after playing some illari today i realized i still like most of her kit a lot but she needs a lot more.
with her being part of the upcoming la serrafim collab she should at least be viable in game!
lets start with current illari:
her turret is still absolutely busted. 100% uptime is insanely broken.
she has very high healing output but not for very long.[how it should be]
her damage output is abysmal, literal garbage. she cant kill a torb turret while its deploying.
she cant damage tanks at all.
and she doesnt really stand a chance against any character over 250hp and even a 250hp target requires two charged headshots and one uncharged headshot to kill.
her range is awful. she gets easily outranged by ashe widow and sojourn. even on the support side kiri, zen and ana are better options.
she offers no utility towards the team. no speed boost. no anti. nothing.
her ult is okay. its not bad but not the best either, people have learned to play around it and its just not consistent enough.
this is why she is currently awfull. her dps side has been neutered and she doesnt heal better then a moira would be able to.
all because her turret can easily break the game.
so lets fix that!
here’s what i suggest:
her turret now gains downtime.
meaning after healing it needs a while to recharge.
this is visible for the players by the turrets sun deactivating.
this also means that turret will be harder to see when its deactivated.
i suggest after 10 seconds of healing it sleeps for ten seconds before reactivating on its own.
redeploying the turret however will reactivate it instantly.
turrets cooldown goes up from 7 to 10 seconds.
cooldown starts upon turret activation.
her cooldown is now a direct link with her turrets healing output. if its off cooldown its also recharging.
if turret gets destroyed cooldown goes up from 14 seconds to 20 seconds.
turret can now be redeployed if under attack.
if turret is redeployed while under attack it will still have its previous leftover health and will first need to repair itself before starting to heal again.
turret hp increased to 175.
after illari redeploys turret she can heal her turret with her alt fire to speed up its recovery process.
these things combined make illari more vulnerable preventing illari bap comps breaking the game.
this also promotes more aggressive play rather then just sitting there.
my version of turret is like a lil pocket mercy you have to take with you and take good care of. rewarding players that know how to re-adjust on the fly.
i also want illari’s damage to go up.
fully charged hits should go up to 85 damage, meaning with headshots she will do 128 [127.5] damage.
just enough to reliably two shot 250 hps targets but not enough to destroy 225 hp targets instantly.
key here being that only fully charged hits will deal more damage. anything uncharged remains the same.
this also gives her more off a fighting chance against 275hp or above characters.
illari from the very start was designed as a dps/support hybrid with her turret acting as a tool to take and hold angles.
her turret was too strong at holding angles with 100% uptime so illari over time has lost her kick and sort off got warped into a healbot support that can only combo ults.
my version of illari allows her to be that dps/support hybrid without breaking the game.
this illari will be worse at holding angles and better at taking them.
I agree Illari does basically no damage but cant we just buff her damage instead of reworking how her pylon works?
I feel going this way might put us in a situation where people just dont even think its worth it to deploy her pylon at times and try to fight (And if she still isn’t strong she’ll be considered a throw pick).
i only write this because people have stated before, that 1 second is a lot of time in this game, so to have her pylon down for 10…
the reason why turret needs downtime is because if turret has 100% uptime she breaks the game. essentially a dps tank or support cannot take her down until turret is destroyed and except for tanks nowadays no character has enough uptime to destroy her turret without feeding in and dying.
this combined with baptiste and sigma created a pseudo double shields effect.
on maps like circuit and havana this would mean that you could basically never break through the amount of sustain the enemy had.
it was so powerful that it was even played on maps where it couldn’t work and still dominated the game. if illaris pylon had downtime none of that would’ve happened.
the reason why today it isn’t happening is because dive has become insanely strong and illari has been nerfed into the ground.
her turrets 100% uptime is the reason why she is so weak. in my rework her turret can still provide a lot of value but she wont be able to create those game breaking comps anymore.
in fact this will change her to actually play more alongside the current dive/rush comps.
that’s true which is why i think it would be fun if relocating instantly made it heal again.
and to be able to relocate when its being damaged allows her to be much more flexible with her positioning.
i also aimed for her to be less heal centered and more of a hybrid between dps and support.
How much time have you spent playing Illari? Serious question, not trolling or judging, just wondering.
The pylon needs to be permanent like it is, similar to Torb’s turret. Yes, it does tons of healing, potentially, but it can also be completely non-existent when the other team understands this and prioritizes destroying her pylon. The wait time to toss up another one isn’t exactly instant.
I feel like her damage is pretty good as long as you’re mindful of how you need to attack. You can’t spam shots with her, most of her damage is from a full charge single fire (no rapid fire spamming) to the head. She’s exceptional at eliminating flying targets like Echo, Mercy, and Pharah, but can also take down other targets quickly as well as long as your aim is good and you’re not panic clicking before it charges up.
Pylon is now tied directly to her secondary (heal beam) for everyone but Illari herself.
Meaning, for it to heal a teammate, Illari has to be using her secondary on that target (which also has to be in range of the Pylon).
An issue on top of it being 100% potential uptime, is that it is functionally a 3rd support with no potential for error, which is why it is exceedingly frustrating in 1v1 scenarios. Example: good Pylon placement can shut down a Tracer entirely.
I can’t go along with this one. The beam isn’t long enough, especially for flying targets. Scenarios where the pylon is impossible to target are so infrequent.
Some 1v1 fights just aren’t going to be balanced. You can make it so the pylon is easier to destroy for Tracer, but then it’s also that much easier to destroy for everyone else too and then she becomes a soft throw again in a team fight situation.
not too much but i have a pretty good understanding of what she can do.
more importantly i know that some heroes have broken abilities that in the end do more damage to their kit and the game, then they do good. like widowmaker one shots or baps lamp. illaris turret is one of those abilities.
which is where the problem lies. if its either insane or useless its not healthy for the game. my pylon is much more free to player expression while not breaking the game.
if the enemy team focuses your pylon just move it. you cant do that with current pylon.
it creates a healthy middle ground and adds a lot of skill ceiling to the ability.
interesting fact for you.
illari headshot damage fully charged at range is just worse then ana even without ana crits. falloff hits her hard with her falloff being 30 meters.
meanwhile ana has no falloff.
her fully charged non crit damage is 70, ana is 75 while being more spammable.
if we take a 225 target illari needs two charged crits and a body shot. ana needs three body shots or two crits with her crit perk.
ana doesnt even need to charge her crits and does more damage without falloff.
illari seems like she rewards precision but realistically she doesnt. not compared to ana.
ana is consistently better then illari in every way.
on top off all that ana provides better utility and has a more consistent ultimate.
thanks!
maybe a lil too harsh.
i mean now the tracer can visibly see the turret is down and win through that alone.
the dps passive also cuts deep into the turrets effectiveness during a 1v1 and with only fully charged hits dealing more damage it should prevent illari from doing too much damage too fast to lower hp targets. essentially my goal was to make everything 250hp and below have about the same ttk.
well if it stops healing mid fight then its not as reliable as it is right now leaning more into illaris skill ceiling.
dont take this as an offense but if your playing bap and your ally is playing pharah your not responsible for snipe healing them out of the sky. you can try! but they should’ve picked better, not every hero can work in every scenario and that’s a good thing!
especially if it solves a potentially broken meta from dominating the game.
unless you hit your shots and know how to position well. what angles to take and what duels to avoid. your thinking off illari solely as a healer, she’s a hybrid get into that dps mindset! if tracer destroys your turret destroy her for doing so! you shouldnt be reliant on turret to define your value to your team
I didnt mention it since I don’t have too much time to go into detail, but:
The beauty of adding more skill requirement to a hero is that it leaves more room in a hero’s power budget to buff them in meaningful ways.
They can increase the beam’s range as much as they need to.
This is a design problem. Illari is best played in poke, where you can play “keep away”, thus making your Pylon pretty much indestructible. If poke isn’t as viable, neither is Illari. She’s not a particularly flexible support in this regard.
Again, this is the advantage of adding higher skill requirement. You can buff/change things meaningfully if there is margin for error in the ability usage. It could even potentially make her a more flexible support.
That’s part of the benefit of playing Illari is that you aren’t confined to anything a few meters right in front of you and you can have fun being a hybrid while teammates get self service healing by being in range of your pylon.
My comment about Tracer was in response to Pepe. They were saying that it’s unfair for Tracer to try to 1v1 Illari because they feel like they can’t jump Illari because the healing pylon outheals faster than Tracer can wear them down. That’s by design, and the obvious way to adjust that would make the pylon too fragile in a teamfight situation. I was explaining why Tracer not being able to quickly dispatch Illari is understandable.
yes exactly! pylon is the reason why all other parts of her kit are so weak, nerfing pylon means she can be buffed elsewhere where needed.
my whole goal with this rework was too make illari not too strong in poke comps but be able to be played in rush/dive comps.
but you are though. right now optimal way off playing illari IS standing in one spot! thats what i want to change!
why in a shooter should there ever be a situation where players cant kill each other? the player vs player interaction is what makes ow so special! its the mindgames between two players that make the game fun!
illaris pylon is currently a no skill ability which just wins the fight by default, that shouldn’t exist. no ability like that should exist imo.
The issue is not Illari being unkillable (I left a condition where she alone benefits from the auto heal), but that targets in general are nigh impossible to kill through unhealthy design.
Do read my last reply carefully. I go pretty in depth about this there.
To each their own, I respect both of your views and I think the rework ideas are interesting.
As far as players not being able to elim each other go in a 1v1 situation, it’s not impossible, it’s just that some kits are going to be harder to fight against than others, then you factor in familiarity and skill and it deepens. It’s also inherent with so many variances among a wide variety of characters. It is a team game after all and 1v1 fights aren’t as likely without someone intervening.
it is a team game but its also a game that really invites player expression. 1v1s might not be the whole game but they are just as important.
i remember when venture released and everyone complained they could get elims in the backline too easily. illaris turret is like the support version off venture, it denies value too easily which in tern makes the dps side “feel” bad.
if a player cant blame their lack of skill and the fault lies with bad game design it just feels awful. regardless of role, rank or skill level.
the most fun ow matches is where you have that one semi rival on the enemy team and you go back and forth with them the whole match! or atleast in my experience.
its why i like ow. i feel like I’m fighting other humans and not just the game.
Glad you’re respectful about it — it’s a rarity!
I kind of want to bring you into my headspace a little bit, and why I think this way.
Getting this out of the way, I kept a condition that Illari still benefits from turret self auto-heal. Her personal matchups are unaffected.
If there is margin for error in their kit, there is more room to make their abilities more impactful.
Examples would be: increase in range, increase in output, increase in HP of deployables.
There is a reason that heroes like Moira and LW have certain limitations.
LW: no aim requirement for healing, therefore his healing output can’t be higher.
He has struggled to find a place in the game. He becomes a stat monster in anything that takes skillful input, which reduces his value as a support.
Moira: no aim requirement for damage, therefore her damage and range is heavily capped.
What I’m arguing is that if Illari had more of a skill requirement, there would be opportunity to make her more balanced and more versatile (which addresses the problems Illari players have with their hero).
The idea that she can place Pylon to do all of her healing and go way off on her own and do her own thing has certain detrimental effects to her overall hero power:
The value/power of Pylon has to be reduced.
she is forced to play in a very particular way to maximize value.
Her Pylon being able to produce value independent of Illari, means Illari herself can’t be as powerful in departments such as damage.
Thanks for acknowledging this, because very few people, even among our ranks, understand Tracer well enough to know this.
Because the thing is, a Zen orb might deny Tracer similarly, but that’s also 100% of his healing output. If you fight someone with a Zen orb for a while, they won’t die, but now Zen only has one cooldown and literally no healing to provide the rest of his team with. They’re fighting with one Support (if you’re on a DPS) and 1.5 DPS (Because Zen basically is one). So you actually have value in fighting that.
An Illari turret heals more, so much that you can’t cut through it at all on Tracer, and Illari herself can still heal and damage perfectly well without it. Her secondary fire heals a LOT, so she doesn’t even NEED Pylon to put up good numbers. So if you’re fighting a DPS with Pylon on them, the enemy team has 1.5 DPS and two Supports. It’s a fundamental difference that people just don’t get. There’s a reason I hate Illari even though she’s not always the best.
not with my rework
i just think its such a shame illari got basically neutered just because of one broken ability that 90% off players don’t understand.
this way pylon doesnt completely lose its value but it wont straight up deny all value.
i think illari would be much healthier for the game as a flexible support that can take angles then just holding angles forever in poke comps.
Firstly, thank you both for having the courage to put yourselves out there and taking the time to explain your thoughts and for being thorough. I enjoy a nice read with substance to it even if I ultimately end up not being on board with it. I think topics often get lost because people get so busy picking at each other over small things that they lose the topic entirely which is a shame.
Second, I agree with the LW assessment to an extent. They’ve helped him a little bit with perks but he could be improved a little more. I’m a LW main and I can say that i’ve been seeing more LW use lately. I think most people just don’t play him for the right reasons and he is underutilized. Like other characters, he’s also situational to an extent, so what you’re using him for may not always be the best choice and they may be expecting him to perform something that he just isn’t built to do. Personally, I would like 1s reduction from Life Grip, and a slight healing increase to his normal charged heal. Also take away the perk for healing bonus after dash, it’s pointless. Instead, give me a petal platform on a lower cooldown at the expense of halving the health of the platform as a perk.
How capped is Moira? Her numbers for damage and healing always seem effortlessly high.
Would it be possible to share one or two replays where the pylon is simply unreachable/unkillable for a team? I’d be interested in seeing how Illari would look with the rework you described but it all seems to be centered around solving a problem that I just haven’t seen regularly.
h ttps://youtu.be/1LNjZklCKsE?si=AT4AutgM4TMcp-5t
this is the only one i could find however looking up s11 illari bap sigma meta might yield more results
oh and i found a short of samito raging
h ttps://youtube.com/shorts/KVgvrqvboQE?si=VYk6V1Ihg1R9IZYZ
jk, i respect it a lot.