Matchmaker has killed this game

Competitive Discussion
42

this is speculation but after watching this game devolve for 4 years and watching the BEST players abandon it,
i dont think a reset could make it any worse than it currently is.
Something is better than nothing in this case.

When something is declining, doing nothing just keeps it on that course.

There have been all sorts of alarmists warning us of the dangers of an mmr reset but no evidence.

This is all what if.

NO ONE WHO SAYS THAT AN MMR RESET WOULD DESTROY LADDER IS REFERENCING ANYTHING OTHER THAN A POSSIBILITY

And considering that competitive isn’t even a majority in the game, and it’s sull of leavers/throwers/inters/alt accounts
I would even say that i would love for those people to leave because of a reset

A reset would at the very least expose a lot fundamental game issues but also player issues.

An MMR/SR reset is also wanted by a majority of the playerbase

People who dont want a full reset are usually low ranked or casuals or don’t know much about the history of this game.
This is not a generalisation but patterns that keep showing up when this topic is discussed.

I have never heard a good reason for no reset
Matches would get chaotic?
Okay so what im hearing is they will stay the same

43

There was evidence. When RQ first came out, there was a full reset for a short amount of time.

You had OWL players in Gold matches. OWL players would place Gold after their placements. Soon after Blizzard suspended Comp for a short bit until they resolved the issue. Blizzard said that there would be some kind of a “soft reset”, and I do not know what actually happened but they managed to do a full reset, hence you had T500, GM’s and OWL players placing Gold.

Here’s the link:

One of many videos concerning the SR Reset in Season 18. Blizzard also then suspended the placement for Comp until they fixed the issue.

If you would do a reset now, I know, and I am certain that many others would agree, that I would most definitely not want to be put in with or against players like Emongg, Ml7, Kabaji, etc.

I personally would not come here and complain about my matches, if there were to be an SR reset, I would just wait it out, until things would settle down and ppl would get placed into their appropriate elo, but how long do you think it would take?

And in before someone else says “but the same thing is happening right now with T500 smurfs ruining every single match I play and prevent me from ranking up”, that is mostly bs, because ppl consider everyone to be a T500 if they beat them or if they are the MVP of the match.

Not hard to be an MVP when a Plat is playing below 500 SR. Ppl in low ranks are so delusional about their skill, teamplay, gamesense, that every single person who outplays them is a t500 smurf.

Those streamers who do unranked to T500 most definitely do not aim to stay in low elo forever. They never even reach Bronze. I for example watched Yeatle unraked to T500 on D.va, Zarya and Ball. He spent like one game in Gold, 2-3 games the most in Plat, during his placement and got placed in DIamond. Spent let’s say 10 games the most in Diamond, everything else was Masters until he reached GM. I think that he got to GM on Zarya in like 7 hours.

I do not deny the smurf problem in low elos, because I get them too, I cannot deny them even if I wanted to, but losing 2-3 games due to smurfs and you taking that fact alone for the reason you are not climbing is ludicrous. Loosing 3 games in a row will most definitely not prevent you from climbing.

And I have, never, ever had a smurf in 10 games in a row for example, ever.

1 Like
44

I hear a lot people say “don’t blame matchmaker fo you not climbing, just git gud”
And yeah if the issue was climbing, this convo would be over.
However, i dont hear anyone complain about climbing. i hear success stories every day.

I have not heard any complaints about not being able to climb tho

I’ve only heard complaints about toxicity, grievers, leavers, throwers,
match quality, lone wolfs, and boosted players, and matches that are either stomps or throws all decided before the match even starts because the MMR was just “doing its job”

This is another big contributor to why comp is dying.
People who want the game to be better bash their heads against both blizz/ow team not caring and a deluded player base that feels like its their responsibility to demonise anyone who wants transparency or change in how comp works

45

Go through this forum in a bit more depth and you will see how many ppl complain about their matches and them not being able to climb due to everything else, but never themselves. I agree, and I wrote it many times that the System needs changing, just like everything else in life. I agree and at the same time disagree with the fact that the balance changes are done around GM and T500 for example. As much as I understand the concept, and when I watch streams I most certainly see what they are talking about and/or why a certain hero is considered to be OP, but then again I also look at the most populated ranks in this game and those balance they do, especially with Tanks harms low ranks most than any other ranks. You cannot expect a Plat player to fully and properly use Sigma’s kit, the way it was intended. If they did they would not be Plat.

And there are many players who actually do not want to rank up and are comfortable where they are and simply want games in their own skill rating. I understand that, and I personally support those players in getting what they want. If on the other hand you are a try hard Comp player and your only goal is to rank up and become better, then you should not be complaining about having smurfs on your team, ppl who are in the elo you are actually trying to achieve. Ppl want to get to a certain elo without actually developing skills, gamense and what not for that particular elo.

I most certainly agree that the quality of matches is utmost atrocious. A lot of ppl confuse the terms “quality of matches” with “the System is against me”. They think that if they are playing in Gold they are expected to get heals, Tank to create space, DPS to kill etc. No, lol, you should not be expecting that in Gold. That is why Gold is Gold.

The quality of matches has went down because every time you Q up for Comp you get other Gold players who are like ppl on this forum, who are on their 6, 7th losing streak and they q for another game with the mindset of “just one win then I am logging off”, and that one win never comes because they are so tilted, they do not even notice how bad they are playing, and then they blame the System.

You can reset SR all you want, but an SR reset is not going to magically make you play any better than you did before the reset, is not magically going to make you realize how you CANNOT BE HEALED when anti, is not going to make you realize how you cannot keep shooting at D.VA with her Matrix up, and will most definitely not going to help against those bf-gf type of bs who duo Q only to DB their duo and never heal anyone else.

There is no SR reset in this world, or Blizzard action or whatever that is going to prevent me from throwing my next match if I am in the mood for it. You never know when one player is going to decide how you looked at him wrong while emoting and saying hi in spawn will be the reason for him to jump off the map the whole game.

2 Likes
46

I get that most people in this forum are below diamond and most of the playerbase, but im very disappointed with how people keep generalising ranks.
“gms complain about meta”
“golds complain about bad teammates”
“plats complain about smurfs”

i hate how gold and below are treated like idiots who should keep their mouths shut or that gms should care more about the rest of the ranks.

These arguments and discussions are useless until you see that everyone is complaining about the same thing
gms complain about smurfs and golds complain about meta.

complaining and wanting change are too different things and shouldnt matter what rank you are if you want change.

if a lot people feel very strongly about the same thing then we should stop trying to silence and attack their understanding the game

at the end of the day the main difference in the ranks is mechanics
no amount of gamesense or positioning is going to supplement for large mechanical difference.

Sure teamwork can help win matches with apparent mechanical differences but your sr is not based off teamwork

SRs have never accurately represented your ability to work with a team because for most matches you dont have to.

However, the game is changing and has changed and teamplay has become a point of contention in ranked because on the one hand, learning how to be a team player and all the hero synergies and how to min/max them should make you have great success in ladder,

SR is such a stupid thing in ow to be honest.
The game is balanced SOLELY with teamplay in mind yet there is absolutely no incentive in any rank to work as a team

playing solo q or with solo q people in tank sucks for everyone

you end up having two ideologies in ranked

having extremely high mechanics and enough gamesense to get value out of them(solo q/lone wolves)
or
having very good gamesense and using your team to outplay the other enemy team

i wish these could just go together and extra st harmoniously but instead you end up with high gamesense players trying to work with lone wolves and grievers.

The high mechanic player will always being countered by a team that works together
and the high gamesense player will always be counter by a team that isn’t interested in trusting his or her teammates or changing their playstyle that got the him or her this far because a gamesense player tells them to

it’s just frustrating personally because ive seen this for the past four years

someone pops off and then the enemy hard focuses that person then the team just starts flaming and grieving that the player isn’t carrying anymore

ive also seen high gamesense players correctly assess why their team is losing but either no voice chat or they have one tricks that dont play the heroes someone on the team wants

i’ve been in very good games where people work together, play around one tricks, successful execute cooldowns and ults combos,

but ive been in more games where it’s a mess and a smurf tilted the the whole enemy team or someone’s complaining that half the team isn’t in voice chat or the team refuses to play around a one trick

there are more than just these two ideologies and plenty of ppl who integrated both but with the current system you have people who got their rankings with very completely methods that arent meant to synergise with each other

just cuz people complain doesnt mean that they’re automatically invalid and should be ignore or shut down

47

Bottom line: As long as it’s profitable, matchmaker will remain the way it is.
As long as the community accepts non-transparent MMR, matchmaker will remain the way it is.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

2 Likes
48

MMR reset will destroy ladder. If you reset ladder, current ladder system will be destroyed and new one will be forming MMR and rank structure for months. So months of chaos. You could see the same in open Q in much smaller scale. Its pretty unbalanced there and players are still in ranks they dont belong in.

1 Like
49

if it takes MONTHS for a matchmaker to give u ur proper rank, than it sucks

2 Likes
50

I was under placed, its on new account. Thats my point. It takes too long on new accounts sometimes(same as reset) . But I didnt have to create nes account. That was my decision. Normaly players climb grudualy over time every season idk 100-200 SR if they really are trying to improve. Improved ng higher takes more time. And it should be like that.

51

BS…

Who cares if OWL players are placed in gold…

I am so confused. Everyone says MMR is gold standard, but then when OWL players get placed in gold, its like “oh its broken”… and OWL players in gold - isnt that WAY off their M/GM ranking they deserve?

Did anyone ASK why OWL players got placed in gold? Were they not good, or… maybe their teams were them holding down? (oh gee sounds familiar).

Stop seeding new accounts at 2000

52

Usualy they place in plat or Diamond. All accounts starts first placement match at 2350. Its designed that way. Owl players are placed lower than their main is, because new accounts cannot place above high diamond.

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53

Moronic system. Instead of having a botom to top flow you have flow from gold up and down creating all the frustration you can eat along the way…

54

so again, most OWL players place in diamond, but a few placed in gold because they have to play people other than their main?? But isnt the point of Overwatch is to know how to PLAY Overwatch and counter folks?

Maybe they deserved to play in gold cause they suck at other players lol.

55

Well its kind of hard without using QP data for placing accounts. 5 games is not enough to accurately place account. Not even 10 used to be enough.

56

What are you talking about? “they suck at other players”? What does that mean? If OW player place in gold, which is rare, they dominate and climb on top very fast usualy.

57

I am so confused then.

  1. You said it takes months to climb but they do it fast cause they are pros… ok
  2. If they can climb so fast, then why did the system put them there in the first place - YOU mentioned because they couldnt play their mains.
  3. The whole point of the “sub” topic was about MMR reset - “oh but owls get place in gold” but at the same time - “they dominate and climb to the top” - so then reset the MMR already, they climb out and those stuck in elo hello have a chance to prove themselves too.
58

Depends oh hero played and your main rank where where your alt is so how fast you can climb may be different based on these things. But I dont recall saying anything about how climbing to where you belong takes months. If i rember I talked about state of ladder after reset, where it would take months before ladder and ranks will stabilize. Before players would be where they belong.

In other topics I might mention climbing take months if you are trying to climb on your main if you are already where you belong. It takes months to climb higher because self improvement us rather slow process.

You should quote btw so I can know what I was talking about exactly and in reference to what. I think I do but I was talking about forming new ladder structure. Thats completely different from placing and climbing on new account in established ranks.

I already explain that. Its how placement works, its not exactly well designed for placing high ranked or very low ranked players on alts. Almost like blizzard didnt think that players will be creating alt accounts.

Except they wont, all player base will be squeezed into one place 2350. GMs, masters and some diamond players will be the first who will populate plat and the diamond rank, everyone else will be pushed down. Most plats will be in gold, golds in solve, silvers in bronze and former bronze players will be even deepwr in bronze. There will be outliers who will get lucky by being boosted by team mates. Just like there will be outliers from plat+ who will be unlucky and end up too low. Eventualy as top players form the highest ranks again, situation will start to be better and players will start climbing back to where they were before. But it will most likely take months and since reset would bring back many players back after long break from game, it will be pretty chaotic time. Also all alt / smurfs accounts which already climbed in past will be reseted. That will result in a lot if deranking and smurfing ng for a long time.

59

Just a rough calc:

For a population of N=10,000, it takes K=13 matches to sort everyone but the 2sigma (top/bottom 2%) winners/losers into a rank resolution of +/- 192 sr (0-5000sr scale). With (1/3)e tolerance you get 95% confidence that >90% of those players are within a 400sr band of where they should be in terms of raw SR. That is like +/- a handful of wins or a small 60% winrate grind. It gets better for larger N.

This assumes strict tournament-like gameplay. Wins/losses matter. Sandbag, d/c, or fail to carry - sorry not sorry. You can add some pbsr correction to hedge against unlucky and throwers.

So if you’re 2700 you fall into [2500,2900] range, 9/10 times. If you’re 4100 peak, (less than 100 ppl are for this N), you’re going to land more like [3800,4100] range. Boohoo.

Now, if you’re trying to place an account based on hidden analytical rigging (MMR) - it could take more, depending on how complex/data-driven the scoring is.

This is just an example. There might be some better, more adaptive schemes but the idea is within ~15 matches you’re playing at your skill level - which in this cases measures your ability to win against other winners and preserve your winrate.

60

No it doesnt, your math is way off. Just 5 placements and next 15 games with after placement bonus can throw you way off from place you belong. Usualy it takes like 50 matches before you are placed properly where you belong. Maybe even more.

61

Easy

  • do a gradual reset. Those who have old accounts go first for one season or week.
  • Every season after that go by year the account was created.