That, and going against him feels okay.
He either defends, or he attacks. He doesn’t do both. That’s why people dislike fighting against Orisa/Sigma.
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Ok mccree abuser. Keep exploiting a broken hero
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I feel like people are really missing the point of why McCree is strong on ladder and not in OWL. McCree is strong in duels and against unorganised teams, which is what you get on ladder. He’s not played in OWL because OWL teams have the teamplay to play around him. McCree’s just can’t get away with the things he gets away with on ladder. It’s the opposite of Sombra, where there isn’t enough teamplay to get value out of her on Ladder but she dominates consistently in OWL (even during the zero DPS GOATS era).
Winston/D.Va Rush are meta in OWL. McCree can’t contend with the speed it’s played at, especially with a team that plays at the pace of Dallas Fuel. But that kind of pace doesn’t exist outside of OWL. Ladder, even top 500, is played at a snails pace compared to the Fuel.
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I said no need because pickrates with hero bans are meaningless to balance discussions.
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Believe me, having mcmeme being able to throw his flash bang out of grasp range and still hitting me with it is annoying as… Well you get the idea.
Yeah, OWL isn’t simply “the top gamers” they’re effectively playing on a custom server with special rules.
Surprise surprise, with different rules you have a different game with different outcomes.
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I don’t think he was saying McCree isn’t being played at all…we’ve come to the conclusion that he is, just not being picked nearly as frequently with Rein/Tracer/Sombra/Zen banned. 22% pickrate isn’t a lot compared to 80% Echo and nearly 40% Reaper. It’s not even close. McCree is in 1/5 games, while Echo is in 4/5 and Reaper 2/5. To say McCree is picked “a lot” with a 22% pickrate would be a huge exaggeration
You must have missed my comments from earlier.
45 dmg FtH changes too many breakpoints. The main one I can think of is against Doomfist. All Doomfist has to do is slam/uppercut McCree and McCree loses every time because 270fth +25 damage flashbang is only 295 damage, Doomfist will have 310hp. And that’s on the conservative side assuming Doomfist only hit McCree with his 2 abilities, and didn’t get any multihits or use rocket punch (which he definitely would, so he’d more than likely have 340hp or more in the fight)
I’m hoping you can explain this. I’ve seen several people say this without any explanation as to how. I don’t see how McCree is breaking barriers faster than Junkrat in any realistic scenario… how did you come to this conclusion?
It may happen, but I kinda doubt it seeing Echo with an 80% pickrate and Reaper with a 40%
That doesn’t sound like a balance problem to me. It sounds like ladder can play pretty much whatever hero they want if they’re able to work with their team, which is how Overwatch is supposed to be played, with teamwork.
Right. He has a much lower skill floor, but other tanks are superior in plenty of scenarios, if you’re good with those tanks. Unfortunately, if players keep themselves instalocking Rein most games, they’re not going to improve on other tanks.
You’re missing the point. The entire point of that other thread was to point out that McCree is dependent on some combination of Rein/Tracer/Sombra/Zen being played in order for him to be a top DPS, which tells me that he can’t be all that overpowered if removing those heroes suddenly makes him not overpowered. That means he’s a good counter pick against those heroes/goes well with them. Meaning he’s dependent on the meta favoring him. Which right now it does on ladder. Once people start playing other heroes, McCree’s pickrate will drop (which I know is obvious, but it seems like you don’t foresee that happening without him being nerfed again)
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Skill floor matters little, when your team simply can’t work with you.
It just highlights, why Overwatch is a mess - developers continue to balance for how game should be played instead of how it actually is played. It’s a problem of excessive demands from players, that are not OWL team that trains together.
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That’s not what overpowered means at all. Heroes aren’t balanced in a vacuum.
If we gave Pharah and enormous buff but banned Mercy she wouldn’t be the the most picked dps in the game. She’d still be overpowered though. You cant judge balance once you start removing hero synergies and team comps.
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What do you mean by this? I often have teams willing to work together
The game should not be balanced based on
You don’t know this. An enormous buff to Pharah would probably make Pharah the most picked DPS with Hitscans close behind to shoot her down
Bottom line is, McCree is dependent on the meta. Just a couple heroes not being played totally alters how popular he is. That’s what being meta dependent is. Once the meta changes away from Rein on ladder McCree will become far less popular, just like he’s much less popular in OWL right now without Rein/Tracer/Sombra/Zen
No but you can determine that a hero is meta dependent when their pickrate drastically changes when other heroes aren’t being played. Meta dependent is healthy. Isn’t that the goal, to make all heroes viable in metas that favor them?
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I don’t think comparing OWL to Ladder makes sense in terms of hero engagement and power levels. The reality is that OWL is playing a different game with a different meta than we are on ladder. Comparing the two doesn’t make much sense to me.
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They’re comparable because they have the same balance (once they’re not a patch behind). OWL shows that with practice and coordination (not necessarily to the same degree for either) heroes that ladder may think are weak are actually quite good
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McCree wasn’t being played much this tournament because he doesn’t work well in a rush meta. He’s far too diveable. He’d get destroyed by multiple D.Va bombs and speed-boosted coalescences everywhere. All the rush meta heroes have mobility and survivability abilities/ults.
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The point was that if Pharah is given a large enough buff to make her overpowered without hero bans then it’s obvious that she’d underperform once Mercy is banned. Despite still being overpowered. You cant determine anything about balance once you start banning heroes because everything is based on synergies.
The only hero who has ever been completely immune from meta was post rework Mercy. She was the only true must pick to ever exist. Always being meta isn’t a requirement to be overpowered. Widow constantly dropped in and out of the meta yet was overpowered and eventually repeatedly nerfed.
You’re just going through mental gymnastics to justify a hero dominating for almost 8 months, through wildly different metas even though many of the metas shouldnt fit him. He has zero business performing better than Doom or Reaper in rush, yet he does. He has zero business performing better than Genji in dive, yet he does. Frankly he has zero business being picked as much as he is with those hero bans in place.
He’s overpowered and everybody knows it.
I like how you are bringing up alot of things not said because you can’t argue against the points i made 
But as Samuel L Jackson once said:
"Allow me to retort"
What’s rank got to do with anything? Competitive is a joke.
Or are you seriously going to attempt to defend the matchmaker, smurfing, trolling, random select teammates/enemies, leavers, and meme developer balancing makes for consistent “competitive” matches?
Also that’s not even my rank but that’s an even longer funnier story that can teach any player the easiest loophole to manipulate the system.
But that’s neither here nor there. If I was top 500 or bronze doesn’t suddenly change that Symmetra is garbage.
No, wait, we have to check the color iconog that player to verify the claim. That’s the only way to determine if that hero countered by double digit amount of heroes can have a valid claim to being low tier.
Yeah I play on console, cause unlike you I could tell at launch this is a casual shooter party game and blizzard isn’t known for mods or other awesomeness bells n whistles that come with PC shooters.
I have a PC, a laptop, multiple consoles, and I even play Mortal Kombat on my phone. I’m high rank in MK mobile maybe by your logic I should go advise Sonic Fox how to play MK 11
All you are showing is you ain’t got facts.
Delete McCree from the game.
We can go back to 2020 when you saw no hair or hide from him.
Ok Mr Better Rank and Better Player cause you chose to buy a PC and play a team game that ranks and scores on individual performance, explain what makes 2020 Overwatch a better game now than 2021now that McCree is trash to not wreck your game?
What’s the difference? Junkrat and Symmetra now gods? Oh look they still underplayed in 2020 even though Sym’s dmg needed a nerf for some reason.
I know. Until the powers of plat are bestowed on me (even though I actually have been that rank)
my brain can’t possibly figure out that for 5 years nerfing a complained about hero totally balanced the game.
Also nobody said McCree nor even Hanzo should be tank barrier busters. Why are you bringing up imaginary arguments…
Oh wait, this must me that better player rank tech not a sorry attempt of a strawmen point to distract that you can’t address my gold rank McCree point of why he wasn’t used in Grand Finals when money is on the line?
“So hold on a minute Bwain, by that logic wouldn’t it mean the Owl players that didn’t use McCree don’t have to listen to Yourself and can be as dismissively ride with an inflated since of ego entitlement because they are a higher rank than him to play at the highest level, NAAAAARF!”
“Shut up Pinky, give that serious business high rank complainer the respect that he hasn’t earned from trying so hard in a meme mode of Competitive that even Owl players don’t use to get better at the game”
Whoa guys back to Animaniacs for you, this dated reference is showing my age.
But I digress.
Yeah I know I’m a low gold scrub console peasant but maybe it’s just my understanding of the game better than you (it could be possible), but McCree has little to do why Junkrat ain’t in the game.
It’s more likely that after the nerf to his primary fire size to end Spam meta made him irrelevant.
Also hitscan buffs made him irrelevant, which McCree’s not the only hitscan in the game.
Junk’s ult is mediocre and harder to get value the higher you go up,whoa wait how could I know something like that, I’m just a ghetto gold player from the hood.
If you only had one shot guitar strums to go up in rank, would you take?
His palms are sweaty, internet connection weak, mouse is heavy,
There’s a match connection found, Athena’s match begins voice is ready!
Rrrrhhhhr white takes the needle off the record
This joke retorts long enough no need beat a parody into the ground though I SO wanted to do an immature gag of Lose Yourself to your ID name Yourself.
But you know attacking someone based on their fake name is almost as lame as attacking someone over there imaginary meaningless score number like rank😁
It’s cool though. Maybe you want to de-rank and play on console.
Cause I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but a slow moving mid range large hitbox Cowboy with a bad Ult ain’t one.
It doesn’t matter what the league is playing, I’m sure it’s already been said.
The league is playing something wildly different to Ladder, co-ordinated teams.
When I go into a comp game, I do not know my teammates. This means we don’t know what the others play.
Likelihood is we don’t have the components to make a good Dive, Brawl or Bunker comp. Or any comp at all. So Rein Zarya with their easy to access baseline value comes in. Rein Zarya works with almost any comp and almost anyone on ladder understands it.
How can I possibly play Orisa when she requires Sigma or Hog, someone who knows how to play them, and then for all 4 DPS and Supports to be able to play characters that contribute to the spam. So not only do we need 5 co-operating teammates, those teammates need to know how to play the hero that works with the comp.
But then let’s look at GM. Everybody there is mostly good. Yet it’s still 5 randoms. Winston D.Va and Winston Zarya or simply just harder to execute than Rein Zarya still. Just because something works well if you practice every day for hours with the same 5 people doesn’t mean you can hop in game and win with 5 randoms.
So what is Meta for Overwatch is never “meta” for everyone else. Because everyone else has to have the Most Effective Tactics Available (META) based upon what is thrust upon them. That might be a Sym on trick, It might be someone who specialises in Genji and SOmbra. Perhaps an Ana main? Or an unco-operative teammate. The META for us is never what is META for OWL overwatch because the most effective tactics available are based on what is AVAILABLE.
Now back to McCree. He is much more tolerable after the nerfs I find but that doesn’t mean a character like him can’t THRIVE in this environment. With Co-ordination he can be shut down., D.Va is incredibly efficient at doing so. But in an unco-ordinated environment where engagements are messy, D.Va suddenly isn’t as good vs McCree because her follow-up is not guranteed.
We saw the same with Super Roadhog. HE was decent on ladder before the buffs because we aren’t that co-ordinated. But OWL he sucked (and still does) because he thrives on that unco-ordination to get picks. But Super hog was so good the pros HAD to use him.
Roadhog still had a good pickrate throughout Rein Zarya because his pick potential on ladder is simply just that good in THAT environment. It’s the same with McCree.
I’m sure Sym would look OP if everybody had to funnel into a small choke on ladder but in OWL they had Workshop Expanse to run around on. It’s a vastly different environment and your tactics available are never truly what the full game can offer.
Why is that? Are you playing Arcade/Quickplay? In competitive you should be able to utilize different team comps. That’s what I mostly play, and if people are able to they will play different things
Just for reference, when I play tank and my teammate picks Zarya, I usually go Winston. If they pick Winston I can go Zarya or Dva. If they pick Rein I can go Dva or Zarya. If they go Sigma I can go Hog, Ball, Orisa, Zarya. My games have quite a lot of tank variety.
You don’t have to get very high on ladder for people to understand a tank strategy besides Rein/Zar, but you’re right that it has an easy to access baseline value. It really just comes down to laziness.
You don’t necessarily need a full comp built around you if you want to play Orisa, but that is definitely optimal. If you’re solo queueing you won’t always be able to play the hero you want if your team isn’t capable of playing around it. That’s just the way it is, and that goes for every hero.
I agree that Rein/Zar has an easier to access baseline value and that Dive and double bubble takes more coordination. It just comes down to what ladder feels like doing. Dive has been meta in the past. It could be again, if ladder wanted it to be. But that would take more effort and coordination.
What is meta in Overwatch is what the pros use. They are the best in the world, the most coordinated teams, and play every hero to their fullest potential better than anyone else. What ladder plays depends on region & preference. I’m pretty sure North American ladder is using Rein/Zar most, although not by much. While Asian ladder is Winston/Zar or Winston/Dva. It’s not like Asian ladder and North American ladder are balanced differently. There’s just a different level of communication, effort given, & hero preference that changes what is played the most
This is true, but what I’m saying is that Rein/Zar aren’t the most played tanks on NA ladder because the majority of tank players are Rein/Zar players. They aren’t. Just a year ago they were playing Sigma/Orisa constantly. Before that it was Goats. Before that it was Dive. It’s not like suddenly the only tank players left are Rein/Zar players, that’s just what’s popular right now
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YA DONT SAY almost like all this community does is whine and whine and whine and whine and whine about heroes who are picked regardless of if they’re actually that good or not. Mccree is by far the most balanced “op” hero weve ever had,much better than echo hanzo june genji ect.
This is just one of the reasons this game has become less fun over time, things are unnecessarily changed because the only thing this community knows how to do is complain and whine about every single hero that’s played, the minute a hero is frequently picked “FOR GODS SAKE NERF _____” I’m so over it at this point and itll never stop, people are still whining about mccree even now.
I think the reality is you just suck and need to learn to play against him. It’s not hard.
No character will ever be as weak as mercy is. When a team mate picks mercy for support you know they are throwing the match.
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I know I’ll catch a lot of flak for saying this, but the hero ban system was the best thing to ever happen to Overwatch. Too bad too many people like the idea of playing only 1 or 2 heroes for their entire career
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