you donât âgive spaceâ like that. you re-enforce already claimed space. i.e. making symâs space control much more dependent because she can no longer take the initiative herself to go out and claim more valuable spaces and instead this just limits her to whatever space her team currently has â> lower value spots and having much higher down time on turrets because theyâll be spending more time just sitting somewhere not doing anything.
the âsitting there not doing anythingâ issue also further applies to sym herself given how youâre taking away her engagement and disengagement tool despite her weapon fires being low effective ranged (yes that includes orbs). you canât use for âprimary fire to damageâ if you canât get in range of it, and you canât get in its short range if you donât have tools to get you there â> making her much more team reliant in needing team pockets â> make her much more niche i.e. ingraining her into double shield team pocket deathball comps only.
? a flank is âgoing in, get something done, get outâ⌠how is that not âan escape tool while also enabling more offensive play styleâ?
effective zone control doesnât just stay in 1 place because valuable zones move esp in this fast paced game which has been made faster post shield nerfs. ârunning all over the placeâ is legit part of the job of zone control esp when sheâs a lower effective range hero. and not to mention, youâre hard ignoring the objective fact that people had to flank to make âoriginal symâ work.
it wouldnât be as simple as âstay behind a reinâ because various other heroes can contribute more and from further (i.e. earlier) to the shield break race and what this would mean is more reliant on double shield.
itâs legit ludicrous to inherently ingrain a hero to have a hard dependence requirement of being team pocketing to be able to function in over half of the game and is simply poor design given the game environment and how individuals are rewarded, i.e. itâs simply an unreasonable expectation.
zoning != being static as explained before.
âput pressure on slow fire rate heroesâ means hardly anything because sym orbs are slower firing than most weapon fires in the game. like sheâs got a sniper charge time on them for godâs sake. her primary isnât really a factor here because again, itâs a highly situational weapon fire, not a staple one.
you want it to be more different yet also want to make her play more of it leading to being more like zarya but being unable to because she legit wonât have any effective tools to facilitate it and leaving everyone with a broken (not in a strong way) hero⌠all because you just donât like moving around and donât like straight beams
itâs from most ranges objectively and she objectively doesnât have the same effective range as mei or mccree as numerically proven below:
YOU are making her have more down time in forcing her to stay outside of her effective range (inclusive of orbs) more in taking tp away.
yet youâre hard enforcing that she doesnât have the capability to do her in her own kit⌠your own point works against you i.e. you canât always stay in 1 place not moving in to play aggressive.
except it likely isnât enough survivability esp given the primaryâs range is legit frontline rank range and that change comes at the cost of not being able to being in range of primary to do so at will for a lot of the game, and worsening her already terrible staple weapon fire.
flanking is legit part of what sym is supposed to do. if you want her to press w to get more space, you should be reworking her into a tank. otherwise, flanking is how she will get new space. a zoning hero that canât get new space is just plain weak.
What Iâm not understanding here is what are shields supposed to be good at in this concept? If shields take 25% damage from projectiles and arenât buffed accordingly, then shields end up weaker than they are now.
And I know you suggested some shield buffs. Overall thatâs a non-comparable buff, itâs 12.5% for Reinâs shield, 14.29% for Sigma and Winston, Orisa gets 50% and thatâs arguably the only fair exchange there (cutting down on Fortify, which I approve wholeheartedly).
Keep in mind shields are already breaking like paper right now, any increase in damage is already on the questionable side, let alone 25%.
Iâd wager if we gave Zennyatta alone and no one else, 25% damage to barriers, just Zen alone would cut through those 12-14% extra shield HP so fast as to be meaningless, let alone the entire projectile-based roster getting the same buff. Or give Rein 2000 shield in the live patch, no damage buffs whatsoever, he would still not withstanding the poke spam comp without a second shield unless itâs Kings Row.
If this concept is to enable projectile DPS that are struggling and move away from no-shields or double shields meta, one needs to buff the shields proportionally.
The current status of the game is that projectiles already counter shields pretty dang hard. Zen, Hog, Orisa, Sigma, Hanzo, Echo all make a joke of shields, in any combination, poke spam comps are that strong. The flex DPS struggling against hitscan (Doom, Genji, Junk, Pharah, Mei, ReaperâŚ) arenât winners of such change.
I donât understand how are shield going to be good protection against hitscan if they canât stay up even against 2 sniper comps, which supposedly have low shield break.
Even if buffed in 1:1 (lets say 25% projectile but 25% shield HP), Iâd say that wouldnât work because that still 1 or 2 shields with 25% buff each, trying to withstanding the pressure from a larger number of buffed damage heroes, each with its own 25%.
Ideally it would just decrease extreme long range spam for some maps like Havana, Junkertown, Ruins. It really is just that, reducing some poke spam.
Thatâs a fair argument.
How would you find if instead of damage nerf, Fan The Hammerâs fall off was adjusted? So it keeps the 300 damage max, very good point there about the Flashbang duration (really rather not increase CC).
However, if FTH was spammed into a barrier for shield break above a certain range (Iâm thinking 10m) it does 50% damage? Barriers are so large that they often are a target for FTH spam. Shouldnât alter a Flashbang combo on 250 HP heroes given FTH spread makes it useless above shotgun range anyway.
There are 2 phases for the game. The fight itself and between fights where tanks can claim free space and march twoards each other or whatever play style you go for. Symm puts some pressure with her secondary and during the fight her turrets can get a lot of value. I see no problem with that. Again comparing to mccree who does excacly that.
Not a bad thing. Symm can choose the best place for her to guard forcing enemies into her positioning rather than risking space going into less usable space. strong immoveable defense can be greater than mobile attack sometimes, especially when you can contribute more damage in exchange. Wanna go overextend? have fun, itâs not always the best choice and even if it is. You can leave the turrets and push. Thereâs a reason thereâs a cool down on that thing.
And again I will use mccree as an example as he has the same case here. No mobility and very weak damage for range. Thereâs a reason you have tanks, a hero shouldnât be able to do everything by itself. Thatâs just bad design forcing dps to be self reliant while a lot of tanks and support pretty much deepened on each other. Itâs a team based game, not solo.
If you use your kit to get infront of the enemies itâs more of a dive but most people prefer going behind for more chance of damage. But diving with it is possible as wellâŚ
About the first part I would just say the gamer might move but the objectives only change every now and then. You have more than enough time and space to set up a strong defense and use it for what you need. Best example being Widowmaker. She canât really move too much as she usually needs the high ground, but she can pick a place and play from there. For Symmetra moving slightly back and placing your defense in there or even going for the enemies and placing turrets behind cover is more than enough.
Not every hero should run around the map like Tracer.
About the second part. Original Symm was problematic because couple of reasons
She was a glass cannon, low hp that takes ton of time to charge beam. Like you said, the game moves in a fast paste. If you will not be able to contribute enough under limited time youâre pretty much useless.
So sheâs
fragile enough to survive long enough
took too much time to get to level 3
and overall her turrets arenât oppressive enough. 3 turrets is something every hero can clean fast, especially with the amount of speed they reduce⌠While making a gate keeper you really expect something that punish slow push.
Symm 3.0 is a disgrace putting close to no damage at the start hoping to get enough time for level 3.
You canât really expect her to do anything in that state. And if youâre low youâre forced to use the tp and loose everything you got. Just like Torb got his rework to feel more awake so Symm need more uptime in her kit. Weaker yet faster recharge turrets, secondary that can actually put pressure, survive ability to keep the gate safe.
Every hero got a job and you need to be able to do it. Gate keeping is possible and works really well against a lot of slower heroes like Junkrat or Reinhardt but you just need the right pressure to be able to do so.
And thatâs what my rework does, it takes the point of gate keeping and increase her effectiveness at doing so.
Yeah I guess double shields might be better but we talked about going more offensive so Rein is just the better option out of the options in term of shield health+âmobilityâ (the option to push)
Iâm not asking for a whole team to be with her but again, overwatch is not a normal fps with everyone having the same kit and just going alone. Itâs a team based game and I really think it makes a lot of sense to make heroes more dependent on the other roles because why making roles in the first place in a team based game if not to use each other.
If you prefer fps like sc:go I canât tell you not to. But I personally prefer a game relying more on team work, countering ,synergy and strategy over just every player for itself.
Iâm talking about the turrets⌠Heroes like Junkrat or Rein donât have the mobility to pass the turrets too quickly, donât have the range to hit all of them always and donât have the fire rate to be able to destroy every one of them at once. All while her secondary or primary can put pressure on the targeted hero.
Her beam is based around time so if youâre fighting a slow composition that takes too much time to push because of your turrets or overall low mobility than you can easily punish them for their playstyle.
Her secondary is mostly ranged pressure because again. If youâre running a slow composition that needs to push in, even if the projectiles are slow you still need to dodge them delaying the enemies even more.
Dude, you are really acting like a snob right now⌠We get it, you donât want slow heroes and donât to even consider. Itâs fine. But the fact you look at the game like itâs a full fps where everyone is for their selves and everything has to move doesnât mean itâs the only way to make things work.
Slow heroes are part of the game and can do a lot even without any crazy escape ability. Brigitte was meta and was even considered good even after all of the nerfs.
Than I can talk about Brig, about Rein.
Her current secondary form is really bad but as a pressuring tool it can be really fair. My point was showing heroes that donât do a lot from range anyways. Besides, I see no problem at making her projectiles a bit faster if thatâs the problem. Still doesnât force her to have a tp.
You choose the spot to work with. Who said you have to put all the pressure while engaging. Sometimes itâs better to have more pressure in the fight rather than in the engagement itself. In Symmetraâs case use her abilities while the fight is on rather than before hand. With lower casting time you can easily send the turrets while also putting your own pressure. Itâs not Bastion who will get melted trying to transformate. Just a bunch of turrets enemies are forced to focus or be focused, making them again, more scarier the slower an enemy shoots.
Go with the tanks, a lot of heroes already rely on that, idk why suddenly going with your tank is a bad thing.
+50 shields that donât stop regenerating save her some healing and makes it so she only needs proper protection which again, is something a lot of heroes need.
You can say the same thing about Junkrat. Not every hero has to up 24/7. Sometimes slower yet bigger value is worth more than fast lower value. Best example being control points where she can place her defenses while the teams fight. Giving her the extra damage and the mess. No hero is good for every place and no hero should be good for every map. Makes a lot of sense to me. Besides a lot of heroes already play corner a lot. She just happens to have more pressure at the corner itself rather than sending it away.
Well, The idea here is to make shields more specific to a goal rather than general tool for blocking. Bastion for example can go through bubble almost instantly and no one complains about thatâŚ
I want shields to be more specific anti hit scan and anti beams kind of utility
rather than everything goes. Sure projectiles are good against shields but it still take quite a long time to break some of the shields⌠Not to mention some projectile heroes lack range.
My goal is to take the âoff tanksâ who are pretty much just big dps right now with a bit protection and force them to act like their role, have an importance.
Run Rein-Zarya?
Shield is for the hit scans and bubble is for the divers. No longer rein infront and Zarya just let him swing his hammer a bit more every now and then while putting ton of damage.
Running Orisa-Hog? Hog will make sure flankers will have harder time while Orisa takes care of the front hit scans.
I agree the current state of the game is kind of problematic considering we only have Zarya,Hog & D.va to work with.
But with the proper addition of new tanks. I donât see why not making the importance of heroes lie in more specific tools.
Zenyatta currently does 101.1 damage per second. With the addition of the buff he will do 126.375 damage per second to shield or about 14 seconds of breaking the new Reinhardt shield down from 18 if he didnât have the buff (still a shield with 1,800).
But lets say you had some sort of a tank with rein that has a limited protection that rely on projectile speed/fire rate/damage suddenly Zenyatta will be worse pick but maybe dive will be better.
Every other role has that factor were every hero is better for other situations. I see no reason not to let tanks to so as well.
As a tank player myself, feeling my protection and pick has a much scarier impact on game will feel much better rather than going hog and just playing big dpsâŚ
The biggest problem with Ashe for me in term of design is that sheâs exactly the middle ground between heroes like Soldier:76 who are medium range to heroes like Widowmaker who are long range, itâs very hard for me to point out the exact range she should have. Cool yet weird concept.
First of all thank you
Second of all, not only I love it but also I have no idea why it is not the situation right now. The ability feels so up close and so bursty that it really feels like a shot gun in the way itâs only effective for that range.
I really think itâs just a state that stayed from the start of the game where logic meant to them a bit more than balancing (same range as his primary fire)
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Nice to have a proper, polite discussion to change things up from the rest of the forum, wish I had 10 more like it.
Iâll have to reconsider some ideas here more carefully.
The thinking itâs great, but these perks needs to be more tunned. The whole idea of aoe bubble itâs great, but her overall energy would increase a lot. Thatâs a issue that could be problematic. Would like try tweak in certain aspects and see the behavior.
I see, but also I would consider other perk for barriers. Not flat increase their HP, because they decreased because of a reason. The rule of rock-paper-scissors could work to try to solve the issue with high hp barriers and low uptime (multiple hits deals less damage on armor, single massive hit isnât that heavily affected. Maybe barriers could work the inverse as armor - like: if the damage reaches certain threshold got mitigated by half, if not the damage goes in there fully). That would diversificate what kind of strike you gonna use for each type of âresistenceâ. Like:
Hp = no benefit
Armor = benefit from multiple pellets
Barrier = benefit from massive damage
Shield = hackeable and regenerative feature (could improve the QoL of Sombra)
The mei was about ammo which would increase her CC or damage per sec, or at least increase her lethality. About the divers, I suggested the ice wall HP increase to improve her team benefits for that and in other situations, she can freeze really okay right now. If she becomes strong enough to deal âsoloâ against tanks with freeze + secondary could break a bit her balance (she is not strong right now, but has decent utility). She needs her abilities being more interesting to use, without become broken(she and zenyatta has the same issue in that aspect, if you mess with then in the wrong aspect they become really strong). Tweak her icewall, because right now she can regenerate ammo on her freeze stat can at least generate more âvalueâ until further âbalancedâ theorycraft.
Iâm aware of that and maybe increasing the number could be better, but would need her turrets to deal a several less damage (like half from the current one). Also About her secondary pierce barriers could be powerful but could be nice if she ânullify/ignoresâ shields(hp from characters).
Iâm against about damage reduction (specific) but if the whole game adopt in a way that became equally could be great. Like beams being reduced on armor and armor penalize multiple projectiles. But Iâm not a big fan of orisa fortify(not the cc imunity, but the damage reduct), neither ana nano and roadhog take the breather. These concepts arenât healthy if you âlockâ them in certain characters, because make these abilities ânecessityâ. I donât like the ana nano but also I donât like mercy pocket, not because they are strong or weak, but because provide more a parasite/simbionte relation than cooperative playstyle. Heroes needs more freedom to provide diverse playstyles, while they canât be jack-all-trades.
Example:
Ana can work at long range, medium range and close range. But never will be great against barriers or without LoS with her team.
Wreckingball can be poke, disrupt or zone control, but with 1-3 CC on the other team he can become inviable.
Rein viability lies on how many folks he can protect and how he can stay alive on/to get the objective, often other picks got better value because his barrier wonât protect too many targets or wonât be needed.
Her ultimate has slow accumulative armor(15 per half second), has limit of how much can add(up to 100) and often works in a really small area of affect. I think itâs 8.5 meters and her inspire at 20 meters. Maybe 10-12 meters could be a sweet spot(most likely 10, to be on par with other supports range).
I would be okay if tanks could move foes more easily or have some perk to avoid that they become pushed like that. They open space and conquer the objective, so they could use some perk to âget valueâ from it. Even if they pay the price of losing some damage or survivability in the process.
Iâm a advocate of niche heroes, also advocate for more rock-paper-scissors mechannic. Some mechannics will nerf certains heroes more than others, but that hero can perform other tasks(providing a certain degree of flexibility), but if that number of threats increase he would become inviable in a way that your team canât help you, so a hero change could be the solution. This kind of behavior could increase the overall pick from a lot of heroes, which right now wonât be picked not because they are weak, but because other heroes performs okay where they shine and also performs okay where they performs poorly.
Maybe OW2 could provide us a way to mess a bit with abilities tweaks if Workshop already canât.
Sorry about the earlier posts, typing on phone itâs pain so I tried to be short in certain aspects in those posts before. Now Iâm on pc which helped a lot to track what I want to target in the post.
And therefore its damage should be considerably lower⌠Even lower than the former 2.0 DPS levels.
I mean you do need aim but not much, so I get what youâre saying.
Fair enough.
You can have Competitive skill/value ratios while at the same time making it so every hero is at least viable in a specific skill level.
It is an extremely difficult task, but these two are not mutually exclusive.
Okay, I guess I can somewhat accept thus philosophy, even though I do have my doubtâs about its effectiveness, as you listed Mercy as a hard - counter to Symmetra for example lmao.
youâre conveniently neglecting poke as 1 of the phases which is 1 where turrets do very little and often 0 in because of heir fragility + low range + los requirement â> needing enemies to walk through them for them to contribute something. and you making sym having to place them more passively â> lower value gained from turrets overall.
comparing to mccree works against you because mccree walks into range and for a particular angle to start damaging effectively from range unlike sym whoâs orbs and primary have much shorter effective range that doesnât allow such a liberty esp when youâre also wanting to take away the engagement + disengagement tool that supposedly compensates for that.
making symâs space control much more dependent on allies is a very bad thing as is limiting her opportunities and value.
not to mention again that this game isnât just about defense and youâre clearly tunnel visioning on defense only.
also relying on enemies being incompetent to overextend to get value is a poor design.
and no, âyou can just leave turrets [in places where itâs not contributing and just wait for cd to move]â is a terrible argument esp when itâs supporting poor placement of turrets. if you put it somewhere where the enemy very isnât likely going to go into any time soon, youâve put them in a low value spot and now theyâre adding 0 value until you move them.
tp actually helped facilitate turrets in letting sym put them in more places without the risk of them getting shot down i.e. let sym be able to put them in more valuable spots (as well as enabling sym to shorten the travel time of turrets so they can be set up faster). and youâre taking that away. and your justification is âjuST puT tHEm foR deFensE iN cAsE thEY ovEREXtenD. dW, itâS oN cD so pOOr pLacEmENt dOeSnât mAttErâ
except you simply donât with your design.
your design leaves sym with much less opportunities to be in effective range for orbs AND primary.
youâre nerfing her staple weapon fire whichâd lower her output damage immensely.
you even lowered her max primary dps which then lowers her overall end goal reward of primary (lvl 1 is only for like 1.28s, lvl 3 is for as long as you can stay).
she simply wonâ be doing more damage.
except tanks and supports arenât as dependent as you claim, and âitâs a team based gameâ simply isnât a good argument to literally take out the core tool that makes a hero function making them more dependent.
if âitâs a team based gameâ is actually a valid justification, then:
supports wouldnât have ANY self defence capabilities
dps wouldnât have ANY mobility nor sustain abilities
tanksâ damage would be a lot lower
but thatâs not the case. why? because every hero needs to have a reasonable amount of independence to function for the game environment that:
practically guarantees you have rng chosen teammates
rewards players individually
has balancing around the notion that players are rewarded on their own skill and good gameplay
players WILL have inconsistencies in their competence game to game
making a hero thatâs very highly dependent on othersâ competence to the point that such a hero simply wonât get much opportunities at all to contribute or simply so hard limited in what value they can provide, then itâs a bad design.
I donât see how thatâs refuting my point at all esp when flanks donât have to involve the flanker appearing at in front, back, side of whatever position relative to the targetâŚ
so glad you brought up widow, because sheâs an example that works against you. if a widow is playing well, she is moving to take up angles and sightlines past enemy cover/shields and to zone the enemy. sheâs not picking 1 spot, and camping there for long periods of time unless that spot has like sightlines everywhere without obstruction + no-one contesting her. heck this concept is why flank hanzo and flank widow is a thing.
thatâs not an argument you can make for sym nor her turrets given their low range.
not to mention thereâs plently of points that effectively move or get you to move. thereâs payload, soon to be push in OW2, and KotH gets you moving too (if youâve got the point, you donât need to stay there and can contest the enemy further forward to stop them from pushing closer i.e. can defend at a choke rather than waiting on point for them to come).
like tracer? no. run around the map? pretty much given how they killed off static comps with the tank powershifts + nerfs. and again, this is a fast paced game. if youâre not running around keeping up with everyone else, youâll get left behind.
tp literally lets you offload setup/charge-up time on turrets and orbs and beam to do so before getting in deep while also giving you an out.
is she currently balance? no. but the point is that tp is a core tool to make her function like any other mobility tool for a shorter effective ranged hero.
both of them technically do, and in junkratâs case, thereâs little reason why he shouldnât use mines to get himself out of turrets if he canât shoot them down quick enough. in reinâs case, itâs not that he doesnât have the mobility, itâs just that he canât reasonably choose to charge out/through turrets often because it depends on enemy positioning and it leaves his team without a shield to go through choke.
but you pointâs moot anyways because again, with your design her turrets will have much higher down time as theyâd be sitting idly in passive positions more.
many slow comps are not very viable right now and various other heroes do a better job at dealing with them anyways compared to your build of sym that relies on enemy progression to get opportunities unlike various other heroes.
no, projectiles being slower doesnât mean enemies spend more time away form the trajectory, it just means thereâs more time leniency for the enemy to dodge it. i.e. why move out of the way early when itâs moving so slow, when you can move out when it comes close enough to actually justify you needing to move?
strawman elsewhere. your design isnât even making sym a good slow hero and thatâs the problem Iâm pointing out. sure, I donât want sym to be more about w+m1, but your design doesnât even make her good for w+m1 either because no way does your proposed sustain actually compensates for literal 0 mobility and weapon fires with effective ranges of tanks, and a terrible TTK against others.
Iâve already said, if you want her to be more about w+m1 (which is what your design does), rework into a tank because thatâs the kind of sustain sheâd need to be able to play like that. nowhere have I stated that âslow heroes donât belong in the gameâ. so strawman elsewhere.
a really slow projectile esp with low fire rate doesnât pressure targets much at all. it just gives them more leniency to dodge it because they have more time to do so.
âa bit fasterâ doesnât really solve it unless your âa bitâ is like making them somewhere like >=100m/s (see meiâs, hanzoâs and orisaâs projectiles). if thatâs not the case, then the range at which projectiles will be âaimableâ will be lower â> needing a way to let sym get in and out effective range more often so she can get reasonable uptime
not really with your design because her options are hard limited by the space her team has claimed.
because her uptime will be completely decided by tanks. itâd be like deleting reaperâs wraith and shadow step abilities and then go back and say âoh just go with your tanks, youâll be absolutely fine, idk why this is a bad thingâ. you canât have a hero whose opportunities to actively contribute being so highly dependent on every other playerâs input that isnât the heroâs player. itâs simply poor design.
and to play junkrat effectively, you are moving around quite a lot to get good rebounds, to be spamming in more valuable areas, to land the bomb + mine combo for a quick pick, etc.
dude⌠your design leads to lower value and uptime like almost never.
I guess another aspect can be nerfing the energy even more from 30% to like 25%âŚ
But I do have to ask before, how her energy will be higher?
Right now she has 2 bubbles or about 80%. Out of the fight people will usually not hit the bubbles anyways. They are only effective during team fight. And then bubbles pop on left and right.
From my personal experience at least with Zarya, unless I die my energy usually stays stable on 70-80% which is higher than the new Zaryaâs max damage.
Of course during team fights the numbers increase to around 100.
Either way, Iâm just not sure how the damage will be problematic considering her current state I would speak about my rank to give perspective if itâs fair or not but the tank category for me is a very weird situation. started gold, somehow managed to climb to plat idk where, how or when and now Iâm keeping on climbing to almost diamond.
Iâm not playing a lot of tank but when I do I somehow manage to win games despite clearly being worse than enemiesâŚ
Well, I do think the current changes of projectiles doing more damage solve the problem as barriers now are more rock paper scissors with projectiles being good on shields, shields being more oppressive against hit scans and hit scans being good on projectiles.
But even if we donât go with that. I think that change might be problematic because shields usually counter hit scans and beams which are not always bursty or high damage. The only thing they have in common is being consistent & instant with usually a lower damage output making something with a lot of hp and consistent up time more useful.
Thatâs what lead me to the idea of projectiles being better in the first place. Projectiles are not instant, usually not consistent, donât have as much range and overall easier to counter because all of that⌠(flick a matrix because of speed, bubble to use the burst [lack of consistency] or hook for punishing the range)
So shields already counter quite a lot with beams and hitscans so why not giving easier time for one of the less useful kind of heroes by letting them be good against at least one protection.
About Orisa part. You do need to keep in mind at the end of the day tanks need to take care of their team members space and protection. Usually I would agree with you stat nerfs are the worst, but sometimes they are needed.
Current Orisa just doesnât have any shield to deal with anything, you canât expect a 600 hp barrier for 10 seconds or 60 damage per second maximum to hold itâs ground wellâŚ
Sure 900 shield was problematic because of double shields, if most heroes do the same damage then hp based protection is either op or underpowered. But if projectiles suddenly are better⌠Than the 900 is not as good⌠BUT Orisa plays from range, giving place for more interesting interactions depending on the composition.
Either way, new Orisa is more focused on range having weaker fortify but keeps the increased fire speed with the benefit of being better against shields while having a slightly better shield depending on the enemy.
I really believe double shields was a thing because
shields just block everyone the same
other protections donât provide as much
Fortify made her strong in every range.
So these fixes keep her viable and actually better against enemy shield, let other protections be in the spot light as well. all while fortify is less of a problem right now. I really donât like abilities without countersâŚ
Once in fortify every hero does the same against her, so the least they can do is making it weaker.
About the ice wall I really fear she will become better on brawlers being able to stuck them inside. Against dive the ice wall makes it so because dive is all about the engagement and then lack the damage because of consistency then 400hp is actually a pretty crazy amount of hp to go through. While brawlers who are a bit more settle with their damage having pretty much the same damage output during the fight will be able to escape easier.
But I will consider it as 400 might still be too little. but not more than 450-500.
About the tanks, tanks are easier to hit and freeze than dps, so the problem with her ammo lies with the harder targets to hit not the easierâŚ
Although Tanks actually become more problematic to freeze with Zarya having her team bubble⌠Hog passive doesnât help a lot too although it is easier to avoid or remove.
Meiâs power in the meta came from Orisaâs strong shield and aoe using her ultimate. You can easily ignore her with kiters or pokers. Once you messed up one kill combo she would actually have less value a lot of timesâŚ
Keep in mind both Pharah and Junkrat count as worse heroes so now with the current buff they will be able to deal with her very well.
It is already the case with the each turret does 1/2 the damage of an old one.
well, not 1/2 but more 3/5 of the damage.
But I agree turrets need to be worse in order to be more fair about the amount.
I agree about the jack of all traits but in Roadhogâs and Mercyâs case this is more fairâŚ
for Roadhog, his take a breather can be cancelled, giving the ability a counter and balancing it. This change actually reduce the resistance effect because take a breather is only 30% now, and if you play at more than 15 meters or use some sort of a cleaning effect you actually donât get reduction in your damage at all, making it so his damage resistance is much more balanced. Being only effective against close range heroes who canât clean the effect, stall it. Which are really not a lot.
For Mercy, she actually pays for the effect with much less total damage (Unless you damage boost Bastion of course) Her effect is more of a burst increaser rather than a damage boost to the team considering her own damage is much much higher than damage boost (Mercy does 74.1 damage per second including reload, with damage boost she only provides ~25 damage).
Not to mention she gives up on healing for doing so.
So with Mercy again, a more fair kind of parasitic relation as the heroes she enable are weak to the same thing as she is (sheâs pretty much only good with pokers and Pharah so her weaknesses actually stay the same and increase against heroes like Winston who can focus both)
with Ana I agree itâs a big problem having an effect without a counter, like many others I hope a new support will be added that can cancel effects. One ability to clean effects from team members and one for an enemy or some sort of multy purpose field. Either way she needs a fix to have more counter play.
Iâm not against parasitic relations as they encourage team play as long that they have a clear counter and not something with completely free value.
Take in mind itâs an offensive ultimate. You use it before pushing in so when your team is in they all have 100 armor. You should stay close while itâs active anyways. while inspire is more about the fight itself where people tend to move a bit more from each other. Either way I agree 8.5 is a bit too low.
But when you try using it before a fight it can become crazy good. Sure it only gives up to 100 armor but every hit you receive starts to âhealâ itself which is extra benefit of it.
I agree with you. While making a game about many heroes with different tools you make it so a hero has to have a specific job in order to shine and it really is the case for the game, but some heroes just donât do their job well enough.
so for that I really tried in the patch to fit heroes more closely to their original job while keeping counters as an option.
Which is kind of ironic considering we donât agree yet (Iâm sure we"ll find the middle ground at the end ) about the state of Mei (Just saying, 8 seconds of freezing up from 6 isnât too bad, at least make it 7 although the numbers will not be pretty).
I hope so, but with Ashe being added and Sojourn probably being another general dps Iâm really not sure anymore
Donât worry about it, I still enjoyed a lot talking with you even if it was shorter
I agree although there are always some âeasyâ punishments you can give to low skill heroes in order to make them more balanced like big hit box, range or just a very specific job that work in less place (In Symmetraâs case chokes,small rooms and thing like that).
lol I agree itâs a bit weird but I would gladly explain myself.
What most people forget about Mercy is that her gun exists and it has a pretty crazy fire rate of 5 bullets per second each one doing 20 damage see where I going with that? Btw I really didnât plan for that while giving Symm 5 turrets with 20 hp each, I just took the current numbers and fit them to more turrets Either way, she can easily clean the turrets while the team can focus on Symm herself. Not to mention the ability to fly and glide is very helpful against the turrets. Usually when Iâm talking about countering Iâm talking more about denying value rather than straight up damage and kills.
Like Zarya being able to block Reaper very well especially with the current changes, but with Mercy damage boost and her healing arenât that great against Symm, in her specific case itâs straight up her gun being useful.
idk if to call her a hard counter⌠more of a great value denier.
Not every hero should be good in every phase.
Most tanks are only effective at their own respective range and some heroes donât have much do in a lot of situations as well. Doomfist has noting to do against enemies on high ground, heâs forced to walk from the side with the tanks until he can reach them and only then get value. and he doesnât have tons of mobiltiy to reach there quickly. Most of that is just walking. Same about Mei.
And some heroes like Pharah has noting to do if you bring the fight to them.
In Symmâs case her secondary will be effective against slow composition that doesnât have the mobility to run away like Reinhardt or Bastion. Just like you donât hunt down Pharah with Reaper makes sense to me you wouldnât chase hit scans with her secondary.
There are 3 kinds of main play styles being poke, dive and brawl. You donât always have to put a massive accurate damage for value. Sometimes hitting a stationary comp with something that can pass shields or interrupting brawlers path is more that enough.
But even Mccre canât get any value without coming close enough, he has a very poor mobility and range of up to 20 meters. Sure he can shoot further with damage fall off but if you want to get most value youâd have to get close enough.
Either way, then refer to Mei if you prefer. Very inaccurate and sluggish secondary fire that like taking fights up close but donât have the mobility to do so and yet was meta. Even if her secondary is better than current Symm, I suggest giving her a piercing orb that will much better from range than Meiâs faster yet weaker projectile. The goal of symm is not to punish speed, itâs the other way around, so of course she doesnât need any too fast secondary.
Doesnât have to depend on allies. you can also use the chaos of team fight and place the turrets all around. The turrets are great in small places making them amazing in payload maps,control maps and some of the 2cp. I think I forgot mentioning that in my post but 5 seconds cool down for each turret is really not horrible gives her being a bit more mobile with them.
And what I meant for is that if youâre trying to push over what you need then yes, you donât need the turrets. You place them in the middle of a fight. I see no reaosn for every hero to control every range. Itâs just silly and makes the game a much more generic fps which I clearly stated this is not the path I prefer for the game considering the creativity it already has. So for Symm being stronger up close while being weaker on range is more than fine.
none sense, first of all you get more damage in primary fire leve 1 making faster fights a bit better for her rather than just hoping the fight will be close and super long. Not to mention 5 turrets is much harder to destroy if enemy team doesnât have any consistent damage.
Second of all her new ability keeps her alive more increasing her up time during a fight rather than using it to escape and giving up on all of her charge not to mention it even boosts your level making it much more useful. also enemies are slower near turrets making it a bit easier to get out of range of some close range attacks like Reaper or Reinhardt.
The output up close for Symmetra increased by a lot in this change.
Sure in a perfect world were both symmâs can keep turrets and primary fire the current symm is better than my symm in term of damage. But survive ability and countering has much more place in here. This new symm is more less general and more specific being good in some situations while bad in others. Which to me thatâs what this game is all about.
Every hero got some advantages and disadvantages and Symmetra should not be different.
Considering the fact almost everyone refer to her as a âglass cannonâ making her a bit weaker in exchange for more survive ability fits amazingly with her front-middle line personality
Thereâs a difference between depending on team members to doing your job.
Once you do your job you should it well but you donât need anything out side of that. Torbjornâs turret case use protection against some heroes but when divers arrive weâs fine as is. Reinhardt doesnât do any damage at all at the engagement but heâs close heâs gonna clean enemeis away from his space.
And same thing here with symm. I gave her much more survive ability with her new e ability and made her damage a bit more relyable so when you"ll need to self defense youâre gonna use it. The only difference is that rather running away you stand your ground. Mei does so, Bastion does so, Torbjorn does so. Itâs not a weird thing to have some sort of an ability to help you survive longer rather than escaping.
Same with Symmetra, lets say youâre fighting Reaper in a close space, then you can place the turrets around and use your ability to survive longer. It will be a great counter to him without needing anyone else. But of course relying on the team means that every hero has counters and so you need help from the team to deal with them. In Symmetraâs case her turrets are very fragile for range so of course using a shield is more than ok. I will compare it once again and say torb use it, mei use it, Bastion use it. Noting shameful about having a bit of help.
You talked about support for example, so moira needs to be good against dive so of course she will have a tool to gain distance. But she canât do much against Widowmaker.
Lucio got speed and boop but against aim bots heâs useless.
Zen is amazing at range but up close his damage is not always enough.
Donât know about you but in my games of course enemeis know how to counter Symmetra but if I see the enemeis run a weaker comp like Junkrat rein, even if they have Pharah I tend to use Symmetra offensivly with the focus being on the turrets and primary. Sure it doesnât happen too often but when it does it has a very respectable succeess rate. Just now before writing that specific sentence I went into a comp in ijang towers at night market, and managed to win my team a game using the turrets and pressure form primary fire charge. Donât need to chase enemies when you can make sure the important place is yours. More focus on the fight rather the engagement is fine and optional.
My point is most people use the tp now more for an engagement tool+ escape tool rather than just one the escape tool.
And even if you do use it as an escape tool only, you still harm the character more than helping considering you lose your level which takes so long to charge and give up on your turrets.
But all of that are a between fight kind of thing. You can do the same with Symmetra even without the tp⌠During the fight itself if you use the grapple you have no escape tool, enemies know your location and overall the cool down on that thing is very highâŚ
5 seconds turrets give you more than enough time to move your defenses without being too stationary.
The fact they killed static comps is something I also fixed with the patch. But it doesnât mean they donât deserve to exist. Every hero deserves a playstyle and Symm is no different⌠These heroes then pay for being more obvious in position but every hero deserves a weakness.
Besides, before doing the nerf they mentioned they try to switch metas in a much quicker and drastic way (rather than going for balanceâŚ) So sure, we had the torb-mei-orisa for a bit after goats, and then double shields but now running such composition is really hard.
But it doesnât like they removed the heroes.
This comp has as much power as any other comp in the right time. Having clearer weaknesses with more potential of power.
They tried buffing Bastion at the past and even Baptiste, he was added for helping exactly the composition.
If torb and Mei were able to be meta with a similar kit I see no reason for Symm not going for a similar direction considering the main focus of the hero is the turrets.
But thatâs the thing, Considering turrets have limited range and things need charge. Wouldnât it make more sense to increase her survive ability rather than her mobility? Youâd be able to protect your turrets much more and survive as much as now but without giving up on your turrets or primary fire.
In all clips Symm goes hunting using the tp and turrets as burst damage and Iâm not against a concept like that. But taking in mind she has multiple turrets and chargeable beam flanking just gives her more value because she doesnât need any survive ability.
Every close range hero can be good at flanking because they gain the element of surprise while doing what they normally do. But it doesnât mean close range=flanker.
Sometimes itâs good to make more hybrid heroes in order to have more focus on different stuff, in Symmetraâs case using her abilities as a gate keeper. Making new concepts and heroes is fine and cool. Iâm really not against a flanker with burst and beams But it doesnât have to be an already exist hero who were about a different concept⌠Thereâs a difference between a bad concept to bad balancing. Even Bastion was meta when he got too much buff. They just need to look at the original concept a bit more rather than just leaving her to be a split. because right now she has problems at both ways. Sheâs too fragile up close and while flanking she shows too many signals while also not being able to use all of her tools.
In chokes and small point Junkrat canât really escape or go anywhere. Either push in or out but he would have hard time passing. About Rein I agree he can technically charge but if he charge in heâs pretty much dead most of the timesâŚ
Same point as before. Medium cool down on turrets make them a bit more mobile while also not needing to get behind in order to get value. The focus is much more on the fight itself rather than engagement. Rein canât get any value from too much range anyways, same about Junkrat. So using a close range counter is a actually a very good way to counter these 2 without giving up on space.
The fact they are not viable doesnât mean anything. All the point of this post is to try and make everyone as good as they can while keeping balance.
and itâs not true saying other heroes are better because every hero got a place it can shine.
For example I can give you fighting Reinhardt-Sigma-Genji-Mccree-Brigitte-Ana.
You need something that can get value while shields exist but can also punish their dps.
Going dive is super risky considering their Rein,Mccree,brigitte combo is fairly strong on divers.
Kite is nice but again, sigma,mccree,Ana.
Brawl as well is just mirror even if you have Soldier or something like thatâŚ
Most anti shield heroes have big bodies so Ana,Mccree and even genji can use it pretty well.
And except for Symmetra I donât see any too good optionâŚSure other options can fine with a combination of the team but why going with weaker option when you have something that fit greatly.
The game tend to give more than one option for every situation in order to avoid one counter destroying the whole concept.
So Symm does has her place to shine.
Not saying that as a flanker she doesnât have a special place as well but for that they can add new hero rather than just taking an existing concept and changing it entierly.
First of all The easier part, against slow compositions the one you called not viable the speed of the projectiles donât change a lot because movement is already hard without loosing a lot of value. But about brawl I want to remind you Reinhardt has penallity of 30% while moving. Itâs already problematic protecting the team, now you also need to dodge incoming projectiles? Not to mention the team behind the shield need to react as well, while not everyone can see a lot from behind the shield.
You donât get kills with her secondary most of the time, just increase pressure on enemies before they arrive.
You kept on claiming she has to have mobility rather than being more defensive. Not every dps has to have mobility and having the survive ability doesnât need to be a tank. Torb & Mei are defnese heroes (Thatâs how they called the category) that act like a dps but with survive ability.
Defense heroes are kind of the middle ground between tank and offense being more similar to offense. Sure you donât run chasing kills but you donât give up space either.
Another important part of the post I made is to make it more clear about role uses. Making more stationary kills and/or high damage heroes is fine, still a dps. Tanks focus is on space and only the space while these heroes use more limited space for more power.
A fine design none the lessâŚ
You canât claim you didnât say anything about mobility after talking so much about how the tp is important and needed which is clearly a mobility based utility. Focusing only on the heroâs positioning.
When it goes through shields you canât really keep rein and hope for him to ignore it, and even if he ignores it. your team members are forced to be hit or get away from the shield giving your team more than enough space to react.
I would say around 60 m/s.
They shouldnât be too reliable but I agree a bit of a speed boos to them wouldnât be a bad thing.
Because Doomfist can really do much without his team?
Same about Torb, same about Mccree, mei.
Itâs all a matter of counters. Symmetra isnât supposed to counter too long range heroes so of course her kit wouldnât focus too much on them.
So again, Iâm giving Symm +50 shields that donât stop regenerating for a limited duration with more turrets that enemies should focus. A lot of people already donât use shadow step and wrath form has the same duration as well but without putting any damage at the same time. Not to mention Symmetraâs hit box is much smaller.
Not without the team. Getting picked by a sniper is too easy with his giant hit box. You are forced to stay near cover in order to get value and you need to get close in order to actually hit anything.
5 turrets, more starting damage, secondary goes through shields, aim bot primary fire and a new ability to increase survive ability. I have no idea how is that lower value. Just so you know not that it has to mean anything but just to inform you that a lot of people in the comments actually looked at her being a bit too strong requesting for a nerf to her primary fire with that changes so feel free to answer them as well if you want⌠If some heroes can have lower damage output, bigger bodies and weaker survive ability and be fine I see no reason for Symm not to be fineâŚ
except your design for sym makes her worse in about every phase:
poke phase she does practically worse than now because itâs pure orb spam now and lower damage orbs.
in a brawl, she HAS to wait for enemies to be in 12m to actually do something other than spam orbs outside their effective range. even in a brawl, she slower in getting to lvl 3 because she now HAS to rely on pocketing for charge all the time now + lower lvl 3 dps and defs nowhere near enough sustain to say there.
legit only good for like 2 heroes (rein and bastion as listed) + torb turret out of the many that youâd encounter esp when bastion is hardly picked at all, at the cost of global damage output decrease from orbs. I donât get how you see that as anything but a nerf.
did you like forget about all the tank powershifts and nerfs that basically killed off static comps?
you do realise 20m isnât anything short right? and that the fact that he can reliably land shots from further away is a whole world better than symâs orbs right? i.e. you canât claim your sym will be âjust like mccreeâ because she simply wouldnât.
meiâs projectile legit isnât inaccurate at all because itâs >100m/s (iirc itâs legit the about the same speed as fully charged hanzo arrows). itâs because of that itâs also got a longer effective range. in fact mei doesnât have low range as a hero because of her secondary projectile speed being so fast + the fact that mei can place her wall down like 30m or so away.
it is better and piercing doesnât compensate at all. piercing means nothing if an average hero can easily dodge them in most ranges because they have amples of time giving them a lot of leniency to do so.
this is your opinion
what slow comps after shield nerfs and all the changes to tanks to get the move around more?
slow projectiles â> lower effective range â> need some way to get in and out of effective range, which youâre saying to take out of her kitâŚ
>âdonât have to depend on alliesâ
>proceeds to talk about a situation thatâs completely caused and conducted via allies"
slow to set up esp without tp to shorten travel time, easily shot out of the sky esp having to only rely on them flying to where theyâre to go â> more telegraphed. all in all less places you can put them up and have to put them more passively which is pretty much useless in most occasions where you need to attack which is over half of the game.
look at all the heroes without balance problems like sym or bastion has. they all have other tools to facilitate them getting themselves into effective range no matter how long or short they are.
flankers or shorter ranged healers have mobility to let them get close for their shorter range while being squishy
snipers or longer ranged healers may not have high mobility but their range is long enough to compensate that.
heroes with low mobility and low range are typically tanks in having so much sustain to compensate that.
a hero that canât facilitate their own uptime simply will be left behind in this game. making a hero with low mobility, low sustain, low burst and low effective range isnât âcreativityâ, itâs just making a weak hero.
you simply wonât get in close often enough since sheâs got nothing to facilitate her getting in and out of her primaryâs range or even orbsâ effective range
youâre still hoping itâd be a long fight with her noodle primary because it still charges up and you even lowered the max dps â> take longer to deal more damage in a brawl. lvl 1 is only there for 1.28s and doesnât compensate 1:1 for lvl 3 dps.
makes her much more reliant on team pockets rather than her facilitating her own engagements â> much less opportunities to primary
itâs hardly enough sustain to let her stay in that range (literal front line range of the enemy) esp given how primary is a sustain damage weapon rather than a burst weapon â> demands longer time there to get value.
except sheâs go disadvantages everywhere with your design.
youâre not making any sense here. and Iâd argue that your design for sym doesnât even let sym do her own job: damaging and zoning the enemy.
hard limited in where she can set turrets up because limitd to passive spots only
passive placements â> more reliant on enemies walking through them rather than sym placing them to be snared soon
canât get in effective range of primary nor turrets to damage and zone
canât stay alive in effective range for primary nor turrets
a reaper kills in 2 shots which takes 1s iirc in which will be much quicker than sym placing up turrets around her + using the new ability + hitting reaper long enough with primary to kill him.
EXCEPT YOUâRE MAKING SYM BAD ABOUT EVERYWHERE BECAUSE SHE HAS NOTHING TO FACILITATE ANYTHING SHE DOES.
yeah⌠because tp IS her engagement and disengagement tool⌠I said that from he beginning. Itâs literally the core tool that makes sym function right now. like barrier is for rein or mobility is for tracer, or ga for mercy, etc.
it legit isnât âbetween fights onlyâ and if youâre only doing that between fights, then youâre playing widow poorly. this game isnât static.
she can get more sustain alongside having mobility, but if you want her to have 0 mobility, she basically needs tank levels of sustain to work. youâre not providing that, hence the problem.
look at reaper and df. why do you think theyâve got much more sustain than the other flankers? answer is simple:
their effective range is really small, and thus simply having mobility + burst isnât going to compensate and thus theyâre given more sustain as well. but do they have as much sustain as a tank? no. are they necessarily as mobile as tracer? reaper isnât. df arguably isnât, but heâs more mobile than reaper because heâs designed to literally not stay long at all (i.e. get combo off and gtfo).
at max he needs to travel 10m. when you include how high the turrets are from the ground etc. the needed distance to travel to escape turrets is shorter. legit not hard for a junk to do that with mine considering he can boom himself vertically, diagonally, or semi-horizontally, etc.
it does because it means youâre giving her a niche of nothing. i.e. âyeah sheâs good against a type of enemy that doesnât really appear often at allâŚâ
again flanking has always been a part of what sheâs meant to do. you canât expect sym to be able to walk up an take space from the enemy like a tank does without tank sustain nor does it even fit her theme. if sheâs going to take space while being squishy, sheâs going to have to flank.
preeeetty sure I already showed you the math around how an average hero (i.e. every hero other than genji and tracer who have naturally higher movement speeds) can easily dodge a sym orb at 15m let along longer ranges. orbs arenât so large that theyâll be moving a lot to dodge them, and neither are their fire rates high enough to make them be on their feet to dodge them.
reinâs teammates arenât confined to only being behind his shield esp when thereâs natural cover nearby. and also not every team runs rein.
thatâs just low value esp when various other weapon fires in the game can provide better pressure and have better capability to kill at the same time.
except torb an mei have a LOT more range than sym does. just like any other non-tank with low mobility.
none of what I said was âslow heroes donât belong in the gameâ. and all of it was saying how something needs to compensate low range, and tank levels of sustain is necessary to compensate for both low range AND low mobility.
they grab their own opportunities rather than have the team actively bend over to give them an opportunity to contribute on a silver platter. i.e. they facilitate their own uptime. thatâs not the case with your sym.
please go play a custom game of an ability-less reaper and do tell me how the experience was, how often you actually opportunities to w+m1 as you want with sym, how much down time you were experiencing i.e. how much effective waiting you were doing, etc. because that WILL be what your sym will play like.
heâs got the mobility for him to get to cover AND get close rather than forced to play further back and wait for the enemy to go to them for uptime, the latter which is what youâre trying to impose onto sym.
dude, people have suggested to only give lvl 1 dps 80dps instead of current 60 as the only buff and people still screamed OP and made comments about âomg primary will melt with that buffâ etc. despite being only a change that only effects finishing off enemies. the general community legit knows jack about sym and suffer PTSD from initial double shield days on top of their bias against her.
I know it sounds in theory like a lot. But take in mind beams are already very easy to track with.
So it only really helps with high mobility targets like Genji or Tracer.
Either way, it might actually be some sort of a nerf in some way as instead of trying to go left and right and miss shots staying in place and aiming at her will be more accurate and will provide more results.
not to mention with the current buffs to shields hp and protection buff to both Roadhog & Zarya. Symm will be a lot of times in a big disadvantage because of the front line either going full bubble on you denying any damage from you or just making your damage 127.5 damage per second instead for 4 seconds duration.
Last point is that the patch also buff the stationary composition quite a lot with Bastion,Orisa,Roadhog & Mei getting a fair buff which in theory should make them viable and as we know, One of Symmetraâs weaknesses is her range.
Iâm not trying to convince you in any way sheâs balanced or not as I did give her quite a lot of changes and it requires testings but I did want to point out these 4 points before judging her.
from most ranges objectively and she objectively doesnât have the same effective range as mei or mccree as numerically proven below:
so I tried to be short in certain aspects in those posts before. Now Iâm on pc which helped a lot to track what I want to target in the post.
I would speak about my rank to give perspective if itâs fair or not but the tank category for me is a very weird situation. started gold, somehow managed to climb to plat idk where, how or when and now Iâm keeping on climbing to almost diamond.
Either way, she can easily clean the turrets while the team can focus on Symm herself. Not to mention the ability to fly and glide is very helpful against the turrets. Usually when Iâm talking about countering Iâm talking more about denying value rather than straight up damage and kills.
about sym and suffer PTSD from initial double shield days on top of their bias against her.