So is that a confirm 50/50 mmr rigging or deny?
Well thats not what I care about.
I need you to give me an example of a main stream game that doesn’t have rigging so I can go experience the ladder difference.
Edit: This way I can deliberately compare and contrast experiences.
1 Like
Ok but these are the OW forums and we’re talking about rigging in OW. So do you agree there is rigging in OW around hidden mmr that ships matches towards a 50/50 outcome?
Because it seems like we need to address this impass, first. Whether or not the industry does that is secondary to whether or not it is in OW. We can look into it. I mean that amicably, once people become aware and accept the basic dictionary terminology. Agreeing with the dictionary is kinda a prereq.
Then, we can probably move forward with your “compare and contrast”, whether it should be in OW, in comp vs. casual, etc.
2 Likes
If you win an “unwinnable” game, where you were the weakest link, some dude in your team just really worked his a$$ off to hardcarry you.
Yes.
And you will likely lose the next game or two.
Or so was my experience in the games I’ve been carried through.
2 Likes
Gold is…(to get to Plat)… start healing/ supporting your DPS players.
Plat is… learn to defend yourself from DPS, PEEL for your co- support. Also let feeder tanks die.
3 Likes
A perfectly good synonym in this case would be ‘handicapping’
I once saw a pink cat, I think it’s safe to say there aren’t many out there.
It does not mean ‘match against people of similar skill’, if means it will manipulate the team composition to give higher skill players handicaps in order to achieve a 50/50 probability of either team winning. This means your teammates and opponents are not random, they are picked specifically to make the outcome a coin flip. The MatchMaker™ might put you on a team where everyone is better than you in which case they have to carry you. If, on the other hand, it puts you on a team with worse teammates than yourself, you are expected to carry the team.
My problem with this is at <500, I should be the dead weight on almost every team I’m on, but my experience is that I’ve had lots and lots of matches where my teammates were throwing and no amount of my old-man reflexes were going to counter the average opponents. Statistically, it should be extremely hard to find people who are worse at this game than me since I’m like in the lowest 1% of all players.
As an old man, I’m not interested in ‘climbing’ as I’ll never be as good as the 18-year-old who has been honing their reflexes through games for the last 10-12 years; my physical skills are way beyond hope.
What do I want? I want to play matches where the teams are randomly picked from a reasonable range of SR/MMR. Just find the next 11 people who are within 200 SR or whatever and let us play. This is assuming they ever get serious about Smurfing / Throwing.
That is very black-and-white thinking there. You are 100% certain no other scenarios can exist?
If we created a with one of the best basketball players of all time, say Michael Jordon, on a team and then picked his teammates AND opponents in an effort to create a game where either team has a 50% chance of winning, would you say that it was ‘fair’ to Michael Jordon? How about his opponents? Define ‘fair’. Is it enough that the results can be boiled down to a coinflip? Then why even play competitive sports, each team could just flip coins to see who wins?
There will be times where you’re the highest person on the team and you’ll be tasked with doing the most work. The matchmaker isn’t handicapping you it’s just the luck of the draw. There is no reason for thinking that there is a built-in “you lose”-game just because you’re playing well.
There is always people worse than you and always people that are better than you, no matter the rank.
I’m 35 and have certain problems that inhibit my ability to play but I’m still able to climb and get better. I’ve been where you are, friend.
The statement I was replying to, if I recall correctly, was about things always happening in a specific manner; humans don’t act perfectly all the time so that randomness is just part of playing the game. We’ve all had that teammate that just won’t shut up about being “high” or “drunk” or “just woke up”, ect.
What you’re misunderstanding is that the matchmaker isn’t picking people at random to put against Michael Jordon - it’s putting Michael Jordon with and against another team of similarly skilled Michael Jordons, especially at high ranks where the grouping divide is 350sr.
2 Likes
That’s not how it works. It’s an average of your team. You can see it before every match, minus if there is someone doing their placements. then you can’t see this. There is a range… but as I’ve said before, I don’t think a Gold Tank-DPS-Support are equivalent to each other. I would argue that’s a fine system when role q wasn’t a thing… but now it needs to be one to one with role q. Plat Tans must be matched against a plat tank… gold support to gold support, etc.
Also an issue I’ve found that I don’t complain nearly enough about…
I can’t group with someone 1000 SR different than myself… but that SR will be placed within that range on my team if I’m not grouped with them… or on the other team.
3 Likes
‘Luck of the draw’ would be if team composition were random. In this case, the MatchMaker™ specifically chooses the teammates so this scenario takes place. Is this unclear?
The matchmaker can’t give EVERYONE in the game a team where they are THE BEST on the team ALL the time.
1 Like
It is indeed how it works.
The typical SR divide is ~200 without taking groups into consideration. When we do factor in groups it depends on where the player is. If it’s Master or GM the sr divide is 500 and 350 respectively; hence my analogy of Michael Jordon fighting and grouped with other Michael Jordon ranked players.
BTW, If you’re in a group the matchmaker does allow for slightly higher MMR players on the other team IF it’s unable to find a comparable stack size; However, most of the time, it’s able to match the two groups with appropriate stack sizes.
Team composition is semi-random and is completely random for Open Queue. The matchmaker does not know which hero you’re going to choose at any given time. It just sticks you in a game with other people around your MMR and tries to match players 1:1.
2 Likes
ok. It’s an average number. Agree to disagree because neither one of us has the data on this. But in my games if i’m the “Jordan” of that game, there is no guarantee that there is a “Jordan” on the other team. But if I were the highest on the team by far… and we averaged out to say 1500… we would play an average of 1500 players too. So it would seem that the “Jordan” would have to carry a team.
If I thought I played against or with players of equal skill all the time… I would have no complaints. I don’t play with players of equal skill. But I also don’t turnaround and say every game is bad. they aren’t. Sometimes the games are great on this account, even if it is low ranked. They’re fun. but if my tanks are silver, and the other teams tanks are gold… but their supports are silver, and my and my other support ar gold… to balance it out… I know I’m likely going to lose.
With that said, with the upcoming tank to brawler changes… this all may be moot.
Like I said earlier in the thread… I did a study of the matchmaker back in season 5 and 6, when all player profiles were open, and the majority of participants were within 100sr of my current skill rating. The outliers were upwards of 300sr away from the SR I had at the time.
This data was on the old forum, which has since been deleted, but I do have a link I made showing some of the data.
I hate that I don’t have the full set anymore as it was quite comprehensive with sr for everyone in the game, leavers, throwers, heroes, sr adjustments for EVERYONE in the match, ect. It was a masterwork if I’m being honest.
That… is barely any different. When we start going past 4k would this amount of SR have a considerable gameplay effect as the relevance becomes much more concrete the harder it is for players to gain SR (how high they go). I wouldn’t expect much difference between a 1700SR and a 2k player tbh
Good for you on winning the game though 
I’m glad you did work, but things also changed from season 5-6 to now… by a lot. As the matchmaker aged I don’t think it’s as close anymore… and less players play. You can’t even do that study now. We added roles cue since then, may have even just stopped "any hero any time. "
I’m not saying you’re wrong, Anecdotally, not that I care much anymore, I definitely in the past had people who were above the range I could group with. Maybe it was an anomaly. But it happened.
But that’s the problem, I really want to care about competitive… but I don’t anymore. I play hard and still try to win… but the feeling I’m playing against better teammates… while I’m playing with worse ones; that isn’t it. And a lot people say that.
2 Likes