Maybe I missed it but in the entire post it felt like the main reason why 5v5 gets complained about was kinda just… danced around?
Counterswapping is too effective against tanks, and solo tank feels miserable to play.
Where was this in the post if I did miss it because I would like to read their view on this. Nearly 2 years of 5v5 and we’re still waiting for any solution to be offered up where 5v5 works and solo tanking doesn’t feel god awful. Because they’ve tried everything and nothing has worked.
Giga buffing tanks did nothing to solve the matter, while only making the other roles more miserable along with tanks now.
Counterswapping was and still forever be the core element of Overwatch. It has been since Overwatch 1 and even for Overwatch 2.
A removal of a Tank just made it where more pressure is on the Tank. With 6v6; all the co-exsisting problem (if balance not made) will still remain.
I personally do not think counter-swapping is THEE PROBLEM, but more so a lack of variety of hero choices for Tanks and maybe a lack of acknowledgment from the whole team and not just for the Tank.
If they do end up trying or moving forward with 6v6, then all the changes that were made from Overwatch 1 to Overwatch 2 should be reverted, and start fresh with balance changes.
You are completely right about the counter picking thing.
Roadhog was a BS pick in all of OW1. He was a terrible tank and consistently ranked as one of the worst in the game. It didn’t really matter diddly squat what tank you ran him with, he was generally always bad.
The core problem was his entire design that gave him a huge gapping flaw. It was his breather was always interrupted by anything Ana did or anything a hard CC did to his breather. Going from healing and dmg reduction all the way to squat for 8seconds.
He was insanely easy to counterpick, but Blizzard never fixed his core weakness UNTIL OW2 with breather change. Couterpicking is a character design flaw, not a 1 tank or 2 tank issue.
He had his synergy ( Old Orisa Hog meta) was fun, but I believe it was just again the lack of the devs to recognize this problem and rework him to function more so as a tank, rather than a 600hp DPS.
EXACTLY. I felt like if the devs would have done what they did with OW2, but with 6v6 still in the mindset, then things would have been different. Also, remove role-lock…
I personally viewed counter swapping just a bit exaggerated honestly. I always see a small group of streamer die once and they immediately swap no matter the role instead of making adjustments (unless they’re a one trick like Cyx or Fitzy).
I don’t know if a tank should always be able to be played against any other tank, like always viable and on any map. I feel like there has to be some countering, some skills that outplay other skills in certain situations (also player skill difference matters).
I don’t even know if most players actually rotate through a conga line of tanks until the game is over. I don’t know what the order of tanks are that counters what, I doubt there is a comprehensive agreed upon list to it. I think most tank players mainly pick 2-3 at most if desperate until they gain some other advantage such as: they got ults in time that changed the state of the match, or team mates did something, or reached an objective point etc.
And I’m not sure if doing that is necessarily a bad thing for a game like OW where we should change heroes from time to time and in certain points of maps where the environment requires different tactics or if out played by other players. Basically, I’m not sure if it matters that much or if it really is an issue they had to address, or if it’ll be an issue in the future with say 6v6 either.
dont forget tho that the game was in a lul for a while with no content updates. even balance changes were minimal right? or not much… its like they abandoned the game since they knew they would release 5v5 eventually.
never told us about the 5v5 part either… we were thinking it would be 6v6 too in overwatch 2 but people did notice in videos of only being 5 players lol
maybe they could have balanced things like hog and other tanks if they tried
i also think they could have balanced 6v6 open queue if they tried but they were adamant on not nerfing supports and tanks so goats was always a thing. its ok to nerf tanks and supports by a lot in an open queue format since if no one wants to play them then who cares… the game still goes on or the show still goes on i mean. queue times dont matter in an open queue format when everyone gets in the same
Orisa + Roadhog was the only solid tank synergy he ever had and it purely because you could force a player into halt + hook. It didn’t fix his weakness at all. If you did not have Orisa, you are still insanely easy to counter.
Oh, you might have gotten away with less CC if you had a shield tank, but what if you dont’t have a shield tank? Counter picking is still insanely strong and worse, you are relying upon another player to shore up your weakness.
That’s not fixing Roadhog. That’s putting all of his hopes of getting fixed on another player.
Tank’s real issues with tank are the complexity with the role and their power level. Even at 6v6 tank’s weakest power, they were ALWAYS stronger than a DPS as a whole. The only way to fix them was either to make tanks weaker so they aren’t really tanks anymore or buff them to the point where they are more into that identity.
I’m quite happy with 5v5’s state of 4 ‘normal’ people and 1 tough leader. However, most people are not well suited for playing tank.
No one argues that. The problem is that in OW2 it’s become THE MAIN WAY to play the game. It’s become too effective to just counter pick whatever the tank is playing mindlessly because… there’s only one of them and shutting down the tank is a guranteed way of winning.
The game has became more about what you play and less about how you play. Obviously picks mattered in ow1, but you couldn’t just shut your brain off and counterpick the enemy tanks for value.
The core gameplay loop has been taken out of the players hands and put into the power of walking into spawn and clicking H. That feels horrible to play against.
Winning one fight and watching the team in real time just swap to your heroes counters, feel like GARBAGE. That’s been the entire issue with tank and why people don’t want to play it. It feels miserable playing into that.
That would be great if it was about skills and individual play… but it isn’t. OW2 boils down to “me go spawn, me click H, me get instant value” especially since the counterpick heroes (the main culprits) aren’t even remotely difficult to play.
This is where playing as a team comes into play, and even now in 5v5 which in my opinion I love 5v5 as I feel more impactful and there is less cluster. If my tank is roadhog, then playing as a team is essential to cover for his weakness. I believe every hero should have that known weakness to provide counter-play.
The issue I see nowadays is that people do not want to play as a team or even play comps that just synergize with one another.
I just believe that role-lock was and still is the problem, and that devs have to commit to a formula of balance changes…
Ex: The whole reason why we are in this 5v5 format is to reduce overall CC, and mostly give it to primarily Tanks correct? Then how is it that every hero has some form of CC…
I just feel like right now and at the start of OW2, the devs were always trying to balance the game with both mindsets of not only 5v5 and 6v6, but open queue and role-lock, etc. When they should have the focus of OPEN- QUEUE 6v6, but rework the heroes that they have currently reworked in OW2
They acknowledged the fact that 5v5 has its own balance problems.
They even acknowledged that they were unable to balance 6v6 properly.
But they spent most of the blog explaining why they chose 5v5 in the first place, by stating the flaws of 6v6 and the benefits of removing 1 tank per team.
That is the thing, it was always the main way to play the game even in OW1
Of course, you have to see if the team can play and cover your weakness is the first attempt
Second attempt, if you are not being effective, then one should swap.
This was always the way to go, and I wish I had the clip, but one of the devs said this game is like a “Rock-Paper-Scissor” type of game.
Trust me, I understand the frustration as role-lock gave that formula restrictions, and even now 5v5 it has even more restrictions as you are limited, but like I said counter-swapping was always the main way to play the game if you are not being effective.
I agree with this to a certain point as the game still revolves around how you play just as much as what you play too.
I do agree that it did seem like he largely glossed over the downsides of 5v5, but to be fair that wasn’t really the purpose of the blog post. It was more to discuss the history of their choices, and then announce what they’re going to do in the future.
Agree to disagree then, since I still think both was and still the core element of Overwatch.
In Overwatch 1, if your team did not have no synery or played as a team… or per say is getting countered, then swapping to best fit the scernio was always the game play back in OW1.
Now in Overwatch 2, that core element still applies, it is just since there are fewer people in the game, if one refuses to do so, or just makes more common mistake, the impact is much greater. The core element is still there and hasn’t changed, just people’s approach and mindset to the situation have.
A core gameplay mechanic that is overly effective in it’s current state due to solo tank. This is undeniable at this point. It’s been the main point harped on, for why tanking feels miserable since OW2 released.
Not NEARLY as effective as ow2 hence why it was way less people talking about it. Counter swapping right now makes an entire role in the game feel completely miserable to play. So miserable people have left the role in droves the more they play it.
Tank population is practically nonexistent.
Counterswapping being too effective against tanks is a fundamental format issue. 6v6 only had balance issues that it needed to solve.
90% of the issues stated in the blog post about 6v6… were nonissues. You rarely saw people complain about them that much.
I have CONSISTENTLY seen for nearly 2 years now (since OW2 released) on every platform available, tank players talk about how awful tanking is. So much so that it sparked this very 5v5 vs 6v6 debate in the first place. It’s TANK players that caused it because they are the ones mainly pointing out how awful the format is for their role.
They’re still ignoring the effectiveness of counterswapping in OW2 vs OW1. It wasn’t as effective in OW1. Your skill played more of a role in it than it does now.
