skill. Competition shouldn’t use any odds fixing.
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Why would I play a game if it’s not fun? Also I’m off for the day I’ll try to reply tomorrow.
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The game isn’t rigged, however match quality is an issue these days. I’ve decided that the last season was my final competitive season. Far too many games are far too frustrating due to other players not really caring about what happens anymore.
The final straw was when I had 3 competitive games in a row where I had teammates either start arguing amongst themselves or with the enemy, and then pretty much stop playing to have a match chat debate for the rest of the game and a game with an actual hard thrower after those three. It’s not worth fighting through the muck to get those few good games to get to where you want to be. Too much chaff and not enough wheat.
Blizzard isn’t keeping up with actioning players that are actively ruining the game experience for others. I’m sticking to QP from now on for the sake of my sanity and I can’t blame anyone else for thinking the same.
But Cuthbert and Receipts… the game is NOT rigged, for dozens of purely practical reasons. I’m not going to bother explaining because a hundred other people have already tried and it’s clearly fallen on deaf ears.
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I’m able to throw a TON of time into the game. My experience with throwers, trolls, and leavers are minimized. One or two games out of roughly the 20+ I’m able to play per day really evens out the experience… that being clarified, I’d like to say the following:
The quality of QP can vary much more wildly than Comp, from what I’ve experienced; me being the silver player that I am. There will be players that I can’t possibly overcome and matches, in QP, are too short for me to use my brain to out-think those types of players; which leads to a much poorer experience with the types of matches I get.
However, don’t let my experience sour your own! As long as you’re happy then keep doing it!
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Yeah I think most people are just putting them on ignore for the sake of their sanity and reporting the spam for what it is. Even the ones who haven’t tried to explain it to them yet have seen the attempts by everyone else and see that it won’t matter to them. People like them who do nothing but throw around buzzwords and call any disagreement “ignorance/censorship” or better yet that you’re just a “shill”, “fanboy”, or “blinded” show how they don’t care about discussion or “good faith”, they just have their cult to lead.
I’ve stopped replying to them as I recognize how pointless it is, they just throw out more buzzwords the more logic you give them. If only Blizz let us completely block people so I can’t see anything they say or do and they can’t see what I say or do at all like any other forum does.
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It’s not spam, it’s a logical disconnect. We’re trying to elevate awareness and have a technical discussion about the rigging and it’s ethical implications. No emotions, no opinions, just facts and consequences.
We’re actually interpreting them word for word semantically.
Well-founded arguments against technical rigging aren’t making excuses. They are separate from “why is this a <500sr match”. They are explaining that 1. rigging exists, because they have said it rigs for 50/50 match outcome, and 2. rigging is ethically wrong in a competitive environment.
You can draw your own conclusions about the effects of rigging, but you can’t deny it’s existence.
To show rigging, you only need:
If you accept that as being in the game, then you accept the game is rigged. Because, as per the accepted definition for rigging, to rig, rigged contests:
Which means the game is rigged. QED
They call it rigging for fairness, but real competition is fair when no rigging is done.
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Can you stop twisting Scott’s words? If they were TRYING to rig matches then they would NEED to have people outside the bounds of a FAIR match - where everyone has around the same MMR.
Rigging a match would inherently result in unfair matches.
The very next sentence of that quote is
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No. Can you please see the definition of rigging? As per the definition of rigging, it means you’re designing the match - you’re fixing the odds, and taking matchmaking matters into your own hands.
Even rigging for their notion of “fairness” is rigging. A real competition doesn’t rig for some 50/50 or w/e notion of “fairness” - it’s a fair competition precisely because the odds aren’t forced beforehand.
They shouldn’t be intending (or not intending) anything. Because that’s what fair competition actually looks like. It’s hands-offs. Sometimes that’s a fair match, sometimes it’s not. But the contest overall is fair, because nothing is rigged.
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The only way this is true is if the entire team that you’re matched with and against are robots. They aren’t - every single person in that game is a human being.
You can literally see the kind of AI that Blizzard have in this game.
Training > VS Bots.
and
Scripted encounters for events.
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Rigging means you are attempting, and implementing this intent, at all, to rig the outcome. You don’t have to be accurate, you don’t have to account for human behaviour, but if you’re trying to purposely ship a “fair” match - i.e. fixing the contest odds - however you calculated them - then you’re rigging.
Word for word the definition. This game tries to rig towards 50/50 match odds. We suspect always, each and every match. The rigging is always on active.
A true contest matches people around their win/loss records (say) and the matchmaker is naive/oblivious to player performance. You are randomly matched, you show up and perform enough for the win, or don’t. And the cycle repeats. A rigged system constantly adapts subsequent matches to prior performance. A rigged MM cherry picks players and teams, adapting the difficulty for “fairness”. Even if it’s under the guise of “fair matches” - that trades away “fair competition”.
There is no free lunch. Do you want your ladder to be fair, or your matches to be fair? “Fair matches” i.e. rigged for 50/50 sound fine to me in a casual mode where there is no effective laddering. Rig close games for fun/engagement - because it’s not an esport. But in comp? No way you can get away with ANY kind of rigging and call it “competitive”.
And this I’m quite sure is our maxim. It’s what Cuthbert, myself, et Al. have been saying for years.
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Are you trying to lure me into a conversation regarding Anchor stats?
Anyway, you’re giving the matchmaker, as well as the game designers, FAR too much credit. The matchmaker isn’t that smart nor that sinister.
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I just want there to be some terminology. The anti-rigging “stance” doesn’t want the rigging in comp. I mean there are other improvements the ladder needs like actual seasons, partial resets, smurf control, etc. There really isn’t enough maintenance to take ranks seriously, but that’s another topic.
So forget for the moment the inner workings of the blackbox that crunches your MMR and load-balances around that. The point is, there is this blackbox, it exists, a crunching does happen, and you’re shipped into a rigged match around that process.
They call it getting you into a “fair” match. We call it rigging. They clearly hate that word, but it is what it is (by definition). Rigging means to pre-arrange the contest odds (even approximately). A “fair” competition is supposed to actively protect from that kind of rigging. In competition, “Fair” means the odds are not acted upon, and you don’t implement controls over them.
NFL Theorem: If “fair” matches exist, then the ladder necessarily becomes unfair. And vice-versa (typically).
We both understand what you’re saying so… let’s try something a bit different. Could you, perhaps, give me a synonym for “rigging”?
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I can, as least as far as I agree. The matchmaker seems to put you both against better players, and pair you with worse players as you gain wins… which seems to force you to carry games, but harder. With that, also comes… you mostly remember stomps, one way or another, and good games… win or lose are farther between.
where I stay with the algo handicap group is… there are two metrics in one competitive arena that are counted. Masters and over are all based on W-L record. Diamond and below are all performance based. I argue that one metric is what is needed, cream will always rise to the top. I don’t care which one.
With that said, if you haven’t seen my name before… I only argue how to make things better, for all of us. I do believe my other accounts are where I belong, because I can maintain the rank there… and after this seasons placements I feel I had an unlucky last two seasons and am on my way back up.
I can tell when I’m going to win… and when I’m going to lose at hero select… and am rarely surprised. The only surprises are when someone else makes a mistake I’ve never seen before.
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I hadn’t seen this yet, please keep posting and thank you for the real information on the matchmaker.
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Great post man, the matchmaker is definitely broken. This post right here:
If you take Michael Jordan and try and put him in a “fair” match it would require you placing scrubs on his team to create a 50/50 match. Does that make it a “fair” match? Of course not, it’s completely unfair to MJ. If Blizzard matchmaking was involved with the NBA MJ would have won a total of zero NBA finals. With all of the smurfing going on no matter what tier you are at they will find a way to make a close to 50/50 match. That means if you’re in silver tier you have around a 50% chance of winning, if you were suddenly placed in a Masters match you have around 50% chance of winning.
The game is definitely rigged, broken, busted, whatever you want to call it, as long as it’s negative connotations.
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This is the correct interpretation. The rigging is for “fairness”. The road to helle was paved with good intent. I see no issues with casual matches done this way, but keep it out of comp!
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Then the game did not put you in an unwinnable game. There exists actual unwinnable games.
I wonder how much money Cuthbert has spent on alt accounts just to say:
"I haven’t seen this. thank you" in reply to their own topic.
It’s like they are a brainwashed cult and It’s pretty darn sad.
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Actually though.
I think I count 4 different alts commenting on the thread.
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