kiriko just does not die. she is an issue. she makes every other character obsolete. you ulted? doesnt matter she has suzu. anti? suzu. kiriko is 1hp? tp. chase her down? tp again its already back up. she does crazy damage. just siphons all the fun out of the game.
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You misspelled Ana ahe is the main fun sucker in the game right now
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Yup pretty much and she can out heal any of the damage you put on her teammates so there’s that too
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Are you landing your shots? I seem to be fine literally killing pocketed dps. It’s a hassle, but without a pocket- I am doing just fine killing the pocketed dps. If you aren’t landing shots, you won’t kill. It’s very simple.
The only time you aren’t going to burst through is if ana nades a target and both supports are landing their heals AND your team doesn’t team shot. With kiriko? After suzu? You can burst them down no problem- just land your damn damage lol.
Land your shots, bait her cooldowns. If you haven’t learned that by now- skill issue. You have to do this for every hero- every hero has a get out of jail free card- deal with it. She does crazy damage, but compared to consistent hitscan, you should be outshooting her and out damaging her. If she manages to kill you in a 1v1 duel, that’s another skill issue. She was better in that duel.
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The person I play most requires me to get in close to damage, so if I’m not instantly K.O.'d before I get to them, they can cleanse my damage and then TP away. Every other hero can dish out the same amount of damage as Reaper even while he’s point blank, so it’s always going to be a 2v1.
Even when I’m playing other heroes like Ball/Sigma, there’s not nearly enough damage output to stop her healing. I’ve lasered peoples brains out from point blank with ball and she still managed to out heal it, so I can’t see how that would be an aiming issue.
That and she has infinite ammo that can heal the enemy to full by the time I reload so.
You play reaper? Even more so you should be winning that duel. Reaper is a really good hero to kill her with. You heal 35% of the damage you deal on him, and you cannot be 2 tapped, it takes 3 HEADSHOT kunais to kill you on reaper (120 per kunai).
If you close the gap as a hitscan with your shotguns, you baited her cooldowns or waited for cooldowns to be used, you will WIN that duel most of the time. You also cannot move like a pleb. Stop moving in predictable lines- move erratically and do not be predictable. Sure- the occasional random kunai will dome you, but you won’t die. You have the advantage on reaper for close range. Oh and if you forced a kiriko to use tp and cleanse- you did your job as well. You baited HER cooldowns and now you can capitalize on that. You have WRAITH FORM as well for any “oopsie” you do.
This is the equivalent of trying to fight a mei who has her iceblock still, diving a widow who has a grapple, trying to kill a soldier who has his damn heal station still, etc. Just like with all heroes, you gotta time your engagements. Getting people to use their cooldowns at in opportune times is VERY GOOD and COUNTS as a small victory, so capitalize on it.
Ball and Sigma also have “infinite ammo” matter of fact everyone does. There are delays and reloads that need to happen, and on kiriko- yes it is “fast” but her HPS can be outdamaged with SOME headshots, you could even have 1 headshot and majority body shots and still kill them- as long as you LAND your shots and pressure appropriately. Sigma and Ball can also kill anyone they choose. Sigma moreso than ball- a good ball who can get people very low and capitalize is very hard to find, but it can be done and is usually done in high ELO to outdamage the heals. Sigma has a boulder, you close the gap, you smash em, melee and spam more rocks… you outdamaged heals. Ball has a harder time, you gotta build momentum, slam, generate shields, and land headshots- preferably on a group of enemies who got chip damaged. However, you are tanky af and can sustain a TON of damage. That’s your trade off- and YOU CAN STILL SINGLE OUT an out of position enemy, slam- shoot-and kill them.
She literally cannot do that- I know this as a fact as I play her everyday.
Ofudas heals allies for 13 HP per talisman. She fires up to 10 talismans in a single healing burst, making her max healing output 130 HP every ~1.8 seconds. These have a TRAVEL TIME as well.
Your reload time on ball is 1.6 seconds.
Your reload time on reaper is 1.5 seconds.
You have literally NO RELOAD TIME on sigma.
Meaning, you are objectively wrong that the enemy is full health by the time you reload. Your literal reload time is quicker than it is between ofuda reloads- and a full burst is not enough to hit 200 health within your reload time. Land. YOUR. SHOTS.
The fact you feel the way you do means you aren’t mechanically sound and your game sense is lacking. When I play any of your heros, i secure a kill on pocketed dps and many others do as well. Practice practice practice and get better.
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Those suzu spamming Kirikos…
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Absolutely not. A lot do, but not every hero. There is a difference between corny shenanigans and “get out of jail free card.”
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I decided- for the sake of my climbs- to view them all the same- regardless of efficacy. I bait the “get out of jail free” in whichever form it takes, then I capitalize on it. I agree with you though ok! I phrased it like this cause my patience is very low on these forums right now.
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Ha ha ha… Yeah, I understand. Just being overly pedantic as that is kind of my thang.
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I’d say playing against Kiriko is an act of trying to keep your mobility options available. Many Kiriko’s will not teleport right away. THey will try to out last you in a way.
When I dive them as Winston, I’ll space in such a way where its at max zapping distance. If Kiriko retreats further away. That’s fine. I did my job of forcing Kiriko away from the fight. If she tries to cross me up at my 8m range, I only have to travel <22m to get to her behind me.
She always has to face the direction she wants to teleport towards giving you a clue where to search. If you kept track of where people were before leaping you can often just catch them on the redive. The bigger problem is trying to kill Kiriko with the other support up since you can only focus one at a time.
Forcing Kiriko out of position and on a cooldown makes her easier to kill for the next person. The more pressure you keep on supports to keep trying to stay alive instead of heal or dmg is a bonus.
its easy to say, “just hit your shots” yeah dude good advice except for the fact that shes still played in lower ranks where that just isnt realistic. even in high level play nobody hits every shot. theres a reason that 90% of the pros, especially dps and tank players, will say that support characters win the game. its almost always a support diff. im good at the game, i do hit my shots, even then she just tps away into her team. you will almost never, EVER get a pick on a kiriko for the first pick of the fight. thats insane. i know how to manage cooldowns. i know how to bait them. that doesnt matter if she has two cooldowns to swap back and forth to, infinitely dodging any chance of somebody elimming her. she fundamentally has issues with her kit.
And they mostly healbot in low ranks- which isn’t a well rounded play style. A lot of the healbot kirikos end up out of position, use cooldowns horribly, AND THEN die.
90% haven’t said that, as a matter of fact, if you delve through the majority of their interviews, tweets, messages, etc, the consensus is “this is a TEAM game,” working together as a TEAM wins games.
You yourself should know that that is a win on your part for 1 baiting her important cooldown and 2, hitting your shots. Finally, someone who lands. You should also know that now you can pressure her out of position for a potential kill or literally focus fire someone on her team with YOUR team to get a kill. Is it annoying? yes, but for me at least, it is just as annoying when mei iceblocks, reaper wraiths, tracer recalls, soldier puts a HEAL STATION DOWN and PEAKS FROM COVER, cassidy rolls away and hinders you, ashe coach guns away or even to high ground-fires a dynamite- and domes you, echo flies away, genji deflects and dashes away or into you to kill you, sombra hacks you and kills you OR translocates away, etc. When a kiriko TPs, it is just as annoying as other well timed abilities for me. I view it as a win when I bait it and make them panic, brownie points if i land headshots and killed them.
Supports who die first are bad supports- it’s a general rule to play your life as a support. Ofc she will rarely be the 1st death, along with any other support. The dps usually end up dying first OR the tank feeds.
She does not have an infinite chance to dodge your damage or chances to elim. Outside of TP, the cleanse lasts for 0.85 seconds. If she Tpd and is cycling a cleanse in- she has no where to go and thats a secured kill, albeit took slightly longer. If she TPd to her team, chances are SHE WASN’T HEALING THE FOCUSED TARGET, and most kirikos THROW the cleanse on them- meaning SHE NOW BURNED 2 COOLDOWNS. That is not infinite- and yes she is rather slippery, but it is not impossible to kill her. I find when I die- the dps knew how to engage, when to engage, and had the mechanics to secure the bag. I also get outskilled in the duel.
A lot of heroes do, a lot do… not just her. You can find something corny to complain about in almost every single kit in this game. That’s overwatch for you and to that extent this forum. Every hero will get their day here, right now it is supports cause it’s “cool” to do that right now.
Yes, it is, cause when you train your mechanics and hit your shots- things die. I promise. It takes time, but being consistently deadly pays off. No one can outheal your damage unless they work as a team- and so YOU WORK WITH YOUR TEAM to the best you can to counter it.
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I used to be way more pragmatic and patient, but it is very hard right now, especially being a dps and support main.
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Your math is flawed because you’re assuming the enemy is starting from zero health. If that were the case they’d already be dead.
More realistically they’re at 50 to 100 health when Kiri starts healing them, in which case Sassay’s claim is accurate. When approaching thought experiments or calculations, I recommend always asking yourself if you’re looking at the scenario or numbers in a way that’s been tailored to reinforce your own bias.
Also, no Ball or Sigma at any level of play - right up through OWL - is reliably killing through a Kiriko pocket with their primary. I agree that Reaper can do it however.
2 kunai and a melee since the remaining health is 10 hp (not really something you can do much with). Self-healing at 35% means I’m only healing 70 hp of her 200 hp… and that’s after I kill all her.
So in total it takes about 3 kunai from her to kill me and for me to kill her I have to be within 5m of range do to any effective damage (which is nearly impossible cause this dogwater character makes about as much noise as a semi-truck just by walking).
I also find it weird that quite a few people can do the level of damage Reaper can from any range, but Reaper has no clear advantage at point blank. Why can hanzo instantly K.O. me from point blank, yet still kill me from range while I cannot do even remotely the same thing as him? I should be doing enough damage at close range to two tap him in the body if my gameplay advantage really is getting in close, otherwise there’s no reward for the risk of not having long range.
So in essence, I need to play perfectly and she has to play horrendously? Because as previously stated, for me to get in that close without being seen would require a miracle.
I’m not just saying that to exaggerate as I have 400+ hours (nearly 500, woo!), and have perfected my approach to closing the gap in the most unconventional ways that I have yet to see another Reaper player replicate. You have to think irrationally to some extent because it’s harder for the enemies to predict you coming. I usually resort to using the standard approach that other’s use if my own approach isn’t working and 9/10 that instantly fails because its predictable.
Even if I burn their cooldowns, then what? I don’t have the speed to catch up to them and it burns so much more of my time to go in without using abilities, that my team is left to fight a 4v5 for even longer. It takes about 13 seconds to flank just by walking and to approach silently, I have to crouch, further exaggerating the time away from my team. Once I get there (if my team isn’t already dead), all I’ve managed to save is one TP that’s exceptionally inefficient for flanking or chasing with its super long animation time.
They will return to the fight faster than I can because my cooldowns are much longer and stomp my team before I can get back. There is no universe where Kiriko doesn’t have the clear advantage.
When I say “Infinite ammo” I’m referring to her fast reload time which is nigh instantaneous. Sigma, I agree has a fast reload time (non-existent) as well, but ball has a 1.6 second reload time that is reset any time he enters or exits ball form (ball form requires 2 seconds to reload). If I don’t kill them with my first 80 bullets (5 per bullet/25 bullets per second), then I’m already out of time. Kiriko just barely out paces the amount of damage I do and for me to hit every shot I have to have laser perfect aim. By the time I’m ready to shoot again, I’m already being forced out by either them, their team, or my team needing backup.
Even if I find Kiri out of position, she can TP away or cleanse and walk back to spawn since its close enough to do so if she’s not in TP range of her team. Same works with her TPing to her teammates who are out of position to 2v1 me, which some times I can win if I get lucky, but most of the time am being out healed.
Sigma on the other hand requires me to abandon my team to push the enemy supports out and depending on the tank, I am not always allowed to do that (I.e. Orisa, JQ, Zarya, Winton). Kiri very easily dodges boulder with her tp and can cover anyone stunned by it with suzu, instantly negating my damage and putting me on cooldown. Sure she may not be able to kill me by herself, but she certainly wont be dying to me unless she’s way out of position or I’m way out of position.
For Ball, 25 perfectly landed body shots equates to 125 damage, this is within 1 second and any bullets fired after the first to increase in spread. 400 total for landing every body shot (800 for max with headshots). She can out heal body shots unquestionably. For how much she out heals headshots its roughly 80 health remaining on a 200 hp target after the first second of perfectly aimed headshots.
Meaning it is possible to kill a single enemy if I have 100% accuracy for 2 seconds of the roughly 4 seconds of fire that 80 bullets affords me. That’s if she is purely healing and not using her cleanse to stop me from killing them (Cleanse stops me from damaging them for 0.85 seconds and heals them for 40 hp roughly removing another second of damage within my mag). In the 1.6 seconds it takes me to reload she can heal 26 damage?
This would all occur without me receiving any healing and depending on who she’s healing could be devastating to my HP. 1 enemy tank for 1 support/dps with 200 hp doesn’t seem like a fair trade to me.
I’m not going to do sigma because this is quite long already, so bear with me.
Reaper does a total of 108 damage per shot, without headshot crit (5.4 per pellet x 20 pellets). His falloff starts at 10 meters dropping to a meager 1 damage per pellet at 20m. Safe to say you’re not hitting every pellet unless your point blank or 5 meters away (certainly not all headshot pellets unless your on top of the other character, literally). He has a fire rate recovery of about half a second or 0.496 to be exact.
216 per second for perfect body shots (all pellets) and 432 for perfect headshots are his maxed stats meaning literally point blank. I’d say you’re missing 5-6 pellets at 5 meters from his spread and that number drastically increases anywhere past 10 to where you aren’t doing any damage.
If I engage her at a realistic (not really realistic, but beneficially realistic for an expert Reaper player against a decent kiri) 5m range I’ll be doing 191 damage per second(2 shots). Roughly 61 damage per second after she’s healed for 130. It would take me roughly 3.3 seconds of continuously doing 191 damage to kill a 200 hp target with only body shots. I would reduced that number down to maybe 2.8 seconds including a few crit pellets since you aim at neck level to min max the damage.
It would take me 6 shots to kill someone being healed by Kiri where as it would take kiri 3 headshots to kill me (112.5 per crit kunai). This includes the healing I would be receiving from Reaper’s passive 70 hp from 200 hp enemy. Kiri’s fire rate being on par with reapers (1 shot per 0.5 seconds) is objectively stronger than Reaper with the added benefit of range.
All of this without factoring for her TP and cleanse. Sure you can kill 1 enemy DPS/Support being healed by kiri with Ball and maybe sigma, but you would also be trading 600 health (a generous guess seeing as I’m immediately required to use shields and they get burned instantly before the fight is done) from a single tank if not more depending on the person being healed.
You are not going to be winning a fight against someone being healed by Kiriko as Reaper, however.
I have entirely expanded my social limit for today and my fingers are exhausted… and most likely no one will read this far…
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And you’re telling me that if I fire bullets into them as theyre healed they’ll go back to full health? What’s he doing? Twiddling his thumbs as the ofudas FLY their way to the enemy? Ofudas aren’t hitscan lol. I know for a fact when the enemy kiriko starts healing my target, i relax my hands and boom- I get headshots off with some bodies to get a kill. Does it take longer? yes, but no way in hell am i losing that fight. IF THEY"RE DOUBLE POCKETED AND THE TEAM PLAYS AROUND THEM THEN BY ALL MEANS THE GUY IS RIGHT here- outside of that, I see no issue killing pocketed targets. It is a challenge yes, but not impossible and it is a skill needed to climb.
Everyone, yourself included, should ask that. Not just me. You’re assuming no other damage is being dished out in this scenario- and nothing else is happening except whichever hero he is using vs a singular pocketed target with kiriko ONLY healing that target and ONLY focused on that target. Which would insinuate a 1v2, and yes - that should be challenging. WORKING AS A TEAM= how you win, secure kills, and secure the bag.
I broke down the numbers to prove a point- ofudas have travel time, take TIME to heal, and if you are consistently landing 50- 60% of your shots- which you should be- you will get the kill. ESPECIALLY IF you aim at their head. You can literally watch pros do it in OWL, and they work with their team as well for brownie points.
Not just their primary, I literally listed what I see pros and one tricks do to secure kills on pocketed squishies. They use their combos and kits to get it or help get it. I literally saw people on sigma in OWL effing OWN circuit royal while their respective widows did their thing. Thats just ONE example of many. We don’t see ball used often in OWL, we do however see ball used in ladder- and in ladder- you often find among balls that they love to disrupt and get kills with people out of position. If the team rarely is out of position- THEY WORK WITH THEIR TEAM to get it. Without their team it is trickier, but I literally watch them get it on streams or replays and in the reddit/discords for their mains.
thank you for the common ground here.
I am assuming the enemy started with any random amount of health btw in my scenario- i didn’t state that- but thats the stipulation running through my head as I wrote it. All I know is is that wrecking ball has Damage per second: 125 while firing, 83.33 overall w/reload, and before he fires in the first engagement- he normally gets a slam in which ranges anywhere between 20-100. Most of the time it hits the higher ranges of that. That alone disrupts the flow and causes some ofudas to miss. I see good balls disrupt and kill pocketed targets. Those bullets are hitscan, and don’t need travel time. His burst from slam to targeting is enough to offset those heals. He probably won’t win the first engagement, but he is now prepared to engage again and repeat the cycle to get the kill on the now lack of cooldown enemies. You are right in so much they aren’t reliably doing it- there hasn’t been enough instances of it because the meta favors other things. Kiriko isn’t even in that mostly, it was Ana and Brig for the longest time accompanied by winston. Recently it has been baptiste and lucio. I rarely see her now. I see more baps, anas, illari, and lucio in the recent streams. Before tho, when she was pre nerf, and the healbot style was the way? YES I agree that the reliable kills weren’t there- but teamshots solved that. She is NERFED from that state and that style is strongly discouraged. Being well rounded where we heal and damage and use utility at the right times is the way to climb now - some games we can get away with the healbot.
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No, in that pocket, especially on reaper- both of you playing perfectly means YOU WIN. Assuming the pocket also means she didn’t port since it is a 1v1. If she ports in game, she admitted defeat and you scared her lol.
Very nice! Keep going, I need more good reapers out there who are passionate about their fun hero.
This is when you do rely on your team. I am getting you to see you did your part here. Thats what YOU can do to impact that part of the fight. Yes, it will take your cooldowns- but my god you made her use important stuff! You made your team’s life slightly easier- while she finds her footing, you get to take a small breather and regroup.
A kiriko using TP to dodge a boulder is a bad kiriko, straffing is enough to dodge a boulder. That being said, any hero can straffe and dodge the boulder. A sigma landing crazy boulders is rare.
a cooldown for a cooldown. That’s a win. Now we move to the next stage of the team fight. These are battles of attrition.
It will negate it, but now you opened up more opportunities for MORE damage to be done and they don’t have that cheesy card to use.
While you got a point here, on sigma- they use suzu, they start backing up, the primary fire and little aoe it has is enough to offset much of what they do- it’s up to your team now to capitalize on it. There are many a times I tank- get literally everyone low, and NO ONE SHOOTS so the heals have time to heal. It hurts. It truly hurts and demoralizes- and extra hurts 100000000 when I manage to get a kill that gets rezzed ahhaa.
She has to literally be up her targets hitbox for that damage to be instantly outhealed. Battle of attrition with lots of decisions to be made in that window.
Yes, but you are still doing damage. Damage that can be seen by your team, damage that takes her attention away from other enemies. You gotta work for the kill, but you will get it. Just gotta time it. You are now assuming the kiriko you verse is picture perfect and every ofuda lands precisely on time/ she only looks at the dive target. In this case that is peeling- ofc it’ll be hard right? You are also in a 1v2- so you are at a disadvantage from the get go- if you should decide to take this- make sure your team can see it. This is the exact concept we try to get people to see- peeling is crazy effective, even if 2 dd player peel for each other, even without those heals, it’ll be damn hard to kill people who peel for each other.
With one downside, it is a projectile that has a travel time and can be dodged easily. You have hitscan pellets. Very good pointing out the numbers here. Yes- yes, she def can luck out and land all 3, but normally you will make them panic so much they’d land 1 or none at all. In higher elo, they’d land 2 and a body, but by then are you gonna press that? No. Even the best kirikos rarely land all 3 on the reaper- we saw in OWL that fielder didn’t kill the reaper much on the SF shock. (1 example). Does it suck to retreat tho? Yes.
I will! i see a lot of people complaining against supports right now- but as a dps and support player who has multiple accounts in M and GM for both roles- I myself am irritated- so sorry if my initial message came off horribly. I am sorry ahaha.
I see the struggle you have, but i also know the shortcomings both ends have. So seeing people say this hero is ridiculously OP etc does me a disservice along with many others. The only hero i can see valid complaints against are Illari and Bap right now- they’re dps disguised as supports. When I play kiriko and a good reaper dives me- they will initially lose, but they legit come back and win. My cooldowns are normally used via saving a teammate or i used it to save myself (god forbid). This is in M-GM, i def know they land their headshots and i completely agree that you gotta be irrational to be efficient. When I happen to outskill them, it is usually cause I am def on some form of crack for my kunais to land the way they do that day. However, in some or most of my games in a given day- depending on the day, I will get people who never use cover or can’t seem to kill- my life as kiriko is hell in those games and OFTEN in those games I wish i was a dd who just rolled the enemy team over. (I play ashe, s76, cassidy, reaper, tracer, widow, and genji… while bastion was good, yes i brought him out ONLY and ONLY IF the enemy first brought him out). My perspective on killing things is very different from yours via my hero pool.
Seriously I just started using Kiriko a bit and my god… you can get away with a lot. The teleporting in particular gives her Sombra survivability. If you can land your headshots it’s game over lol