Let’s Not Force a Narrative- Overwatch, EndGame and More

TLDR: We’ve outgrown Overwatch’s Original intent and forcing that story doesn’t have a
reason to work.

So I finally got around to watching EndGame and yikes. That was uh… a giant waste of my
time.

I don’t mean to be #edgy. But it just wasn’t a good movie. But I knew it wouldn’t be since it was
announced. So I wasn’t surprised. Just exhausted. And I realized it was largely because of the
forced narrative that I was so entirely over.
Prior to EndGame, there was the epic disappointment that was Game of Thrones. The pop TV series that took the world by the horns, just to dig its own grave. Another series I was expecting to end poorly. I had stopped watching because season 3 had some writing issues I was really getting exhausted of. But I returned for the Night Fight just to be completely disappointed.

One of the things I love about Overwatch is the lore and world that it is set in. There is a care to
the animations, voice acting, music, and environment that I think is some of the top of its field.

But I was really disappointed with Sigmas discussion despite loving what was placed in lore and game.

I fear that in the long run, this world is going to take a nose dive and it will be to the fatal flaw
that seems to be the trend for popular stories going mainstream: Forcing a narrative you’ve
outgrown.

Let’s Discuss.

A History of Success: Avatar the Last Airbender

I want to give an example of a series done good imo. Avatar the Last Airbender is one of the
most complete, wholly strong piece of storytelling that really stands the test of time. It has strong world building. Explicit themes. And Character driven narrative.

A large part of that stems from it’s episodic nature. But a large part comes from the outline of the story not being the sole focus of the tale. This allows the characters to grow and develop
organically and it allows for deeper relationships and meaningful interactions. This not only is
seen in the way characters act, but in the details of the story itself. Avatar has a lot of action but
the purpose of action is to tell a story.

The different benders have different forms of bending unique to them beyond just the element
they wield. There is a big difference between how Zuko fights, compared to his sister who is
also a firebender- Azula. And How Zuko fights evolves over time.

You also see where each benders’ fighting tells you something about them.

Katara, we witness- grows from being unable to lift water consistently, to fighting a master
bender head on. And what she does at this stage, largely differs from her assassination attempt
to avenge her mother. Younger Katara is less refined, and more aggressive. She is very heavyhanded in her bending, using large amounts of water to chuck at her opponent. Her attempt at revenge, utilizes quiet, more striking methods. She uses less water, and is more precise.

Katara’s evolution comes through her actions, her fighting, her emotions, and her environment,
Who she is around Toph is different than who she is around Zuko.

Avatar allows the characters to grow and develop in ways that make sense for their characters.
A strong example of this is seen in Katara. Katara is very motherly, but we see her be spoiled
and spiteful. Her mother is a point of hurt for her and she gets very defensive to the point of
doing actions that are fairly deplorable.

Katara isn’t deplorable because we can understand her plight. We know where her triggers are, and how she acts makes sense. Because they fully explore her character as she goes through different episodes.

When she goes to avenge her Mother, We go through Katara’s emotional, mental, and physical
struggles. We see her sleepless and exhausted. We see her struggle with her past as her guilt
eats her for not saving her mother, and her present by having to rely on Zuko whom she doesn’t like or trust. And we see her lash out not to just her target of kill, but even her friends and own brother.

“Then you didn’t love her like I did.” Katara telling her brother that he must not have loved their
mother was incredibly dark and harsh. But it didn’t make her friends, or the audience not believe it was something she could do. Because the writing supported such in the past.

Katara letting the man live was planned. But the main focus of the story was Katara’s growth. It
makes it believable.

Endgame- Forcing Character over Plot

I didn’t have high hopes for this film. I knew that there was no way they would properly do
characters justice let alone a comprehensible storyline.

And I don’t mean in a nitpicky, pedantic, “Why isn’t this called the Revengers instead of
Avengers? After all they aren’t doing this for justice. That’s a big sin. Ding!” or “It took ant man
forever to get used to the suit and now everyone can just use the suits totally fine? That’s a big
sin. Ding!” way. I mean in a-

You took years to develop this narrative, why did you toss it out for stuff that could have been
done in a manner that made actual sense?
One of the biggest issues I have with this film is Tony. Which was something I could have told
you when they announced that they were going to follow a Civil War timeline.

Tony= Jesus and we will MAKE IT SO.

It’s like, they got this outline and then did whatever it took to bend the logic of the world to
forcibly hit these two points because

We. Got. To. Wrap. This. Up.
Stares in GoT

Tony literally regresses in one line over what was an entire plot of one of his films. “I told you!
We needed a suit EVERYWHERE!”

What? Tony… you literally had a whole crisis over what was the validity of your weaponry. You
had a whole movie about capping the power in the world.

They emphasize that Tony is the only one who can make time travel work, but the end has
Bruce sending back Cap with no problems, all on his own.

Is Shuri the only smart person in Wakanda?

Why go to Tony, who you know has a daughter in this time, to go do something that if not done
right could have him risk everything when you have. Other. Options?

And it’s because of the narrative they wanted to force. It’s not just about plot, but about making
Tony as sympathetic as possible while also as grand as possible while also a pseudo “chosen
one”

Despite this entire line of story not even needing him.

There was no reason to fight to get the stones into the truck, especially as Tony just… used his
hands to address the giant war around him. There was no reason, that Captain Marvel, who
seems to handle the stones’ power just fine, to snap her fingers instead of needing Tony to die
over being the “Savior.”

Captain Marvel was their powerhouse, and she… took out the ship…. Why wouldn’t you have
her just… end things?

It’s not just that Tony had to die. It’s how they had to bend the world to ensure how he died.

We go against the arc of his character built for the last 3 movies. We kill his motivation for the
last 3 movies. And we have to ensure he not only dies but dies saving the galaxy. And what I mean is:

Tony had an arc defined around learning the value of seeing things smaller. He used to amass
wealth and fame from large scale business then learned where it hurt smaller people. He
learned how he was hurting his friends. He learned how he scared not only other, but himself.

And he learned the value of saving and protecting one life and the despair that could come from losing it (Spider-Man).

And then in the movie itself, we have him talk with his dad and learn the value of time.
So Why Force him to die in a way that goes against all. Of. That?

He just remembered the value of time. He just had a moment of understanding what it means to be a father. These are small scale aspects of life. And we forget that because we need to force
tony into dying for the galaxy.

But- just spitballing here- You could have had an equally emotionally charged moment of death,
had Tony sacrifice himself to Spider-Man prior to Captain Marvel arriving, and kept his arc
intact. Having Peter safe, Tony looks at him as says “I’m not losing you again, kid” or “I plan to
keep both my kids alive this time” or something not only emphasizes his lesson of family, small
scale life lessons, strengthens Peter’s bond with Tony, Allows Peter a way into Pepper’s life
later, and doesn’t break Tony’s entire cinematic arc.

”Game of Thrones- Forcing Plot over Character

It’s fair to say that the ending of Game of Thrones was… not well received. But I do feel a lot
comes from nitpicking or not fully taking into consideration the whole of the story in relation to its ending.

A lot of hate is given to Dany’s arc, her ultimate death, and how she briefly turned into Super
Hitler. The Hitler that FLIES.

But tbh, I think that was fairly expected back in season 3 if you had any eyeballs to how the
women in the series were treated.

No, I’m going to say that the aspects that went wrong largely followed Jon Snow, but were most
obvious with Tyrion.

Tyrion was a spiteful, prideful, hateful little man in the beginning of the series. He was conniving,
tactless, and near vile as a person. He explicitly said that he would gladly die if it meant that
others would suffer for it. Even death was a price worth paying if it meant being petty.

Here’s the thing. Peter Dinklage is very good. He is a good actor. And it meant that people
started to look at the good for Tyrion and becoming a fan favorite. And Fan Favorites… have to stay palatable.

The largest deviation from this disconnect imo is Tyrion’s relationship with his girlfriend, Shae.
Because Peter Dinklage was allowed to be charming and charismatic with her, the actors
formed what looked like a fairly strong, stable relationship. Which deviated from the books. So
when Tyrion was supposed to kill her in a fit of rage, the writer’s were at a loss.

So they took the plot point, and kept it despite it no longer making any sense.

By this time, they had let Tyrion evolve more into an audience insert. Tyrion was less spiteful,
and more kind. How can we get him to full-blown kill her instead of just waiting or not doing it at
all? And How do we do it, while keeping Tyrion sympathetic?

The show bends itself around ensuring that Tyrion doesn’t reveal his spiteful, cruel nature ever again despite that being his. Whole. Point.
And it goes so far as to ensure that he is safe from being vilified even at the very end.

Why would Tyrion have issues with Dany killing people out of spite? He literally did that. Why
would Jon and Tyrion have issues with Dany killing people in rage? Jon literally did that on a
personal level to a child? Tyrion’s family tried and searched for the starks to do the same. Why
would Tyrion have a conscious for any of this despite him being

 Constantly wrong- the whitewalkers did exist unlike what he told dany
 Gave Dany bad advice- Dany was able to win her battles easily
 Has said he trusted her ideals- why would her being pretty be an issue when plenty of
other pretty women have existed in his life?
 He has killed the woman he loved- why would he lead Jon to Kill her when Tyrion has a
history of killing women and being just fine with it?

Nothing supports Tyrions motives. His entire arc was changed to the detriment of his character.
He doesn’t grow. He doesn’t change. He just… falls back. He doesn’t DO anything except
apparently forget the one thing he was supposed to be- which was smart and a strategist. The
core of who he was tossed aside to give Dany bad advice, hate her, and remain sympathetic.
Where the Avengers bend the characters to the plot, Game of Thrones bend the plot to the
characters.

Overwatch

Obviously, there isn’t the same amount of lore for Overwatch as these other series. But I
actually find the platform of the game to be a unique experience and one I quite like overall. But I am hesitant to push forward because of the issues that I think will occur from a forced narrative that really isn’t needed.

Overwatch is stapling itself into archetypes and that’s not inherently bad. But those archetypes
are stapled into the characters and not necessarily the plot. This concerns me.

It concerns me because there is no real reason to have the narrative they give in interviews and
implications when the story itself doesn’t seem to lend itself to it.

Again, I’m not trying to be Edgy™ by saying that I don’t think Overwatch is Good™.

I think that like Game of Thrones, they have certain plot points they seem to have intents for
forcing despite it not lending itself naturally. And Like End Game, they have certain Characteristics and development they insist on pushing despite it not being organic.

The largest example of this imo is the aspects of Talon Vs Overwatch.

We seem intent on Keeping Talon #Evil and Overwatch Good™. But as far as what we actually
know-
 Current Talon is different than Old Talon
 Doomfist has only hopes for making humanity better
 Moira doesn’t seem to do things to others without a good intent and their permission
 Talon doesn’t discriminate between humans and omnics
 Talon doesn’t seem motivated by money, fame, or power  Talon allows its members freedom and security

What exactly is wrong with that?

The things against it… aren’t confirmed as to why.  Why was Widow Taken?
Why does she stay?
 Why is Widow Hostile to Ana but not Moira?
 Why does widow only kill who Is needed (she killed mondatta and tried to volskya, but
didn’t bother with Tracer).
 Why does Moira hold no ill will to Overwatch?
 Why does Reaper have more anger to Overwatch, but not Moira?
Why wasn’t overwatch omnic friendly? Why did overwatch not help genji when he was just
going through his changes?

By trying to be, “Complex” for the bad guys, and keeping the good guys as simple as possible,
you make it seem like Overwatch is a bunch of yes Men and that the bad guys actually kind of
have a point.

Which means they aren’t really bad guys.

I mean, sombra isn’t even concerned with daily strife’s. She’s over here big mad about a
looming threat to everyone… and she’s on the side of the “Bad Guys.”

I’m concerned that through future Lore, we will start to come across more sigma “implications.”
Where Jeff is saying that Talon has “taken” him, despite the fact that he was in a facility with no
help, being treated like a lab rat. Talon taking him out, and finding a way to make him mostly
stable, and free to be outside seems…

Pretty Good? Kind even? His interactions aren’t finished but he seems cordial with Moira and
Reaper. Not angry or crazy.

Like, how hard do you have to spin that Talon is evil when they free a brilliant person, stabilize
him, give him control of his body and condition, and ensure that he feels safe and okay in his
own skin?

That’s a pretty far stretch.

Mei is one of the sweetest characters in Overwatch and while she feels a bit uneasy with Moira, Moira is cordial and respectful. It doesn’t seem like Mei has any issues.

And while in-game interactions aren’t cannon, they do reveal personality. Character. I don’t
except to hear “Too Slow! Ha ha ha!” in a cheery voice from hanzo. I would be a bit thrown if
Mercy said “Only through Conflict do we evolve!” every time she gets a damage boost assist.

If they want to keep this narrative of Good vs Evil, Talon needs to start showing genuinely evil
stuff. Which means committing to a plot which we haven’t had set up. And it has to fit what we
already know about Talon characters. But each voice line, every cinematic just hasn’t building
up to such imo. And as it stands, it would take a whole lot of time to make such a narrative this
late in the game.

Women in Storytelling- A Tool when Organic

It’s no secret that one of my most disliked characters in Overwatch is Mercy.

Imo she’s bland, basic, unseasoned chicken and annoying because of it. Honey traps remove conflict and it’s bizarre in a hero who was part of a private police/ military force. Mercy is like… Final Season Tyrion with no growth. And its funny. Her one voice line they added that I like is one I see a lot of hate for.

“Someone call the waaahmbulance”

I am here for mercy having spunk. Have some character beyond the heal lady. And I think they
really aren’t utilizing her and moira to tell a narrative that would be stronger than the one they are trying to force with Jack and Reaper.

Avatar the Last Airbender has a lot of women in it who were allowed to grow and change
organically. Compare this to its successor and failure- the Legend of Korra.

Korra had plot points and ideas for women that they insisted on forcing instead of allowing to
happen naturally. “Korra Is strong but fails” “Asami is pretty but like, also smart” and they keep telling the audience this, instead of showing it.

Avatar’s finale ends a bit underwhelming with Aangs fight with Ozai. But it’s major strength
came with the fight between Zuko and Katara vs Azula.

By not forcing the fight to end with Zuko defeating his sister, you allow all three a satisfying arc.

Azula still loses to her brother and faces the despair of defeat. Zuko learns the meaning of
relying and protecting others. And Katara rises above her hate to help the person who hurt her
deeply.

This fight is one that gives a satisfying ending without forcing a narrative onto the man.
And I don’t mean that in a… Let’s go Feminism! Way. But as in… you set up these women. Use
them. Don’t go out of your way to create a Strong, Female™ just to toss them aside when it
doesn’t make sense.

Dany rose to power because of her own strength and her own prowess. She already was a
leader who was beloved and followed based on her own merit. She already was in a point of her
life where she didn’t want power, and she learned to embrace it and make it work.
So why force the narrative to Bran when Dany was already there?

Why establish how special Captain Marvel is, demonstrate her power, explain how she is
special and then not use her? Why only Show Scarlet Witch at the very end, and not have her at
the final moments? Why wouldn’t they have asked for Valkyries help at all?

Why force this narrative of Steve and Tony when it isn’t needed? The people who had the most
development that was organic was basically Thor, and Nebula. Everything else was
superfluous.

Overwatch has one of the largest rosters of women in any video game. And for some reason,
they rather focus on Jack and Reyes despite the WHOLE POINT OF MOIRA’S CHARACTER
EXISTENCE being to serve as a Counter Coin to Mercy.

WHY WOULDN’T YOU WANT THAT TO BE THE CRUX AND CENTERPOINT OF THE
STORY?

In fact, all the perspectives of Overwatch would be great if told through the women and it came
because just like Game of Thrones and End Game, they made strong female characters™ who don’t need no man. But it means NOTHING if you don’t use them.

A Narrative of Mercy vs Moira
 Brig vs Pharah
 Symm vs Lucio
 Rein Vs Orisa
 Tracer vs Widow
 Sombra all by herself.

All of these provide an insight to both sides of the “good or evil” nonsense to allow the
players/viewers a good look into the workings of the world and plot.

But this doesn’t work if you:
 Force the characters against their growth
 Force the plot
 Or don’t utilize your creations to the fullest extent for the sake of some overarching
narrative
And you especially have no need to make every woman some disappointed in men, stereotype
either. The Legend of Korra is a good example of how just having women isn’t enough. You
don’t get “diversity points” if you don’t utilize the story. Forcing Korra into situations and
contrivances doesn’t move her story forward.
She doesn’t grow, relationships aren’t built. She’s
just boring and in the end a waste of time. And ultimately inferior to her predecessor.

Strong Female Characters being Useless Makes Men Stupid

When you force women down, it just emphasizes where men are useless. Kind of rooted in
History where it took WARS to get women into the workforce, and showed that… umm… more
people doing things… gets things done? Wymyn can do a thing?

But if you set up women to do a thing… and arbitrarily discount them… you just force men to be idiots.

How is it that Tyrion, missed the signs of Dany being #SuperHitler? He’s supposed to be the
smart one. How is it that Captain Marvel just… didn’t try snapping her fingers? Why didn’t
Tony… suggest it? He’s supposed to be the smart one.

It’s one thing to have useless women being saved. It’s another to give them the tools,
resources, and ability to do a thing… and then not have them do a thing.

Compare this to Mass Effect. The story functions and flows fine even when playing Female
Shep, because her gender doesn’t make the story. Her actions do. Every bit of resourcefulness,
intellect, and leadership in John, goes into Jane.
And the members of your team are specialized despite gender. Not for it. Tali is a good tech
person. So is Legion. Liara is a smart doctor, so is Mordin. Relying on them regardless of their
background or gender is important and not meant to be discarded. If you don’t rely on Tali in
favor of Mordin… you could kill Mordin. That’s not his expertise. They don’t have the same
buildup.

It’s ridiculous that Iron Man with his billion contingencies in every other aspect of his life,
wouldn’t build a contingency for literal time travel. Who knows what thanos might have done?

While Nebula’s arc wasn’t really something Iron Man could have foreseen, it definitely stood to
reason to check and recheck things to ensure that everything was safe and okay.

Why would Captain America, with all his experience with Wakanda not enlist any of their help?

As far as the audience knows… literally nothing is happening in Wakanda that would be keeping
Okoye busy from such a major fight.

Did he just… not bother to check?

Iron Man would definitely know that captain Marvel is infinity stone connected. Why would he
not reach out or give her a fancy NEW pager in case of emergencies when he is clearly having
a crisis and trusts in her power?

Just… felt like dying I guess.

And it really wouldn’t matter if they weren’t following the same trend of GoT with

The Symbolism

Being Diverse only matters if those diverse people are used. This was grossly ignored with End Game where they Literally had to dump all the women into one scene because they had been incredibly underutilized for the entirety of the film.

And I understand the issues that many films go through when they make an OP hero. For
example, while readers of the Death of Superman know that Superman comes back OP as hell after he dies, the Justice League of the DCEU didn’t. Superman in two of those films is strong, but gets beat in 2 out of 3 films he is in. Batman V Superman made it seem like the two were not going to make it had wonder woman not stepped in to essentially take over.

So when you write wonder woman to be the OP hero, having the next film with them both in it
and having her need to rely on him makes no sense.

You wrote the Strong independent woman who don’t need no man… who suddenly need man?
So which is it? Was superman just… having fun getting tickled to death? Did he not know he
was OP as hell? Or was wonder woman just slacking off while he was dead?

The same happens with Overwatch in different ways.

Baptiste has immortality field. And while I get some things aren’t lore based like rez… it’s
certainly weird to make a tech reason for immortality that mercy seems unaware of.

It’s kind of weird to have McCree be so spiteful to Moira when she was the one who kept him
and Genji safe and secure. And Unlike with Mercy recovering Genji, As far as we know, Moira
would have been the one to care for Mccree and he came out far better than genji did.

Its super strange to write Widow being a strong woman when she’s out and about. But then say
It’s actually fake and she’s brainwashed but not really but Doomfist is manipulating her but he
also thinks that’s a stable way to go about things.
Sombras literal launch was around her sneakiness but lo and behold. She a dum dum.
Everyone knows. Her name. Her face. Her plans outside of talon.

But we’ll just say that doomfist knows? HOW DOES THAT MAKE HIM SMART? What is the
logic behind letting a criminal do as they please when they are hired to get a job done? Why
would he trust her again? In what way does trusting a dum dum not make doomfist a dum dum?

I am all for diversity. I am. But you can’t write diversity just to be diversity points.

As far as character execution, I love overwatch. Soldier and tracers coming out was nicely done. I love the heritage behind each hero.

But when it comes to the overall plot lore… It seems like fear of emphasizing anyone makes them fall to no one. And it doesn’t work well when you have interviews countering what the audience infers on their own.

There are natural points in overwatch that can be easily written with what you’ve gone out of
your way to establish. You don’t have to and you don’t have a reason to really force a narrative
especially when you’ve explicitly said that’s NOT what you want to do. I know I am an outlier
when it comes to my perspective of Talon. But I have this perspective through what I was given
and the design of overwatch being so open.
As lore continues, there’s no need to force heroes to be a certain way or do certain things.
Keep it natural. Keep it organic. And utilize what we already have.

I hope the future heroes don’t have the narrative pushed on us like Sigma. I just want some fun
times without contrivances holding the story from developing naturally.

Thanks for reading.

2 Likes

This is just a mess of a post.

6 Likes

Overwatch doesn’t have a story. It has lore. 3 years in and we don’t know…
a) why Overwatch was disbanded
b) what Talon actually wants
c) why Reaper and Soldier 76 fell out
d) how the Recall is going

Something like 1/3 of heroes don’t even exist in the story. They’re just independent entities that are in the world.

Until Blizzard actually TELLS a story, all lore discussion is irrelevant.

7 Likes

Thanks for your insight. It helps me none

I did accidently post thus in general discussion but. I think criticism and expression of concern is fair to reflect on and discuss for an active project

Overwatch aside, i’m liking your post just for the dissection of what was wrong with endgame and GOT.

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Pffft thanks dude . Disappointment is universal I guess

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What does any of that have to do with Overwatch?

If you read it…I’m sure you would see

I did read it - it was a lot of talking about good narrative stories and complaining why Overwatch isn’t like them. Overwatch isn’t a narrative story, so its comparing apples to cucumbers.

2 Likes

I specifically talk about what overwatch does that I like
And I’m taking mostly about how it parallels what I think are BAD qualities from other stories with regards to character. Plot isn’t my focus. Character is.
Which is all ow has. So I find it fairly relevant

Technically, this one is never really fully stated, but it can be inferred from the different archives events and the actual recall itself that Overwatch was disbanded because of things like Blackwatch and the uprising. Overwatch fell out of favor of the public, and the higher up government officials didn’t want to deal with the backlash and the ones in charge of Overwatch threw them under the bus for a lot of mistakes that piled up and disbanded the team because of that.

But the main point is we don’t technically know the true, FINAL breaking point that caused it to go out. Was it Maxwell? Was is the many dark deeds of Blackwatch? We haven’t really been given a final answer there.

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While fun, I don’t think I need to know everything that happened. Some storytelling is good even if the plot is scarce because of character. I think for this game, character is most important

I read the first sentence of this post and then just stopped.

I’m still going to follow this post to see the meltdown this post is going to cause.

1 Like

i dont know many popular threads in story discussion but… sure

Didn’t watch Avatar and am in the middle of GoT season 3, so I’ll try to avoid some points with unfamiliar names, or GoT names that I recognize. I’m also skipping those sections entirely, so if I say something that you already answered, that is why.

Before going into detail, the core narrative of present day Overwatch right now is still in the starting phases of Overwatch and Talon are assembling. The problem I see happening further down the line is every hero gets lumped into either Talon or Overwatch and then there is a big conflict. This is what I do not want to happen. I want there to be neutral parties, or people who do not join either side like Jack/Ana, Zarya, a potential character who enforces the Petras Act. I want there to be entire factions that don’t get lumped into the main plot, and simply exist because the world is a big place, and they don’t need to be directly tied to the plot, such as Helix, the Junkers, and the Deadlock Gang. The flaw I see coming is that they will all combine forces against or with each other, and you will get some weird story piece of a Junkrat/Moira team up against D.Va and Baptiste or something along those lines.

Disclaimer that these are all my interpretation, and there could be many disagreements in terms of what constitutes as a main character or core plot point.

Talon and Old Overwatch

I think some of these can be clarified on.

Current Talon/Old Talon could be more specifically defined as Profitable Talon (Antonio, Vialli) and Doomfist Talon (When he first took power 6 years ago, when he reclaimed power in Masquerade). Profitable Talon just did classic villain stuff because it made money. Arms trading, money laundering, “protection” money, stealing priceless artifacts, assassinating those who get in the way, etc. with the end goal of making a profit. Doomfist Talon seems to be more geared towards using that profit and turning it into a purpse: Start a war. Now like you said, Doomfist only hopes to make humanity better, but he wants to do this through starting another war. The type of war that almost wiped out humanity 30 years prior and ravaged the world. And that’s just Doomfist who has the goal of improving humanity. Others on the council like Max (money launderer) and Sanjay (Vishkar builds homes in places ravaged by the first crisis) have an opportunity to make money from a second omnic crisis. Doomfist wants to evolve humanity by bringing them to the edge of extinction, while others just want to become war profiteers.

Now others on the council like Moira and Reaper do seem to be following their own goals of research and killing ex-Overwatch agents, but their inclusion seems to be more just mutual interests. Reaper and Talon both want to kill ex-Overwatch agents, so Talon provides him the means to do so. Moira wants to continue her genetic research without financial or ethical barriers, Talon wants her research and development so they can genetically evolve their troops (such as the Assassin.)

 Talon doesn’t discriminate between humans and omnics

Now this is the big point where I bring the question. Based on what? I’m not saying they do, but every agent or member of Talon shown thusfar has either been a human or a cyborg, and Talon’s ultimate goal is to start and then win a war against the Omnics. The only “ally” we have seen was the potential Null Sector leader 6 years ago, and even he is likely just a pawn to start the war that Doomfist intends on crushing once it starts.

The organization does not have 1 singular goal because the council all have their own reasons. Profitable Talon simply wanted to make money, but Doomfist Talon wants to evolve humanity through conflict (and make money along the way)

Your points are not exactly incorrect… But they’re not correct either. They’re all mostly correct with a major catch attached to each. Doomfist only hopes for improvement… By starting a war that will also kill billions of people. Talon doesn’t hold one motivation of money or power… They’re all individually motivated by different things towards a common interest, which is their ultimate goal.

Widow was taken so she could kill Gerard. Talon sent many assassins after Gerard. They failed. So they took and turned his wife into an assassin. She killed him in his sleep. She stays because they had conditioned her to be loyal, and only feel alive when she takes a life. For why she only kills who is needed… Aside from “plot armor,” I think its mostly just how they conditioned her to control her “appetite” for murder. If you create someone who only feels pleasure when killing, they’re gonna love killing. If you tell them to kill 1 person, they’ll probably kill everyone in the room including that 1 person. If you tell them to only kill that 1 person and any threats along the way, they’ll kill the security guards, the target, and then leave. In other words, Widowmaker is conditioned to kill who she is told to kill, and enjoy killing those specific people.

Of course, that’s just my interpretation on her condition.

For why Moira has no ill will to overwatch… Why would she? Reaper has a personal vendetta against them. He has a few lines about them leaving him to die, and McCree’s bio speaks on the idea of a pseudo civil war where agents took sides with and against Reaper. I would say this also answers the whole Moira thing too, where she likely took his side. Or as some others like to speculate, Reaper took her side of Talon.

Why wasn’t overwatch omnic friendly

Overwatch has had canonical Omnic agents, such as Wildebeest as seen in Recall. There was another omnic in Recall as well, which people often mistake for being Echo (if it is Echo, this was never confirmed by the devs.) Likewise, their early days were as a force that was designed specifically to fight against Omnics. In their latter years however, they were praised for saving King’s Row against the terrorists sect Null Sector (Who happened to be omnics, this was not an anti-omnic fight for Overwatch,) as well as the life of Mondatta.

As for Genji, he is 0% omnic, if that is what you meant to imply. Them not helping him mentally is all part of Mercy’s motivation against Overwatch, among other things. Overwatch kept weaponizing her medical work with the “intent” of saving lives. Genji, the Biotic Rifle, probably Moira as well without the intent of saving lives.

This was also old Overwatch, which was a lot more corrupt, with agents of Talons and profiteers lining the ranks, and not much care towards their actual “intents” as much as they were with results. The main plot is moving more towards Winston’s New Overwatch, which would only be illegal in the name of the Petras Act, and would also likely be a smaller party of heroes that are true heroes who band together. The ranks right now include:

  • Winston (Leader)
  • Tracer
  • Mei
  • Reinhardt + Brig
  • Echo
  • speculated Genji
  • speculated Torb + Bastion

This party lacks any of the corruption of old Overwatch, and is also made of a lot of people who are either shown to be pro-omnic (Tracer, Reinhardt, Genji), an omnic (Bastion), a robot that some speculate is an omnic (Echo), and Torbjorn whose most recent character arc was about changing his anti-omnic ideals.

With what we have, Good vs Evil is going forward well.

SECTION TLDR

Winston’s Overwatch is good, old Overwatch was corrupt and bad. Profitable Talon was only interested in money, Doomfist Talon is interested in war for various reasons including money, evolution, and mass murder. Their motivations are meant to be more evil.

Women in Storytelling

Mercy is a pacifist. Right now, the majority of her relevance to the themes and story of the game is about old Overwatch’s corruption using her tech and patients as weapons. I wouldn’t call her a honey trap. Her current actions are working in war torn areas as a doctor, seperating herself from both Overwatch (old or new, the organization was shut down for a reason in her eyes) and Talon (obvious reasons.) As she is now, she just wants to save people without further contributing to the tools of harm like Genji or the Biotic Rifle. If she gets any development, it will probably be from Talon sending a hitsquad and Baptiste saving her life.

They focus more on Jack and Reaper because those two are the core characters of the crisis that destroyed Old Overwatch, not Mercy and Moira. Moira is just another sign of the corruption of Overwatch which weaponized her research. They are not arch-enemies like Soldier 76 and Reaper. I would be disappointed of Moira/Mercy did suddenly become the centerpoint of the story because that would feel out of place, as neither are main characters in the current plot. They’re both secondary.

Granted, Soldier 76 and Reaper’s conflict is also not so much the main plot as it is the main B plot, and the main plot of the history of Overwatch. In the past, their conflict was the core overarching story of the fall of Overwatch. In the present, Jack isn’t part of the Overwatch vs Talon story that’s going forward. If his voice lines in game are anything to go by, Ana and him do not plan on joining Overwatch anytime soon.

I would say the bigger problem here is that no one in modern Overwatch has someone they can call a rival or arch-enemy in Doomfist’s Talon, except maybe Tracer and Widowmaker. And even then, Widowmaker isn’t even leadership or on the council, she’s just an agent. Doomfist is the kingpin, Max is the money, Moira is just there for research, Reaper has his vendetta against everyone but mostly Jack, and Sanjay is still underdeveloped.

Even if you did have Mercy vs Moira… It would bring more focus to two side characters. Over the whole story, past and present, I’d say the main cast is:

  • Tracer
  • Winston
  • Widowmaker
  • Reaper
  • Doomfist
  • Jack Morrison
  • arguably Ana Amari

The only good vs evil here is Tracer/Winston are big heroes that want to save the world, while Widowmaker/Reaper are motivated by wanting to kill people and Doomfist is a warmonger. If you add in Soldier 76, you get the historical good vs evil, as well as his present conflict with Reaper… But their present conflict isn’t as important. Throwing in Ana, and it feels like she is mostly just an accessory to Soldier 76, like Maria Hill to Fury.

There’s a bit of a mess with the loads and loads of characters.

Now here is where I will defend Mercy (Up to this point, i didn’t think I was defending her). Its okay for Mercy to not be an important character because she’s not that important of a character. There are many many unimportant characters, male and female, in Overwatch. Most are less important than Mercy, like Zenyatta, Lucio, D.Va, Zarya, Sigma, but there are still some who are as important as her if not more so, such as Reinhardt, Torbjorn, Ana, and Moira. But at the end of the day, they’re just secondary characters. Like Dr. Strange and Scarlet Witch, they exist and do get their own plots and stories… But they are not in the overall spotlight of the universe like Tracer, Widow, Winston, and Reaper.

If you go back to my interpretation of the Overwatch main cast, you have 2/3 girls and 4 guys. But I’d divide that more specifically as:

A Plot:

  • The protagonist (Tracer)
  • The deuteragonist (Winston)
  • The protagonist’s antagonist (Widowmaker)
  • The overall anatgonist (Doomfist)

B Plot:

  • Historical Protagonist (Jack)
  • Historical Deuteragonist (Ana)
  • Historical Antagonist (Reyes)

While Ana is sandwiched between two more important men… Tracer and Widow are opposing each other in the present day. If you want your underdeveloped women and conflict which isn’t getting much development, its not Mercy/Moira. Widow/Tracer is set up as a big deal… But we aren’t really given much more besides “they’re on opposite sides of missions.” We’ve never really seen much to make Tracer and Widowmaker personally oppose each other, like your proposed Moira/Mercy conflict, or the very clear Reaper and Soldier conflict. But then I’d say the same goes to Winston too. He doesn’t seem to have any personal enemies, just an antagonist in the form of Talon as a whole, because they threaten the peace of the world.

TLDR Its not that Mercy is being underdeveloped as a woman. Its that the actual main cast members, women or otherwise, are being underdeveloped beyond the core “Overwatch vs Talon” conflict, which seems to be more coherent in the B plot than the A plot.

Characters Looking Dumb

First things first, Captain Marvel existed almost exclusively as a Deus Ex Machina in Endgame. If she had been in the movie longer, the conflict would have ended sooner because she’s more powerful than every other surviving hero combined, and that wouldn’t be very interesting. Its not because she’s a woman that men look stupid, its because she’s the single most powerful character on their team. Its comparable to having Superman join the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans are still formidable… But its fricking Superman.

But on with the Overwatch examples

Immortality Field

I don’t think its an immortality field as much as it is another form of protection field. Some kind of impact supressor or counteraction field. I couldn’t think of a good sciencey sounding word. What I mean to express is, in the short story, Baptiste blows up the pier, but he only gets knocked down. I’d imagine hypothetically, if you were to shoot someone in the field with a bullet in the head, the impact would be reduced and the impact would be more akin to a blank or bb pellet than a bullet. Otherwise, Baptiste would have been in much worse condition than just knocked over. Immortality means immortality, not impervious to damage. A bullet to the head of an immortal doesn’t mean the bullet bounces off, it means it stays lodged in their head, but they’re still alive. So its probably some kind of impact suppression field.

McCree, Moira, Genji, Mercy

As I’ve said a few times already… Genji being weaponized was likely against Mercy’s wishes, and was just another example of Old Overwatch taking her healing and turning it into a weapon. If you think Moira would have let Genji turn out better, its a very common theory (which I agree with) that Moira created the Talon Assassins. They seem a little more unhinged than Genji, but I couldn’t tell you if that’s a side effect of their genetic alteration, or they’re actually just naturally blood thirsty. You can also look at other genetically altered Talon agents like Widowmaker and Reaper, the latter of which was explicitly shown to be modified by Moira. I’d say Genji keeping his sanity left him better off than some of the Talon Agents we’ve seen.

Widow is strong… But brainwashed

Conditioned*. I like to think there is a big difference between the two. Brainwashed implies they are forcibly acting against their own desires, while conditioned means that they were psychologically trained to have different or distorted desires. To use an example, conditioning would be that, you were given a positive reinforcement (like a hit of dopamine or piece of cheese) every time you killed a labrat you were told to kill. Couple that with genetic alteration that numbs your natural senses, and you would be conditioned to enjoy killing what you were told, and unable to feel enjoyment otherwise. Brainwashing however just means you are told “Kill this guy” and then blindly obeying. Widowmaker isn’t blindly obeying. She was just genetically and psychologically altered to enjoy assassinations, and to not feel much else.

This is also why I often try and share my view on her condition whenever people say things like “If Widowmaker is emotionless, why does she get annoyed at Tracer.” She’s not a mindless doll. She’s still mostly independent in her mind, and her emotions do exist. They’re just numb, and she was trained to feel immense satisfaction when ending a life.

Whether or not this conditioning goes against her being a strong woman I’d say is up for debate, but she isn’t a servile brainwashed assassin that does as she’s told exactly as she’s told without a thought of her own.

But to make this looks like Doomfist pulling her strings isn’t quite accurate. As far as we know, he had nothing to do with Widowmaker’s creation. If anything, he may have come up with the plan of using Gerard’s wife against him, but has nothing to do with her orders or her condition. All her missions like Alive and the museum heist were while he was in jail. I would not say Doomfist is manipulating her at all.

Sombra

Searching overall was a mistake. The whole comic feels like it was a mess that made every character involved look dumb, and also screwed up the timeline of events rather badly (Orisa existed before Zarya met Lynx, meaning that while she was searching the world for the Spanish speaking hacker with a spanish name that was reported by Atlas News to have very recently hacked Lumerico in Dorado in countries that don’t speak Spanish or have a city named Dorado, Doomfist had time to break out of jail, go to Monaco, meet Max, go to Venice during Carnivale, kill Vialli, take over Talon, go to Numbani, steal the gauntlet, then give Efi enough time to create Orisa. And that’s just half of the comic.)

Without going in too much detail, everyone acts dumb in Searching. Sombra looks dumb, Volskaya looks dumber, Zarya looks incompetent. Unfortunate that a comic focusing on 3 women and the gender neutral omnic Lynx makes all of them look foolish.

Aside from that comic… Reaper and Widowmaker were shown to catch on that Sombra was doing her own thing in Infiltration, so even in her debut, the seeds of doubt were sown in her two allies. Reaper was also the one to report it to Doomfist that he was watching her. This isn’t a men/women thing. Both Widow and Reaper caught on in Infiltration that Sombra botched the mission, and were wary of trusting her. Doomfist did nothing here either.

I guess in this specific case, its because Sombra’s intervention conveniently lines up perfectly with Doomfist’s goals. Likewise, he doesn’t seem to have any problems with anyone else following their own goals (Max - Money from laundering, Sanjay - Money from post-war development, Reaper - Killing ex-Overwatch, Moira - Research) so long as they don’t directly conflict with his own (Vialli - Money that requires killing people Doomfist wants alive.)

Sombra has not betrayed him yet, so he’ll let her do her own thing. No one else in Talon seems to have his aspiration, I’d say the closest is probably Sanjay, and we don’t know enough about him. So long as they aren’t actively working against his wishes and are also providing him support when he needs it, he seems to be content.

Tracer yes. Soldier… Was more awkward, but it was also the best way they could have shown that he was gay without compromising his character with a modern day relationship. Straight or gay, I think looking at pictures of a relationship from over 30 years ago as a main discussion point is weird. But literally any other way they could have done it would have been worse, either destroying Jack’s character as one who never had time for relationships and was married to his job, or his one track mind for revenge in the present that has no time for relationships. And simply putting in a tweet “Yeah he’s gay” would have just caused even more uproars and would feel forced. Unfortunately, they wrote themselves into a corner of wanting to show that a lone wolf character that has not had a relationship for the past 30 years and likely won’t have one ever again is gay.

Overall… Tracer/Winston are underused in the present, and those two + Widowmaker have underdeveloped reasons to oppose each other besides “we play for the other team”. While Mercy/Moira are sufficiently used for how I perceive their importance as characters to the main plot.

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Corruption + Swiss HQ explosion

In the past, $$$. In the present, Omnic Crisis 2, with each member given their own motivations (See my post above).

Retribution was the start of the slippery slope. In the end, Blackwatch turned against Overwatch and it became Jack vs Reyes. We are missing some steps in the middle, but the gradient is still clear. Legacy/Ana Amari’s apparent death was also probably a major factor, as both were close to her. Before her death, they seemed to be close but still had a difference in opinion towards how to do things (Jack: By the book. Reyes: Whatever it takes to get the job done.) but after her passing are all the explicitly antagonistic actions. They were also both desperate to find her after she went MIA.

Going well, we’ve had 3-4 shorts dedicated to Recall answers. That’s excluding the short Recall, and the Museum Heist.

Not every hero needs to be important. If you try to make all 31 heroes core to the plot, you get a messy plot.

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What’s the forced narrative with Sigma?

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The thing about Talon is that all of these characters don’t actually care about Talon. They’re individuals over organization. Sure, Sombra’s personal motivation seems to have good intents for the world at large (helping Dorado’s poor, dismantling corrupt corporations), but it’s still one massive power trip for her. Every other Talon character is completely selfish. Reaper wants revenge, Moira wants science, Widow wants to mourn and Doomfist wants to change the world’s attitude towards conflict. They freed Sigma, yes, but this was also a selfish motivation, not an altruistic one. You’re forgetting that they did so to make him a living weapon, not because they’re nice people. Manipulation is manipulation, no matter how you slice it. Even if he’s not being treated horribly, he’s still being denied his choice and autonomy. Talon is ultimately doomed to fail because they don’t make them invested in the organization with anything other than payroll and resources.

Overwatch isn’t simply full of yes-men either. Remember, Tracer was the only one who initially responded to and instantly agreed to join the recall Overwatch, on account of her nature and her close friendship with Winston. Reinhardt and Brigitte took a long time discussing it, and eventually took it up on the principle of duty, something that’s been a part of Reinhardt’s characterization since the Battle of Eichenwalde. Genji seems to have answered it, but he too feels mixed, telling his brother to “pick a side”, not forcing him into anything. McCree and Echo know, but the former may be staying clear because of the press Overwatch has been getting recently, which wouldn’t shine too good of a light on his criminal record. The members of Overwatch are making decisions, they do have complexity. But unlike Talon, they can put aside their differences to work towards a common goal.

It is, more or less, natural, how the current story of Overwatch is developing. With the world in an increasingly dire state, people are making choices to influence the world in the way they wish. Talon may have sparks of good among it’s ranks, but at the end of the day, the have no uniting common concern, and are much more ruthless and dubious in their treatment of both agents and civilians.

2 Likes

Great post overall, but for this point… I don’t think McCree cares much about how the world views him. I think its more of the opposite. His criminal record wouldn’t shine too good on Winston’s big Overwatch revival. Especially since a large part of Reunion was McCree freeing Echo specifically so she can go help Overwatch.

They think they want me, but really, they need you.

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LMAOOOOO, LLMMAOOOOO,LMAOAOOOO
I stopped reading from here. I’m so baffled right now. Did black widow’s death mean ANYTHING to you??? Captain marvel is the STRONGEST Avenger, and that means NOTHING??? Marvel goes out of its way to give women credit, and yet people still have cause to COMPLAIN? Sit down and appreciate the fact that women got representation. Why do minorities and women cry about representation and then go scream when people dont get it done right? At least they tried to satisfy you. Its like you’re all just children and you don’t get your favorite flavored cake frosting for your birthday. Stop being a spoiled brat.