Ah okay. So, we are talking about this in relation to those kits for say “meta” effectiveness. Now, the point here is that has little or nothing to do with the effectiveness of the character across tiers from bronze through Diamond which makes up about 85% of the game. That’s the issue. Sorry but I agree with the pros, coaches and notable commentators on the game that its one of the most troubled designs in the game.
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She hasn’t though, she just didn’t have the utility to justify picking her over healers that did. And now that the meta actually does favor her, yes, she was too strong.
There seems to be a perception, especially with supports, where if they aren’t meta they’re trash tire. But did Moira receive any buffs that turned her into a monster overnight (genuinely curious)? Or did she have a solid kit that finally got picked up by the community at large?
but she’s never actually been that good or prominent of a character, even in the highest ranks, she was swapped out with zen, i believe in goats
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i think it’s more of the fact double shield meta was a perfect storm for her to thrive in
Before 2-2-2, if you played her you were “throwing.” “Moira switch to “Any other support” Or I will report you for throwing”
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OTOH, there is the question of balance. Yes, its about team play, but its still a competitive game where how easy a kit is to get value should be a concern as well. No one is forgetting this, not even “the pros” though some do, equally many forget this is a competitive game, not some MMO.
Let’s make it simple: there are three skills basically, mechanical aim, game-sense and positioning. A perfectly balanced kit should be equal in all three to start. Now, lets say we have a kit that requires very little if any mechanical skill; it should in turn require equally higher game sense and positioning, perhaps equal or one or the other is higher and one lesser. That is balance.
Winston takes very little mechanical skill but requires the balance of his kit to require good game sense and positioning. Brig 1.0 was bad because she required frankly very little of any of the three; Brig 2.0 still requires low mechanical skill but in turn requires significant game sense and superior positioning skill so it was a pretty good rework. Moira OTOH, the first anti-dive design, requires very little mechanical skill, and fairly low game sense and positioning until very high tiers, that is a problematic design as it is imbalanced for most of the tiers.
Yes, OW is different in that it allows for non-mechanically skilled players to compete, but in order to do so they should be required to make up the difference with some higher degree of game sense and/or positioning, and this is not always the case. And FWIW, I also am against rewarding mechanical skill too much to maintain this balance, so don’t assume I am in the “mechanical skill trumps all” category. I Support main Bap and Brig, so I truly get the differences.
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I mean what’s the point of having dps heroes when tanks and supports can do as much damage with better ultimates / utility and sustain, there’s a reason Reaper, Mei and Doom are meta right now they’re the closest thing to tanks.
People don’t complain about them having good dps, they complain about them having good dps AND better sustain.
Look at Zen nobody complains about him being able to deal as much damage as a dps because he has drawbacks he doesn’t have fade orb, immortality field etc.
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I noticed that 5 months ago when Ana was meta and they were saying that she was a no skill/forgiving character that needed nerfs.
That’s when I realised the support witchhunt on these forums.
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In fact many people do complain about the damage output of tanks. The problem Blizz has is how do you make tanks feel like they are more than damage sponges walking in front over everyone else who is having fun? I personally think they are not inventive enough with their mechanics though lately with Sigma and WB they are doing better at designs that are fun but are un-linked from direct damage levels.
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… Ana is no skill? Well. That is a strange mindset.
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Thank you. It is really obvious, but it needs to be said. You hit the nail on the head.
this is another lie.
moira is bcz she was low skill.
and bap bcz he’s op now.
youre the one vectimising support class and ask for em to be op.
now you can just come out and say you like op heroes, thats fine, just dont use the victim card cuz we can all see through it
I hate it when people try and down play arguments like that.
What conters flankers, counters all the dps. A Moria can destroy Solider in a fight. Its nothing to do with flankers. Its the dps feeling completely useless because tanks and supports not only do their job, but also do the job of the dps better as well.
Imagine if we gave Mccree the ability to rez. To think Mercy mains would be happy with that?
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If the soldier has aim like a rock, Good soldiers can easily outdamage Moiras, even kill her.
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Can you imagine if bastion bullets worked like anas? Oh, the humanity.
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I do not know, the forums are wishy washy, “OP” can mean a lot of different things. People still contend McCree is OP. Or that he will finally be meta THIS TIME FOR SURE. I think it is safe to say that he does not believe Baptiste is OP and the forums declaring it would hardly convince a reasonable person.
Of course it wasn’t - the skill of the person attacking you doenst matter, your ability to react, escape and beat them does.
Its far easier to blame the other player for being OP than it is to learn how to react and win.
OP status is reserved to things that actually break the game, like 1 shots.
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I’ll say one thing on Zen; people accept Zen because as you say he has low heals but more importantly came with the game. OTOH, if you introduced Zen today with his damage levels, his ability to become invulnerable and simultaneously heal others, and also put a de-buff of -30% on a player (imagine his original 50%)… people would howl.
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Wanting a hero nerfed for doing too much damage is not “hatred”
In case you haven’t noticed, people want dps hero’s damage nerfed too.
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Make the act of tanking fun and not press a button to shield your teammates.
As much as people hated D.Va’s matrix it might be one of the most interactive and skillful tanking ability, involving mechanics and reaction time to protect and save teammates.
They shot themselves in the foot when they decided to make tanks revolve around barriers.
And whatever you do about it, tanking will always not be popular.
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