"I can't control how people react to what I say..."

We are in agreement on this.

It is very important for the speaker to choose their words wisely. Just like it is very important for a listener to choose their reactions wisely. By viewing what is said using the context of the situation. Objectively and with emotions not being the driving force (to make this clear I am not saying stop feeling I am just saying your emotions are not in the drivers seat.) behind that interpretation.

To be 100% clear, I am not advocating that the speaker has zero responsibility. I am simply stating that the listener has EQUAL responsibility to interpret what is being said to them.

Which is not what the OP said at all. Control is different then influence and responsibility does not fall solely on the speaker for a miscommunication. Why?

Because it is a double standard. You are expecting the speaker to read the mind and past of a person they are speaking to as to avoid offense while at the same time claiming that it is unreasonable for the listener to be able to determine intent.

While frankly both have the same disadvantage. They are different people from each other. Which makes any discourse (such as the one we are having now) an agreement that BOTH sides will do their best to both SAY what they mean and UNDERSTAND what the other is saying.

Forgive me for pulling out an overused phrase but “Communication is a two way street.”

In order for people to communicate it needs TWO things to happen. One has to speak and the other has to LISTEN (not hear, hearing is different).

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Yes, and they are annoyed when I spread my legs out while I sit too. Nothing I can do about it but sit uncomfortably. Ain’t nobody got time fo dat.

I adhere to the Golden rule. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Right? So I do not chew with my mouth open, that is disgusting. That being said, if someone does it to me, I do not take it as a personal attack. I am just grossed out.

Taking this back to Overwatch, I am not toxic, but if someone wants to be toxic, I do not take it personally even if it is a direct attack. Why? The better question is why would I?

The speaker also has to consider the visible emotions of the listener, the social etiquette rules of the community they are in, etc.

There was never any disagreement that how the speaker handles their reaction is unimportant. I never argued otherwise.

I am talking about language is subjective. And it is on the speaker to best tailor their words to be understood by the listener, within reason. A listener cannot read your mind, but a speaker can learn etiquette.

Edit:
It’s called reading the room.

On top of that, the control thing was a simple turn of phrase.

Yes, once again we are in agreement. I am not saying the speaker has no responsibility here.

Only if the listener applies emotion without context and allows them to drive their response.

You mean objectively observing the room to determine context and proper action? I agree.

Not really. Richc said someone said this to them. Meaning the phrase was exactly what they encountered.

Which if you objectively view what the other person says then the person who originally said it is right and RichC allowed their emotions to change the meaning instead of viewing it objectively.

Under this logic, why can the listener not learn etiquette, again, I missed that part of your argument.

Language itself is subjective.

The person used a fairly common phrase, and RichC turned that phrase in on itself as a rhetorical device.

The listener’s reaction will also be informed by etiquette.

Flying off the handle because someone slurped soup is inappropriate. But, a person saying “Could you please eat a little quieter?” isn’t being inappropriate. And it is the soup slurper that was the one that caused the offense. Because they failed to take into account social etiquette. The listener isn’t being overly sensitive or in the wrong for having an emotion (in this case annoyance) about it.

No, he didn’t.

He literally saw someone say the exact phrase and took it out of context to talk about influencing instead of control.

Do I believe RichC did this intentionally? No. My impression of them is a good one and I do not think they would attempt to mislead intentionally. I just think RichC allowed their emotional state to change the meaning of the word “control” to “influence”.

If RichC had thought about the statement objectively I would assume they would have seen that the phrase as they quoted it was about control.

Can you control a person through words? No.

Yeah, he did. He just turned it in on itself. Which is a fairly common rhetorical device. He isn’t speaking about literal control.

You see it all the time when people challenge the wisdom of famous phrases.

RichC isn’t but the original speaker is.

That is my point. RichC saw someone say something and allowed their emotions to change the meaning.

The entire rant is about influence. I recognize that. My point is that his rant is based of his mistaken assumption of meaning in the first place.

Was the original speaker right? Is the phrase “I can’t control how someone reacts!” true or false?

They even use the word themselves. Clearly showing that they have the meaning of the word wrong.

See how I objectively viewed the entire situation and drew a valid conclusion yet?
The original person used the word control to mean control. RichC mistook it to mean influence as their emotions over rode what the word meant. Had RichC set those emotions to one side to consider those words they most likely would have realized that control and influence are two different things.

In the very first post we have PROOF that a person can say something 100% clear and the listener failed to consider objectively what is said. Is it the speakers fault that RichC did not understand what control meant?

Because he was rejecting the wisdom of the phrase and the attitude of the people who use it to absolve themselves of responsibility for their words.

It’s like when people say “You CAN have it all.”

They don’t mean you can literally do every single thing you’ve ever wanted to do. They are challenging the common advice “You can’t have it all” and the attitude that comes with it that stops people from reaching their full potential or from trying to have some kind of work/life balance.

Because he assumed the intent of the phrase was to absolve all responsibilty. Which that phrase does not have that intent contextually within it.

You don’t know that because you weren’t there. Regardless, this person was used as a framing device to discuss an issue he sees as important.

Intent cannot be neatly summed up like this amongst strangers. If someone walks up to you to ask you the time, you don’t know if they actually want the time or plan to steal your watch.

Plenty of statistics can be found online, such as here:

http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/

There is a difference between pre-mediated (intentional) violence and spontaneous violence. There are plenty of cases where someone assaults another person based on a reaction rather than something they intended to do.

I said “pleasant discourse”, not communication.

Since you put a lot of faith into dictionary definitions, here is the definition of “discourse”:

written or spoken communication or debate.

Not all communication is pleasant, nor a discourse. Most communication is done with non-verbal gestures.

You tell me.

The point of this thread is that when someone says “GG” after a game they’ve won, they can look like a jerk when the game wasn’t good for the other team. This is true.

So then, when you ask: “Why are you purposfully making yourself angry, sad, or whatever emotion you chose?”

Why do YOU care?

Except you don’t that. The entire problem is that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to know that. Which is why your argument is so dangerous.

Intent is intent, homie. You cannot change the intent, you can only misconstrue it.

Intent isn’t always relevant in communication.

There’s a reason that someone can have a “poor way with words” or give a “bad first impression”.

These are both skills that you have to learn.

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You can also miscommunicate your intent.

Edit

Either because you said something you didn’t mean to say, or because you failed to take into account the context of your actions such as etiquette, timing, etc.

Lul… I will stick to believing people asking for the time are asking for the time. If they wanted to steal my watch, maybe something a little less beta would be a good way to lead if you want to intimidate me and not get the time.

Beyond that, I was not even arguing otherwise. Intent is on one party. The second party cannot influence it. I am just laying some factual groundwork because these arguments are getting VERY abstract.

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And here’s the point where I stop taking the internet tough guy seriously.

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I want to start using that line in real life. Approach with my mean mug, point at my wrist and ask for what time that beautiful watch has to see if literally anyone vaguely thinks I am trying to steal it. So… Thanks for the idea.