I think 7v7 (2-3-2, with a limit of 1 shield tank) would be better than either 6v6 or 5v5. 
2 Likes
They should’ve just done that with 6V6, limit it to 1 Shield Tank.
Instead they made Countless Reworks, Neutered Tanks and made them Unplayable in Open Queue.
3 Likes
Oh look, just like we do in game right now
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The other major issue with 6v6 is nothing dies because you have tanks in the front with massive health pools AND defensive rotating abilities. You have double healing. Its not evne double shield its double defensive rotations. Even a Dva + Roadhog will soak up most of the damage and nothing will die because they bodyblock all the shots, heal off the damage, remech, and defense matrix a ton of stuff. Double shield was the worst offender.
Even with one shield tank + 1 offtank in Zarya or Dva you had a crap ton of mitigation in the game eating up a lot of damage. Removing a singular tank allows more of that damage to get through and while parts of it are healed up far, far, far less is being mitigated with only a single tank in play.
Matches to me are faster paced because you have 2 supports and 2 DPS heroes in the rear that can exchange damage with each other and less of it is getting gobbled up with a tank getting in the way either from absorbing the damage via LoS or a raw defensive ability.
1 Like
Yeah, but now all of those Cool-Downs go to Ruining the Tanks, Meanwhile all of the Supports can now Rotate Defensive Cool-Downs.
The Tanks got Neutered, had their Power and Duo Buddies Removed, but they keep all of the Blame while the Supports do a better Job than they ever did in Overwatch 1?
7 Likes
Overwatch 3 - 4v4
or…
Overwatch 4 - 3v3
; )
Support defensive cooldowns are far less oppressive than tank defensive cooldowns.
I’ll use the Suzu vs Defense matrix on a reaper ult. Reaper ult does something like 150-200 DPS for 3seconds while Suzu stops the damage for 0.65s once every 15seconds. Defense matrix will stop all damage reaper is doing for the ENTIRE duration instantly and in OW1 recharged in ~8seconds. It blocked more of the ult in certainty AND it was up more frequently. Dva was so good that nearly ever OWL team for years woudl field a Dva into a team until the double shield era of Sigma’s release.
Or how about we use immortalilty field behind a pillar for 5seconds once every 30seconds to stop dying to widowmaker. Oh, Sigma can put up shield that blocks all damage from a widow shot a significantly lower cooldown and more flexibility.
These defensive abilities out of tanks are hella oppressively. You cant’ even get ult charge on defense matrix or sigma barrier. All the stuff supports are healing? They still advance the game state. The DPS gained ult charge. The supports gained ult charge. No one gains ult charge on abilities which are damage reduced from hitting armor, or fortify, or overdrive, or shields. Ult generation just stops out right.
Tank defensive abilities are the strongest in the entire game compared for spamability and versatility. Way, way way more than support abilities.
That’s because you used Crap examples.
Suzu Cleanses ALL Stuns and Debuffs. Earthshatter? Suzu. Terra-Surge? Suzu. Deadeye? Suzu. Riptire? Suzu. Self-Destruct? Suzu. Rampage? Suzu. Those are all Ultimates that get Ruined by a MAGIC BAG OF SAND FROM A TEENAGER!
Plus Baptiste’s Lamp can do the Same Thing to Protect Teammates.
3 Likes
Too many changes needed to go back to 5v5
Nerf to tank individual power
Nerf to tank synergy
Nerf to supports
Buff to dps
It’s very unlikely to happen as is. And the longer we stay in 5v5 and less likely we go back to 6v6 due to the list of changes keep increasing.
Well they Wasted all of this Time making 5V5 Work (it still doesn’t), so why not Waste even more time going back to 6V6?
12 Likes
Every single complaint people have about stopping ults with an ability you can do the same thing with either a shield or defense matrix/kinetic grasp.
When you have two tanks in the game you are generally going to hvae a game with a shield tank or a sigma/dva for kinetic grasp/matrix.
The loss of a 2nd tank meant those defensive ability uptimes were dramatically reduced and now rather than people whining about double shield or defense matrix or sigma its now gone into supports since people will always complain about anything that interrupts their kills be it tanks or healing.
Yet, supports cannot interrupt those things as frequently as tanks ever can with their incredibly high defensive abilities on much much shorter cooldowns
Shields can’t Unstun or Un-Debuff someone. Also they can’t Block Rampage or Terra-Surge, Riptire can get behind them, Matrix can’t Block Riptire or Self-Destruct at all.
Hilariously, I can see stopping most of these with just Reinhardt when I look at the full kit though most of them can be heavily dealt with on just his shield.
High noon blocked by shield or blocks enough of the shot to let people get to cover.
Shatter blocked by rein shield.
Riptire blocked by reinshield or destroyed by fire strike. You literally have to wiggle it around the reinshield to kill anything giving others time to destroy it.
Rampage is about doing like ~100 dmg and blocks healing. Shield blocks damage that is required on the bionade to secure kills. Though you can consider shatter/charging the JQ if you anticipate the rampage.
Self destruct is completely blocked by shield.
You can’t stop terra surge on shield.
Man is Reinhardt annoying with that stupid shield of his getting in the way of ultimate timings making things difficult for his high uptime compared to 1time 15sec suzu usage.
I don’t need to unbuff someone. I just block the follow-up damage required to kill that person debuffed. That’s why tanks are so good. Oh, that person you stunned on shatter. Defense matrix blocking the damage for the entire stun duration.
There are multiple ways to save people in this game and shields grasp/matrix are among the most plentiful ways to interrupt any type of killing blow.
You literally cannot, it goes through Shield.
Also, now there’s a Rampaging Junker Queen behind you.
OW2 currently is in a way better state than it was the last couple of years if 6 v 6. Queue times are better and balancing is easier - both of which are issues players perpetually complain about - so 5 v 5 is worth it for those two things alone.
Reverting back to 6 v 6 would take soooo much rebalancing and almost certainly create more problems than it solves. Also, I rarely see the 5 v 5 haters actually explain how reverting back to two tanks would alleviate the issues they’re concerned about. It’s mostly just rose-tinted glasses
Many of those things in OW1 are mitigated by the balance we have now and their changes, but the biggest issue is that tanks ARE THE MOST POWERFUL CHARACTERS IN THE ENTIRE GAME. That was true in OW1 and its simply more true now in OW2.
Role for role balance. 2 tanks in OW1 were always more powerful than 2 supports or 2 DPS. There is no comparison. There were many things wrong with OW1, but tanks were by far the biggest contribution of the imbalance within the game.
Going to 1 tanks balances out the game where 2 DPS and 2 Supports can be more balanced with each other as a whole role because while a tank is always more value than a DPS 2 DPS can attempt to deal with a tank. Just as its more reasonable to expect 2 supports to fight off 1 tanks than 2 tanks.
We have a few more remaining issues like Sombra overwhelming feels like she dumpsters a Ball for example for how little effort it takes to use or how a bastion greatly counters a Winston in play.
Yeah I think the difficult in balancing two tanks is what ultimately made them decide to switch to 5 v 5. OW2 tanks can be much more unique and strong without worrying about the unbelievably strong synergies two tanks can create. Like imagine Ram or Mauga with another tank - sht would be awful lol
Matches feel a lot more dynamic in 5v5. Having a tank buddy was nice, but tanks have always been softly OP.
From the beginning, Rein and Winston were monsters in head-to-head combat, usually requiring a specialist or 2v1 to have any hope of beating them if you ever found yourself face-to-face with them.
I remember the devs saying one of the first cheese strats they came up with was 5 Winstons and a Lucio.
It feels like the rest of the cast gets a chance to actually do things in a world where there’s just one tank. Not to mention that I myself as the tank can actually get loose in the backline without throwing.
1 Like
How I would describe it is that the strategy in OW2 can be more fluid. You can either ignore the enemy tank or you can go after the backline. With two tanks in play going after backlines is incredibly difficult because there is almost always some behemoth in the way either soaking up LoS or blocking abilities.
Stylosa a year ago I remember capturing this sentiment very well in this first 50sec blurb at the start of the video. There are less tanks. There is less people. There is a playstyle change supports need to undergo. THey need to look after themselves more readily.
One can go and make the argument that supports got overbuffed going into OW2, but the sentiment is still the same that there is a tank missing. Going after the backline is easier because your LoS to them has opened up. There is less mitigation in the game.
Healing exists, but the damage is still damage compared to damage that is reduced or flat out ignored or missed because of tanks always getting in the way.
Another part of why I enjoy 5v5 is simply there is less total clutter. It feels so much easier to coordinate with teams of 5 than trying to get an extra player on bored.