If you are ready to go this far to rework symmetra, don't change her category

The only reason I like Sym is for her shield gen. If they get rid of her shield generator then she shouldn’t be inthe support category.

Obviously not because Hanzo and Widow don’t have any extensive area deniability. Or at least not more than any offense hero. Yet you think that it makes sense to define defense by that trait which is by definition false.

Yes they do. Hanzo has sonic arrow that prevents targets from going through a certain area or they got shot. Hanzo’s ult is a textbook definition of area deniability. Widow’s ult is the same as hanzo’s sonic arrow and has her poison mine that was designed to be put in areas where enemies close in on.
Both of these heroes have one thing and that’s range that makes perching up top high ground and aiming sights down chokepoints (which you deal with them all the time when on attack) makes their primary purpose area deniability.

So you are saying that Sonic Arrow is more effective at preventing people to get in than at sneakily telling your team where the enemy is/giving you a tool to make your projectile more reliable ? Most ultimate in the game are the definition of area deniability if we go by your text book. Tac Visor, Dead eye, Meteor strike,… Not only that but it’s an ultimate, it’s not an active part of his kit. If we analyse him it’s obviously an assassin/hunter, someone that can sneakily use verticality and knowledge to kill a specific target. Nothing in his kit scream area denial at all or again, at least not more than any other offense hero.

Having verticality in the back doesn’t give you area deniability, it gives you a different angle which allows you to be offensively effective in a different way. objectively speaking it doesn’t allow them to shoot through shields thus it is on the same scale as any offense hero. Heck even putting reaper at a choke is more effective than that in most situation.

wat

In conjunction with the rest of their kit, no, it doesn’t.

You are describing genji, not hanzo.

You forgot to include ‘from a distance’. The likes of soldier and mcree works better in mid-range in comparison to widow and hanzo. Because of that safety measure of being able to ward off an area from a distance, it makes them better at defense then the likes of offense heroes. However, that only works in theory, not in practice. Hence why defense heroes aren’t all that viable in defense. Regardless, that doesn’t mean that the kit design ideas of defense heroes didn’t have area deniability in mind. That’s why saying “defense heroes are just offense heroes with a different name” is false. It’s apparent from the design.

Sym is not a support.

We are not lacking supports in OW.

You are lacking an argument

Wat wat?

Because McCree flash bang and long range cleaning potential or doomfist noisy one shot right click isn’t better designed for area denial than hanzo wallhack ? Come on now

Because the only reason you pick hanzo isn’t to get a quick assasinnation… also did You know that they originate from the same assassin hero concept ?..

I didn’t. You understand that hanzo is a mid range dps ? Widow is the only one and even then covering an area from a specific range is what every hero does. Doing from further do not turn it into area denial it’s obvious.

Well at least we are finally getting a new defense hero.

I’m asking you to clarify your comment, because it doesn’t make sense.
How do you not know what a “wat” is asking for? Then again, it’s apparent english is not your first language.

Flashbang is not long range nor is df’s right click.

“someone that can sneakily use verticality”
Unless as hanzo, you can “sneakily” get in a place where you can wallclimb and shoot someone and get out like a genji can, hanzo does not “assassinate”.

He can be played long-range more effectively than mcree or soldier can. That’s what I’m implying.

How does it not? From a distance away, from high ground, you are repeatedly firing high damage rounds down a chokepoint as hanzo or widow, better than a soldier and mcree. You are preventing them from coming down that chokepoint. Because you can get one shot by widow or hanzo, but cannot from mcree or soldier.

And I am asking you to clarify what you didn’t understand in that simple sentence. Clearly your brain lagged at some point and unless I know that point there’s no way I can simplify it.

How is range a factor in area denial ??? Literally every actual area denial hero are close range heroes.

Indeed unless you wallclimb poke an arrow/scatter at an unexpected angle to assassinate a target and fall off of the wall back to your team, AKA the most basic hanzo strat unless you plan on spamming a front shield. Hanzo does not an assa… oh wait.

If by more effectively you mean no damage fall off but barely any chance to hit your mark, sure. But that’s unrelated to hero concept.

Questionable hanzo gameplay aside, because angle does not equate to area denial it equate to more chance to get a pick. Spamming a choke (meaning spamming a shield getting through a choke) does not equate to area denial unless you have enough damage or CC to prevent it. AKA Junk Mei Bastion and torb for the addition of an additional source of damage. If you mean punishing player who get out of position McCree and soldier do just that

I was thinking this as well. Based on her proposed kit, if it works out how I imagine it. Then it really could turn her into a meta hero potentially.

This move and kit change is going to be really good for the hero and the game. It may take time for people who main the hero to warm up to the idea because it is such a massive change, but it is a good change. And I think they’ll get a lot less flack going forward.

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“So you are saying that Sonic Arrow is more effective at preventing people to get in than at sneakily telling your team where the enemy is/giving you a tool to make your projectile more reliable ?”
Because based off of this, you’re trying to compare two separate things when they’re pretty much the same thing. I guess you’re somehow assuming that telling your team where the enemy is and knowing where your enemy is at so you can shoot them when they turn a corner is, for some reason, not a deterrent for them to pass. That’s what doesn’t make any sense.

Negative. Some are, some aren’t. Mei is mostly close range. Junkrat, hanzo, and widow are not. For hanzo and widow, range contributes to their area deniability.

You act like that’s his primary purpose and that’s his only thing. As hanzo, you’re shooting either from afar or mid-range. You’re not exclusively sneaking up and one-shotting them and you also won’t always find dropping back to your team as a viable getaway; meanwhile, elims resetting swift strike is a better getaway option as well as deflect. So it’s almost like he’s not an assa… oh wait.

???
What do you mean unrelated to hero concept? You mean the no dmg falloff was just in his design by accident?
Also, you’re shooting down chokepoints. Unless you’re shooting from volskaya point b to point a, then you should be able to hit someone.

You’re telling me that the enemy having a hard time getting through the point because they’re getting shot at isn’t area denial?.. you’re joking…

You’re telling me… 120-125 dmg (250-300 headshot) isn’t enough dmg to prevent it?.. YOU’RE JOKING

You’ll typically have another dps anyways.

Nope. We’re talking about preventing the enemy team from going down a certain area into the point/payload to cap it/move it.

Here is what Geoff said about why they didn’t go that direction. They did try it out.

Think about it like this:
So far, sym has had a time fitting into this game. She’s always been “first point This” or “second point that”. This change will give her more usage amoungst the community.

I see, let me rephrase it then. Sonic arrow utility (which is to tell where the enemy is in a certain area) isn’t more efficient at preventing a group of enemy to get through a choke than most offense heroes because knowing that a shield is going to pass by a corner is an info that barely carries the prevention potential a Mei wall or a Junk mine has. As such Sonic arrow purposes is obviously very different and unrelated to area denial if you look at hanzo kit that allows to him to climb and poke from unexpected locations or kill enemies that have no shields like flankers (peeling) or are unaware (early pick) and is obviously based on projectiles.

Junk is mostly close range. Bastion lose effectiveness the further a target is. Torbjorn kit is a mix. Hanzo and widow aren’t and that’s literally the base of the argument here.

The primary purpose of hanzo and widow is to get picks indeed. That’s why the most basic guideline for these heroes is ‘if you don’t get picks, switch’. Is that the only thing? No there are micro tasks to every hero but clearly in their case area denial is barely part of it. As sniper they benefit far more from finding an angle to get a pick than preventing people from crossing a choke (which is something they aren’t even equiped for regardless.)

As for the rest I feel more and more like you have no clue about hanzo as a hero. Nor do you know what assassin means.

What I mean is that by extension his projectiles are not meant to be effective at long range. Being more effective because of that part is not related to the concept but to the mechanic of projectile. Clearly if you do the math you see that your chances of hitting someone at long range in relation to accuracy and time are moreless equal to the amount of damage you’d do from long range as McCree or Soldier for instance, thus telling you that you should play him at medium range if you want to play him properly.

  1. Again, anyone can spam a choke…

  2. A hanzo spamming a choke isn’t going to prevent people from getting through the choke, it’s going to get picks prior to that push. That’s a completely different concept from area denial. If getting a pick prior to a push to a choke is area denial then Tracer is better at that.

If you want more relevant example of that, you can watch the range at which wraxu play and what he does. It’s eye opening.

125 damage on a shield at the rate at which he fires is indeed not enough… I think it’s obvious. Unless we are finally agreeing that Reaper 200damage headshot and higher damage on shield is also area denial and thus that hanzo doesn’t have more area denial potential than offense heroes ? (come on, I know you can do it)

That’s not what I meant. Torb turret is an additional source of damage that creates area denial.

Ok then.

You didn’t read my post

I don’t know why you keep using shields as a counter point. All that proves is that shields counter hanzo and widow; doesn’t prove that their kit had area denial in mind. Regardless, like I said and like you ignored, having enemies be cautious when turning a corner because there are wallhacks and they can get shot and insta-killed if shot in the head is an effective area denial. They have to wait it out, or use shields which progresses them slower to the point.

It is not different than area denial, it is area denial. Furthermore, hanzo’s wallclimb was mostly intended to be used as a means to get to high ground. Like I said before, we’re talking about theory, not practice. Hence why scatter arrow’s initial intention was to be shot in a small room so it can hit everyone inside but instead got shot at someone’s feet to burst them.

Junkrat can spam fire around corners, which can effectively be long-range.
Defense can be long-range, mid-range, or close-range. There is no specific pattern other than area denial.

Again, we’re talking about THEORY, NOT PRACTICE. I don’t know how many time I have to tell that to your sorry *ss. It’s literally the same as mcree. His initial design was to be used as an anti-flank, but does poorly as an anti-flank.

Ok, then explain what your definition of an assassin is. Because, to me, an assassin is someone that can quietly get in, kill a target, then get out unscathed. Hanzo’s got half of the first part, all of the second part, and barely any of the third part. Meanwhile, genji’s got all of the first part, all of the second part, and all of the third part. Genji is far more qualified to be called an assassin. In theory, hanzo’s supposed to be mid to long-range area denial; in practice, he’s a high dmg mid-range.

Ok so he works better at medium range. Doesn’t mean he can’t be more effective long-range if he hits his shots then a mcree or soldier can, and it doesn’t disqualify how his other abilities equate to area denial.

Not as effectively as a hanzo can from a design perspective. Once more… THEORY, NOT PRACTICE.

You’re completely ignoring his sonic arrow, scatter, and ult.

THEORY

NOT
PRACTICE

Jfc… shields don’t disprove that they’re not area denial by design. It only proves that shields counter them. You’re really grasping at straws here.

My point still stands.


Can’t post 'cause muted, but can edit. Bear with me.

So you’re telling me that killing an enemy that turns a corner because they were revealed which informs that person’s team that the hanzo can see around that corner isn’t area denial? They are aware that sonic arrow has a duration so they’re forced to stay back or coordinate to cross. You’re gonna tell me that’s not area denial? Knowing you though, you’re gonna say some random offense hero is the same too, like df or mcree, yet mcree doesn’t have other assets (other than his ult) that further his capabilities to deny access to an area as well as having the one-shot potency that a hanzo will have with crits and scatter, as well as his ult. Df has rp, but if he uses it, he’s put in a terrible spot, meanwhile if hanzo misses his sh*t, he’s fine. Pretty much all heroes has capabilities to prevent access to an area, but how effectively they can do so plays a factor in it as well. Hence widow and hanzo, with their one-shot capabilities - amongst other things (their abilties)- and their ability to do so at a safe enough spot without having to worry about getting out of position from using there stuff, makes them defense heroes. It makes their best asset (ON PAPER), area deniability.

The hell?.. what do you mean… “no”?

Once again, the fact that the enemy team can use shields don’t mean they’re not centered around area deniability, it just means they get countered by shields.

Read first quote reply

The only thing you stated is that if they have shields, they can no longer deny access to an area. By that logic, if a mcree can shut down an enemy tracer, that tracer is no longer a flank.

Fair enough. I didn’t pay attention to the “mostly” part.

I am obviously not trolling as you have been ignoring EVERYTHING that I’ve stated and will likely continue to do so. But if you want to end this, fine by me. Whatever gets you off my *ss.
I also did not state it mattered exclusively for defense heroes, I said it mattered for hanzo and widow. Go back and read it again.

Your shield excuse literally means nothing at this point and yet you keep bringing it up. I could tell you the sky is blue and you’d argue that it’s green because you’re wearing green-tinted glasses.
No matter… yes… that is what that means.

Ninjas. Are. Assassins. Too.

Probability is what eventually made defense heroes not good on defense, just like probability didn’t make mcree a very good anti-flank. That’s why I keep highlighting that this talk is about theory, not practice; which has pretty much fallen on deaf ears.

Sick straw man.

Ok…? All you’re implying is that sometimes designs worked for their intended purpose, other’s did not.

All you’re proving is that some defense heroes are shield busters. Are you gonna mention torb and how he’s not really a shield buster or that he doesn’t work his way around shields?

Pot calling the kettle black there heh

Not gonna convince him, though, as evident from this exchange.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/i-realize-now-what-i-always-wanted-for-symmetra/83052

This is what I want from her, and it’d make her a defender.

The funny thing is that with the rework to put her in defense she will have more support then she ever had before thanks to the new teleporter. Being able to grant low mobility allies quick access to high ground or going from one side of a point to another is immensely powerful utility we would expect from a support.

Still, at this point Blizzard has decided that healing is needed based on how the game has developed to this point so even though she will have more support then before its not enough to keep her in the support lineup.

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Ok, now I am worried, what rank are you ? Do you even play competitively ? And like I said, they wont be cautious, or at least not more than you would normally be because there’s no sound that goes along with the arrow. You wont know what’s coming that’s the point, it’s to ‘kill’ not to deny an area. If you get out of position and get killed in a corner that’s clearly not area denial in the context of the game.

Ok, let’s do some basics here.

Does knowing where the enemy comes from (obviously the corner) prevents them from accessing an area ? Yes. Does it make it more difficult for them to do so than with any other offense hero ? No.
-You just move behind your shield or you wait for your main tank to create space before crossing the corner like any descent team would do.
-If the enemy is unaware and cross a corner it is exactly the same thing as a reaper or tracer waiting sneakily at a corner in the back and killing someone who is unaware of its presence.

As such this can’t be considered as area denial in the context of the game. This is not an area denial tool that’s a killing tool to make up for its projectiles. I can’t believe we are still on it.

Which is why it’s ‘mostly’ close range, everything else in his kit is close range. And everything else in his kit is made of area denial utility. Saying that junkrat is a long range hero because his projectile can roll this far is like saying that soldier is long range because his right click has no damage fall off. Let’s not go that road.

Wat ? The point is literally that range isn’t a factor in area denial, I tell you that every actual area denial are close range, you babble some non sense and now you agree that range doesn’t matter ? Ok, that will be my last post. Not only is it a waste of time but you are clearly trolling at this point.

So in theory a non splash 125 damage projectile hero with a high damage angle shot that benefits from middle range and veritcality with an utility wall hack that tells him where the enemy is, is meant to prevent a shield from crossing a choke from long range instead of getting picks… :thinking:

You’re defining a ninja. A sniper is an assassin in case you didn’t know.

-if- he hits a projectile at long range it’s a ‘chance’. Probability can be averaged in case you didn’t understand what I was talking about.

In theory you can press left click at a choke, done.

IN THEORY A TRACER IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE BACKLINE LOOKING FOR A TARGET THAT’S EXACTLY THE POINT.

Part of the game design, doesn’t disprove that something isn’t area denial by design. Let me think about it, why is junk mine and trap meant to go through shields ? Why is Mei so effective at by passing shields ? Why is bastion bursting shields ? Oh, right… Because it’s meant to do area denial by design.

Your point doesn’t make sense then but that’s in line with the rest.

It’s far too late now. She’s a defender and you can’t change that.