If you don’t understand it, then you are failing at comprehending basic logic, and are being an enourmous jerk about it when I took the time to explain it. Good day.
4 Likes
I was referring to Mass Rez specifically. The 1:1-5 mechanic.
Yeah I can agree with this. Mass Rez is unnecessary for this.
It doesn’t. I’m arguing the SR calculation elements of Mass Rez are irrelevant to the reason for it’s removal. What you quoted, the “LIVING PLAYERS” is in regard to how every other ability/ult/etc in the game only interacts with LIVING players. Mass Rez did not. Therefore, you can’t compare it with or excuse it due to other ults. False equivalency, agian.
This thread is literally made by one of the biggest advocates for Mass Rez, it is completely centered around Mass Rez, etc etc… I think everything I’ve said has bveen prettty on topic.
SR exploit aside, it had game winning potential. You’re trying to tell me that it only was a thing because of the SR reward attatched to it. That’s ridiculous. If you lose the game, you still lose SR. You have to win, to some degree, to climb. Therefore, it clearly won games.
Meanwhile, in coordinated play, YOU JUST USED IT TO BRING UP PHARAH.
Trash ult. The SR elements, tbh, are irrelevant to the actual mechanical operation and interaction Mass Rez had with the game. Simple.
Yeah man. Reading through what I’ve said in this thread, I totally came to the conclusion I was failing at comprehending basic logic.
I’m going to have to work on that 
Then I misunderstood. My take is that blizzard only looks at rez numbers. Healing to rez numbers don’t matter, and death to rez doesnt matter. Each one is valued independently with rez being valued the highest. This hasnt changed and is why Mercy players with 15 rezzes that were all trash rezzes, eight deaths and only 9,000 healing will get more Sr than a mercy with 8 rezzes that were middgame and important, 3 deaths and 16,000 healing. Both won, but Rez stats favor a mercy that played worse because of rez calculation value
I am not attached to mass Rez. But removing it didn’t fix the issues of the game
Rez overall does not. It therefore should not be weighted in its reward as if it were.
I don’t really think it’s relevant. Pointing out the flaws of hide n Rez is not exclusive to advocating for mass Rez. Mass rez can come back, but it’s problem that I have with rez would persist. What matters is fixing Rez overall and the reward system for all of overwatch.
It didn’t tho? Not inherently. That’s why Mercy was bad. If mass Rez was so game changing, mass rez would have been meta. It was not.
Which was that it was extremely niche. I’m fine with that.
I told you before, imo Mercy shouldn’t gain almost any Sr for rez. This isn’t restricted to mass rez, but any form of Rez. It means she failed. Either in her play, or in her choice of a less utility hero. Rez should be given less reward value to mercy than healing, dmg boost, staying alive, or even ( with her 50hps) actual damage dealt. Rez, should be at the bottom of what defines a good mercy. This persists beyond mass rez. And if rez was removed entirely, we might be able to see how other aspects of her a weighted more and see if it’s fair or totally out of line like rez has been and currently is.
1 Like
You know, seeing as we both tried with words, I wonder if it’d make sense to detractors if it were explained like this:
Pre-rework Mercy
Game 1:
Healing: 12k
Deaths: 4
Rezes: 14
SR: 52Game 2:
Healing: 12k
Deaths: 4
Rezes: 7
SR: 26Game 3:
Healing: 6k
Deaths: 4
Rezes: 14
SR: 48
Post-rework Mercy
Game 1:
Healing: 12k
Deaths: 4
Rezes: 14
SR: 30Game 2:
Healing: 12k
Deaths: 4
Rezes: 7
SR: 20Game 3:
Healing: 6k
Deaths: 4
Rezes: 14
SR: 28
Obviously the numbers aren’t perfect, but the point of the pattern is pretty clear and can be seen. Although I kind of doubt even this would work since its been said to death and still seems to hard even though this pattern can be recreated at a whim.
3 Likes
Actually… I’m terribly sorry for my previous post. It was very unfair on my part. I was clearly venting on you due to my general frustration with talking about these Mercy concepts.
Very unfair… I’m sorry… You put in a lot of effort, and it was unacceptable for me to responded in the way I did. So I’m going to try to address as much about what you said.
When you had the 1:1-5 mechanic, it was logical for you to find hiding spots or whatever that you could remain safe to then GA toward the group and press y our Q. Like… That type of hiding, imo, was entirely unique to the 1:1-5 mechanic.
Imagine now that you went and hid in a corner, then waited for a team mate to die, then GA’d to them and pressed E. Very different, no? Easy suicide in a lot of situations.
The reason Mass Rez gets more “hate” than any other ult is because it’s the only one that interacted with dead players. Like… The line between alive and dead in this game is HUGEEEE. And it’s double edged. So in like low disorganized tiers it’s all “OH THEY HIDE AND REZ! OH THERE’S NO COUNTER PLAY!” and in any coordinated setting it’s “Pharah died, bring her up.” Because outside of that, you basically just got erased. People kill Mercy first 4head LUL. You don’t get a chance to hide.
I agree with this. Invuln change made the problem incredibly apparent. There was no easy way to address that without making 1:1-5 mass rez useless really. Like by adding cast time, removing invlun, and adding LOS. etc.
The inherent problems with the 1:1-5 mechanic were made more apparent with the introduction of invlun imo.
No other ult, no other ability, no nothing, requires a team mate to be dead. 1:1 Rez is one thing, but Mass Rez, where you’re basically incentivized to have more than 1 person dead (otherwise you’d be happy with 1:1 wouldn’t you?), is entirely different. False equivalency. What can I say?
I think the main issue between us right now, is that you feel the SR exploit was the big reason behind Mass Rez being problematic. That if there was no SR advantage, that it wouldn’t be a problem. I disagree, and feel that just by the nature of how it interacts with the game it would always be a problem in one way or another.
2 Likes
How I see it, in a lot of ways, is someone digging up a dead horse just in an attempt to beat it to life. Pointless. I feel there was really nothing that benefited the discussion about Mercy and her state in this game.
I’d like for the discussion to evolve beyond “MASS REZ WAS GOOD CUZ ____” etc. Realism. And honestly, outside of this thread, and even in this thread, people are more willing to consider and discuss the nuances and compromises regarding the situation. That is good.
This thread though. I don’t see that benefiting the discussion. “Let’s revisit thee absurdity of ‘hide and rez’” Lmao. Like the title itself won’t get people throwing salt in here.
It did. Otherwise you wouldn’t climb. Mass Rez was a trash tier ult, and would never be meta. Just facts.
Some people aren’t.
I know, we’ve discussed things quite a bit. I’m just on the war path of shutting down discussion about Mass Rez. It’s time to move on.
I’m sorry for coming across as like aggressive, I’m just reacting to what is said. I know you are open to more than Mass Rez etc. I’m sorry.
1 Like
I can understand this. It’s not a flat number perspective. It’s an interaction perspective. I just disagree because I feel that rez will never be of equal value to death (as seen in my other thread).
Moreover, for me, Your perspective doesnt really invalidate mine (and @reverendpaqo) imo. I think sr and rewards are still a problem. Your view of issues of mass rez should include my view of the sr issue. This would mean that there were two issues. And eliminating mass rez only fixed one. The other one persists because the issue wasn’t in the rez mechanic, nor even in rez itself, but an internal aspect of the game.
2 Likes
Thank you for that.
Not that it would make it go completely away, but that the most toxic cancerous portion of it would have gone away. Even if mass Rez doesn’t come back, the SR issue still remains and can be recreated, its just much harder and less obvious. The problem I have isn’t that its less obvious, it’s that its still there and could come back at any time in a similar spirit of what mass rez mass enabled.
The same would happen if suddenly the number of hacked/emped targets made up half of Sombras SR. Or if number of booped enemies became Lucios, or frozen enemies became Meis. Or halted enemies for Orisa. Obviously those are obscure examples but the result would be the same. If a mechanic vastly over rewards, even if its poor play, it will be abused as hard as it can be for the most gain it can be.
Edit: the real issue becomes when it over rewards so much that it permits people going up in rank when they lose more than win. I had 65% win rate with low Rez count because I tempo rezed and didn’t let people die. I dropped rank. My coworker played Mercy, let people die, got around 15 rezes per match, and was going up with 41%. I literally saw this happening.
3 Likes
Yes for sure. And omfg my cat must have like hit a copy and paste or something on that last post of mine. I was so confused for a second…
The SR issue was most definitely a problem. But it’s not like I can realistically convince myself to attribute it to people simply abusing the SR system. That’s because it’s not like it was just Mercy players making this decision. I had people yelling at me to hide, and also the classic “our boosted Mercy died with rez lul gg” even if I held it cuz I felt like rezzing them would just lead to feeding ult into the enemy.
I simply try to be honest about how Mass Rez played into this game, how it interacted with things. I’m not trying to push a narrative, and I’m totally down for someone proving me wrong. I am pretty convinced though that moving away from 1:1-5 and going to 1:1 was a good choice. Yeah, Blizz screwed up the transition. Feelings were hurt.
That said…
I do understand like the feelings, and all that, and I’m not saying they’re to be ignored or anything. I just wish we could focus more on how we can provide that feeling without requiring Mass Rez. I feel like we’re shooting ourselves in the foot before the race in a sense when we constantly bring up Mass Rez.
I think we have to understand where mass rez went wrong and address the parts of reworked Mercy that are still wrong before we can begin moving to a healthier place with her. She is balanced but she still has problems that aren’t getting addressed. It doesn’t even have to be now or soon, just so long as people recognize its a thing and its real, because otherwise we’re going to have another really painful awakening when it breaks again.
For that reason, I don’t see the discussions revolving around mass rez going away any day soon because its the only place to begin a comparison with Mercy.
Personally, I’d have rather seen Rez replaced with a short duration precast anti-death that kept people from falling below 1 health for say 4 seconds. You’d still have to heal them or they’d die instantly when it ended. That would fit better with “Heroes never die”.
Or valk with primary beam healing 100hps, all secondary beams being 50 (same numerical output as now) so that your targeting matters again.
3 Likes
I appreciate that. And I understand it’s late. I went on a warpath earlier today and it was just because I didn’t want to go to work.
For me, What I feel and what I am trying to fully express is that the Rework of Mercy created a catalyst of a string of bad design elements that I think have made the game inherently worse. If we don’t fully absorb what went wrong with reworking mass rez, then we will not fully see the picture of where this path of balance and reworks for blizzard have gone and will go for Overwatch. If we accept that Reworked Mercy is somehow inherently better for the game than Mass Rez Mercy, as players we won’t be able to see what is actually good or bad for the game.
Mercy is one of my least liked heroes and I basically only play her because Valk is about as bloated as you can get. But, her story is pretty integral to the course of history for Overwatch. If we don’t identify, understand, and demand better from her rework, We will only get more failed reworks that will get worse and worse making symms look like a minor rework.
Same… And it hasnt really left. >.> It was just more obvious back then. The masses have been bamboozled.
Oh definitely. But i think that extends beyond rez. Community attitude towards supports and utility in general is terrible. And people definitely do act like it’s only mercy which is hilarious because we have video of people who hated hide and rez mercys, telling mercys to hide because they simply “have” rez. Mercy doing it on her own was usually because they knew nano blade was coming and you can’t heal through that. But the second you had rez, your team demands you play how they want. But this is seen with Zarya and Symm and Sombra too. It’s just more obvious and toxic with rez (well… symm gets the toxic pretty terribly too).
Like I said above, for me it’s about fully exploring the nature of the Rework. I only joined the forums recently. I cannot speak about before. only now. I think this thread brings up a good point for hide n rez numbers only in the argument of people who believe mercy was hiding for legit entire teamfights regularly. I don’t agree with the entirety of this post. But I also don’t really care if someone is salty about it.
There was actually a whole thread proposing this as the correct counterplay. Made me pretty upset honestly, that’s terribly unfun for the support.
… i feel like I am looking into a mirror wtf…
I’m not one for such strong perma abilities. I would accept rez removal in favor of something like my own creation of “Valkyrie cry” in which Mercy’s weakness of selecting one hero to target is only slightly modified to have heroes in an AOE recieve a blessing to increase their damage and increase their speed. Mercy is a good dps enabler. This makes her not only help limit Lucios monopoly of speed, but allows Mercy to participate in the fight freely if her primary of healing isnt needed.
I accept #BigmainLittleChain as better than current valk. I just don’t like Valk overall. I would rather a single strong beam of Like, 120, 30 dmg boost, 20 speed boost for dmg boosted targets, and mercy had her ammo lowered but each bullet did triple dps, and her GA gave her movement a like, 80-100% speed boost. Valk lasts so long, this would still be very good and its duration could even go back to 20 if need be. I just really hate current valk >.>
1 Like
Yeah I can agree with this… The devil is in trying to actually agree on what’s wrong and what’s healthy… The semantic arguments surrounding the Mercy discussion is incredible. People are SOOO eager to just dissect what’s said and argue all this craziness around it… The OP is honestly a good example…
Fair. I think it’s important that we encourage each other to discuss these things considerately and acknowledge the positions and perspectives of others. Regardless of if we personally agree or not, we should try to seek opportunity to build a bridge instead of salting the earth and blaming everyone else for our suffering.
I think we can compare Mercy to many other things in this game. I don’t see Mass Rez as necessary. I too don’t see the discussion around it going away anytime soon, but I don’t think it’s necessary.
I understand that people are attached to it, that there’s like some legit addiction type stuff going on, that’s tough. I would like to try to find ways of appeasing more… reasonable Mercy players. Like the complaints are legit, it’s just some take it so extremely. Then we get caught up in pointing fingers at each other.
Thank you for being considerate and voicing your feelings toward alternatives.
This is what I’d like to see to be honest. Discussions about details like this. Like… Mass Rez has been dissected and discussed to such a severe degree it’s unreal. No other ability or ult even comes close to how far this rabbit hole was ran down.
I wish we could apply that to other things, like how we could give Mercy a feeling of impact, as imho Valkyrie is a shell of an ult. A relic of a time when it actually interacted with and was basically built around Rez.
This is fair. I most definitely agree that it is important to recognize what went wrong, and to try and learn from that. Willful ignorance benefits no one.
Hm it’s true. And it’s unfortunate. But it’s also kind of understandable too ya know? Like… I was an _____ to you guys too. Like, it’s easy to just attribute arguments and argue feelings. This thread for instance, it just feels like the wrong way to approach all of this. It feels like it was designed to really just antagonize. The OP seemed to want to just flaunt themselves as intelligent, and in doing so just ran down this flawed methodology…
I think it’s very important that we try to be considerate toward each other. Otherwise, it just boils down to us vs them. Terrible mess.
It’s crazy late so I might have to respond to the rest of this tomorrow…
Thanks N7 and Reverend. Regardless if we agree or not, I really appreciate your consideration and continued open mindedness. This is the kind of discussion I feel needs to take place. Again, so sorry for my abrasiveness and just… Lack of what I’m asking for lmao. Self awareness. I’ll do my best to reply to everything tomorrow. Gnite.
2 Likes
I worked on some game design of my own about 8 years ago. RPG where the goal was literally every ability had a counter and while you could out play them, it was extremely hard. In many ways it had a lot of similarities to Overwatch as it was initially advertised and sold. 6 classes, 4 tiers of abilities each, each having a pro/con and advantage/counter. It took 1.5 years I spent on character/ability design, 4 months on graphics, and a total of just shy of 3 years total, but our project dissolved and the IP and all the work falls under the ownership and copyright of someone who doesn’t want the game revived or continued.
One of the things we found REALLY fast was if the base was flawed, the future versions were flawed. I’m looking at Mercy and how she evolved and its like looking in a time capsule of past mistakes they are so similar in so many ways to ones we made. It drives me absolutely nuts because its so clear yet its so obscure.
Dunno, just felt like sharing that. At the time it seemed relevant but less so now.
1 Like
Something I always like to state from time to time: Titanium does not speak for all Mercys, and most certain does not speak for me. I agree with many things and disagree with an equally many things they say. That doesn’t mean I don’t take the posts and try to find contextual meaning in each of them and use it to further my own opinion of things.
Like, I get the path used with the averages and stats. I also get quoting past Titanium posts for numbers because you can’t get them directly from the source anymore and using multiple sources skews the data harder; the numbers had to be recorded at the time and they were. That makes it harder to establish any real numerical proof though. Additionally, there are so many factors that play into a match that it becomes impossible to account for all of them. Literally impossible. Certain liberties with values and assumptions must be made, for brevity sake and even with them it will still end up as a novel of numbers and hypotheticals. It will also end up with gaps or flaws and revelations about what was considered to be a widely accepted or local to the thread deduction is in fact a syllogism that now has to be sussed out wether it is valid or not.
All in all I think Titaniums posts are good because they set out to try to accomidate an impossible demand the best they can. The intention seems to be in the right place, even if I don’t agree 100%.
Like, I don’t think Mercy needs to keep resurrection, but I still maintain resurrection mechanics are needed in a game with abilities that can 1 shot someone. It’s a form of checks and balances against the value of a pick becoming outright universal no matter which target it is.
Assume you have 6 people, 2 tanks, 2 dps, 2 healers. You pick off a tank. Its now 5v6. The encounter is effectively lost. Unless there is a resurrection mechanic in which case the down team now has to spend resources to get that person back up. Now we’re back to a 6v6 and the abilities used to get the pick as well as the ability to reverse the pick are now gone. This leaves the picking team at a minor offensive disadvantage while the recovering team has a minor defensive disadvantage until both sets of abilities refresh.
Both teams need to think about how they are going to move forward. Now, if the pick was on a healer that was able to do the Rez, now we have an entirely different situation. Does the other healer have the ability to rez? If not, that is a MASSIVE advantage for smart targetting and skill to execute it.
Without rez mechanics, it doesn’t matter one little bit which person got picked. All that depth to on the fly compensation and variable impact is gone.
Another way I thought about it, imagine this scenario for overwatch:
Rez sickness: you can only be resurrected 1 time before you have to take a respawn (spent rez shows as a broken halo over your head)
Mercy: rezes with full health.
Evil Rezing healer (witch doctor?): Rezes at full health but the person is debuffed to take 10% more damage and deal 10% more damage.
Holy shaman type healer (an aoe anchor healer? Like blessings): rezes with additional defense and received healing is faster but the damage dealt by the person is less and they are unable to benefit from any form of damage amp.
Various other forms as you will, but much like Mercy they have very limited output to match the power of resurrection and the sickness preventing multiple times being Rezed without the long walk of shame and removal fron the match for about 20 seconds means who you pick off matters more. It also means there is a strategic calue towards building you team to stack and for your foes to do the same to counter pick. I think that’d be very interesting.
Anyway, it’s crazy late here to, so maybe there’ll be more tomorrow.
1 Like
It’s also hard to take the “revert movement” (or whatever term can be used for them that is not offensive) seriously when their so called “leaders” are actively toxic, call the developers names and actively silence any opposition. They even fight among themselves (Titanium and Aria Rose) and basically had one turn against the other and so on and so forth. It’s just nothing but drama and it’s not healthy for the community overall.
These people don’t even play the game anymore so their objectivity can be severely questioned. It’s just nothing but spam on the forums of the same thing over and over and drama. The game has moved in a different direction for quite some time ( almost 2 years now).
Not trying to offend anyone or to insult anyone just calling it how it is.
Bringing back Mass Rez isn’t the solution.
2 Likes
No, it’s all ranks aggregated together. Blue line is how heal per game changed over time and red line is how healing per 10 minute changed over time.
Spikes are there because it takes some time for Overbuff to populate profiles after a new season starts. But in reality, with the graph zoomed out, the spikes are barely visible since the baseline is 10k. The gaps are off-season.
So Mercy post rework gained around 2K healing/10 minutes, that’s a rather big increase
I think it’s closer to 1k. But yeah, it’s significant.
1 Like
That… Is so sad wtf
I am way more cynical. My criticism of games and mercy comes from my criticism of media and large corporations and capitalism overall
I hate the Incredibles 2; I think civil war and Batman v superman are equally bad; and I think the mercy rework covered up how blizzard didn’t want to fix the game.
I think that so long as short term money is the goal, actual good products is impossible for corporate and that’s a mistake. Taking time to fix the game properly is how you maintain and motivate long term players
I can agree with this. For me, the issue with rez comes in how Mercy has a total monopoly of it. And for me, I get that all 29 heroes can’t Rez for the flow of the game, but I think there was a missed opportunity to balance and spread the Rez power with symm and tp especially with her move to dmg.