How to "Flatten" Sym's Niche Without a "Rework"

[Yin-1797]

@lorenzo-11776

Is there a reason why we must conform to her current design?

Let’s throw away Hanzo’s bow and see if the character’s design kit and image is retained.

Blizzard likes to keep specific images and design goals in mind and won’t change them just to suit specific whims of the playerbase. That’s not the job of the players. If you’re going to that far to change up a character, you might as well just design a brand new one.

@lorenzo-11776

These buff suggestion are trying to make her more viable outside of her intended niche so that she would not be at a disadvantage on attack vs defense.

Then you have to look at what parts of her kit can be changed and what you’re willing to sacrifice in order for her to do that. You can’t remove abilities or change their nature, at best, you can make suggestions on improving responsiveness towards specific elements of her kit (lower cooldowns on Sentries). But you’re going to have to be willing to take a hit somewhere to make those changes.

Plenty of Bastion players are willing to lose damage out of Sentry in order to make Recon more viable. But Symmetra players seem unwilling to do that. And in OW2, Blizzard seems interested in giving Recon Bastion a new gun. That’s where your best hope is for Symmetra as that is the best time for a re-design; but don’t expect the concept of a hard-light builder to disappear come OW2. Or that she would become a Support-healer.

(Though on that note; don’t really be surprised by it either).

Look at how Baptiste players provided feedback on his gunplay to improve it to a more favorable and comfortable cadence. They were willing to take a hit in his damage and healing outputs to make work. That’s where your feedback needs to be; not trying to change the dynamic or the kit; but improving on existing elements.

Many Symmetra players are unwilling to do that.

[lorenzo-11776]

Sym has undergone several radical reworks so I don’t think another one is out of the question.

If we are working within the confines of her current kit then I would speed up the turret set up time and cool down. I want turrets to quickly snap to surfaces and activate. Like I would give them Zen’s orb speed of travel.

I would also lose the infinite TP and make it more responsive with a faster cast time and it would be up for only 5 seconds. Shoot I am willing to make TP as fragile as her turrets if need be.

[Star99er-1436]

Tbh she really doesn’t need a rework for OW2, they just need to speed up her kit and make it more consistent. Reduce some cooldowns, reduced weapons/abilities charge time, faster Secondary Fire projectile speed.

This is what makes her niche.

[Knighthood-21706]

@Zephrin-11143

Not with that attitude. Plus technically speaking we already do have niche heroes that are balanced. E.g. lucio has a clear niche of grouped up comps (obvs not as natrow as sym’s, but is still a jiche regardless) and he is well balanced overall.

Bringing up Lucio as an example for a balanced niche hero is a bit of a stretch, isn’t it?

@Zephrin-11143

I don’t see how because the overall logic there is that all balanced heroes, no matter what niche they have, should have a theoretical winrate of 50% when averaged across all situations (i.e. maps, matchups, team comp, etc.).

If her current like <1% pickratw supposedly indicates the portion of situations that are her niche and her winrate for that <1% situations is 55~65%, then it’s quite clear that her current average winrate across all situations is below 50%.

And in fact swapping is moreso a factor the inflates winrates —> more of a factor to show sym’s actual winrates are lower, so idk what point you were trying to go with that there.

Her low pickrate doesn’t only result from her being niche, but also being rather unpopular among most DPS players.

Also you can’t simply say that her winrate would theoretically be lower if people would pick her in situations where she is bad.

People don’t. That’s why her winrate is so high and why having heroes with an extremely high winrate in a narrow niche is a bad idea.

@Zephrin-11143

Now, that’s the kind if sustain that’s needed to get that uptime via pumping sustain into sym while she has 0 mobility (i e. If you take away tp). So, how do you think you can reasonably give that level of sustain through just a barrier on sym without making her OP or oppressive?

I never said that you simply slap a barrier on her and she is good to go.
She would obviously need additional fine tuning.

[Tobsi-21949]

@Yin-1797

Assuming you want something changed, you have to take in account of what Symmetra does and you have understand that changes have to come with those costs.

This is only true if the hero is already balanced or gets a huge buff that would resolve in the hero being overpowered. Neither of those are the case here.
An underperforming hero doesn’t need compensation nerfs to get one tiny buff. Because it’s not a buff then and the hero would be at the same power level as before. Maybe even weaker.

@Yin-1797

Symmetra is heavily geared towards area control and denial, this makes her more primed for defense than offense. Going in with Symmetra on attack runs is going to be a disadvantage

Yeah. That’s why Sym is only played on attack in OWL.

@Yin-1797

Symmetra has incredibly high damage, on par with or just slightly below Sentry Bastion.

False. The beam deals 180 at best which very similar to Soldier’s damage. On top that it has a lot of limitations such as short range, slow charge mechanic and no headshots.
The turrets CAN deal 120 DPS but in practice they are easily destroyed and have almost no value at all.

If you look at Overbuff you’ll notice Sym’s damage is very low and even some tanks outdamage her by a lot.

@Yin-1797

She has mid-ranged shot, charged shot, turrets that can slow and deal damage, she has close-ranged beam that charges up on barriers, and she has a teleporter to move her team around.

I will never understand why people start listing what a hero can do in theory when trying to argue against proposed buffs.
Yeah. We know what her abilities do. Thank your for telling us. Here’s a cookie.

@Yin-1797

It’s not going to happen when she’s capable of slowing better than Mei

Which is not the case. The slow is weak, turrets are stationary, can be destroyed very fast and have a long cooldown. Mei’s primary has an infinite uptime and the short range is the only limitation. How can you even think turrets are better at slowing than Mei’s primary?

@Yin-1797

Plenty of Bastion players are willing to lose damage out of Sentry in order to make Recon more viable. But Symmetra players seem unwilling to do that.

You’ve seem to miss all those “just get rid of tp/turrets and give her something else” posts.
And again: If a hero is underperforming there’s no need to “pay” for a buff.
Bastion mains are just desperate because they’ve been ignored since years.

[Zephrin-11143]

@Knighthood-21706

Bringing up Lucio as an example for a balanced niche hero is a bit of a stretch, isn’t it?

do explain how it is.

@Knighthood-21706

Her low pickrate doesn’t only result from her being niche, but also being rather unpopular among most DPS players.

how her pickrate spiked up in the early double shield meta days when people thought she was meta when not really.
people blatantly flexing on sym to team tp onto point on maps like hanamura A
how people flocked to brig and mercy in their respective metas despite being unpopular

like popularity is highly positively correlated with how strong the hero is. if we nerfed any of the current “popular” to be as bad at getting uptime themselves as sym, those heroes will easily become “unpopular”.

@Knighthood-21706

Also you can’t simply say that her winrate would theoretically be lower if people would pick her in situations where she is bad.

People don’t. That’s why her winrate is so high and why having heroes with an extremely high winrate in a narrow niche is a bad idea.

I’m saying her overall theoretical winrate would be bad.

if anyone has to try balance heroes with different niches etc., there has to be a base metric/baseline to compare with that’s applicable to all heroes regardless of their niche and how narrow it is.

a very very reasonable one is theoretical 50% winrate across all situations to ensure that hero kits simply aren’t dominated by weaknesses for nothing.

and if the hero’s niche is so narrow that it’s either unreasonable or impossible to proportionally have a higher winrate in niche for how narrow it is, then they have to widen that niche instead.

what I’ve argued before is that evidently her winrate within niche is not high enough to compensate how for how narrow her niche is —> that winrate is not an indication of her being fine nor being strong overall.

@Knighthood-21706

@Zephrin-11143

Now, that’s the kind if sustain that’s needed to get that uptime via pumping sustain into sym while she has 0 mobility (i e. If you take away tp). So, how do you think you can reasonably give that level of sustain through just a barrier on sym without making her OP or oppressive?

I never said that you simply slap a barrier on her and she is good to go.
She would obviously need additional fine tuning.

and part of the point I was making there is that for that to work, it’s not just some “fine tuning” that’d be needed to head that route, it’d be an extra overhaul.

[Knighthood-21706]

@Zephrin-11143

do explain how it is.

He obviously isn’t a true niche hero and therefore is a bad example and not representative for the point you are trying to make.
If you disagree with this, then we have very different ideas of what a niche hero is.

@Zephrin-11143

how her pickrate spiked up in the early double shield meta days when people thought she was meta when not really.
people blatantly flexing on sym to team tp onto point on maps like hanamura A
how people flocked to brig and mercy in their respective metas despite being unpopular

like popularity is highly positively correlated with how strong the hero is. if we nerfed any of the current “popular” to be as bad at getting uptime themselves as sym, those heroes will easily become “unpopular”.

For how strong she obviously is on certain maps, her pickrate is absolutely terrible.
DPS players mostly want to play hitscan or something flashy like Genji.
Also people don’t like to built the whole team comp and strategy around her to enable her full potential.

A 60% winrate on just 3 maps should easily get her above 2% pickrate, but the overwhelming majority of people simply don’t want to play her.

@Zephrin-11143

I’m saying her overall theoretical winrate would be bad.

Which is completely irrelevant.

@Zephrin-11143

what I’ve argued before is that evidently her winrate within niche is not high enough to compensate how for how narrow her niche is —> that winrate is not an indication of her being fine nor being strong overall.

So what do you think would be enough?
70%? 80%?

This really only proves my point.
She needs to lose what makes her niche, to get her out of it.

Also I never argued that she is fine.
She is plain and simply broken and in a terrible balance state.

@Zephrin-11143

and part of the point I was making there is that for that to work, it’s not just some “fine tuning” that’d be needed to head that route, it’d be an extra overhaul.

Reworking a hero is… work.
Who would have guessed?

[Yin-1797]

@Tobsi-21949

This is only true if the hero is already balanced or gets a huge buff that would resolve in the hero being overpowered. Neither of those are the case here.
An underperforming hero doesn’t need compensation nerfs to get one tiny buff. Because it’s not a buff then and the hero would be at the same power level as before. Maybe even weaker.

Depends on what you’re asking for. Reducing the cooldown on turrets doesn’t really require adjustments elsewhere.

@Tobsi-21949

Yeah. That’s why Sym is only played on attack in OWL.

Yeah, highly coordinated teams utilize her teleporter to break through defense lines. See how that works on less coordinated groups on ladder. You never know, it could work, but these players tend to go with what works best for them, and try to avoid too much experimentation.

@Tobsi-21949

False. The beam deals 180 at best which very similar to Soldier’s damage. On top that it has a lot of limitations such as short range, slow charge mechanic and no headshots.
The turrets CAN deal 120 DPS but in practice they are easily destroyed and have almost no value at all.

Each sentry does 40 damage per second and a 20% slow effect. Combined this is 120 damage and a 60% slow effect. Add in a level 1 beam and you’re dealing 180 damage per second. At level 2 this is 240 damage per second. At level 3 this is 300 damage per second with a 60% slow combined.

Sentries contribute value very easily. Even 1 second of Sentry damage has already contributed it’s total value and any longer its starts gaining more value than it’s normally worth. A sentry doesn’t gain value if it can’t do damage or slow the target, but if it does one or the other, it’s gaining value.

@Tobsi-21949

If you look at Overbuff you’ll notice Sym’s damage is very low and even some tanks outdamage her by a lot.

I believe Tracer is doing less damage than Symmetra, by 2k or 3k.

@Tobsi-21949

The slow is weak,

60% combined slow is still stronger than Mei. OW2 might change that, however.

@Tobsi-21949

turrets are stationary,

So is Torbjorn’s.

@Tobsi-21949

can be destroyed very fast and have a long cooldown.

Soldier can’t fire one shot to kill a turret, Neither can Genji, Tracer, Reaper, Moira, Orisa, Lucio, Baptiste and many more. Sentries have 30 health each, which means they require a fairly concentrated shot to eliminate. Melee strikes can eliminate, but Sentries can also be placed out of the reach of melee strikes.

And even should they be destroyed they are meant to be immediately replaceable, unlike Torbjorn’s turret.

@Tobsi-21949

You’ve seem to miss all those “just get rid of tp/turrets and give her something else” posts.

Blizzard isn’t willing to replace Sentries. Several reworks and re-toolings have proven this. Blizzard isn’t going to get rid of them.

In the case of Bastion, Bastion aren’t asking for the removal of anything in Bastion’s kit, they just want Recon to be better. They aren’t asking for the removal of abilities to fit in something else.

@lorenzo-11776

Sym has undergone several radical reworks so I don’t think another one is out of the question.

Define radical? Every change up has always kept the same builder philosophy to her design. Sentries and Teleporter never left her ability list.

@lorenzo-11776

If we are working within the confines of her current kit then I would speed up the turret set up time and cool down. I want turrets to quickly snap to surfaces and activate.

These would be a good suggestion. Faster arming Sentries would be nice.

@lorenzo-11776

I would also lose the infinite TP and make it more responsive with a faster cast time and it would be up for only 5 seconds. Shoot I am willing to make TP as fragile as her turrets if need be.

Teleporter is tricky. It allows certain units on to terrain not normally accessible to them; and it can be difficult to balance. Blizzard currently likes where teleporter sits at, but they can always change that. Current teleporter is pretty bulky; but I doubt they would be willing to make it as fragile as sentries. It’s something to think about.

[Zephrin-11143]

@Knighthood-21706

He obviously isn’t a true niche hero and therefore is a bad example and not representative for the point you are trying to make.
If you disagree with this, then we have very different ideas of what a niche hero is.

niche - noun
a specialized segment of the market for a particular kind of product or service.

niche does not mean “only good at this 1 very very very very very specific thing”. it means you’re good at SOME thing (S) , not necessarily a very small amount of things. and not necessarily needing to be terrible at everything else either.

a large majority of the heroes rn have a niche. widow’s niche is long range burst. lucio, bap and moira’s are grouped up comps. mercy’s, zen’s and ana’s are more spread out comps. rein’s niche are more brawl-like comps. etc.

just because their niches aren’t as paper thin narrow as sym’s, doesn’t mean they don’t have a niche.
and many of them are defs atm balanced much better than sym’s degree of nicheness.

@Knighthood-21706

For how strong she obviously is on certain maps, her pickrate is absolutely terrible.
DPS players mostly want to play hitscan or something flashy like Genji.

ah yes because sym “not having something to make a flashy play in her kit” totally isn’t a symptom of a kit being ed /s

I wonder if genji would still have “something flashy” if they balanced his projectiles, burst and mobility like sym’s (he wouldn’t)

@Knighthood-21706

Also people don’t like to built the whole team comp and strategy around her to enable her full potential.
A 60% winrate on just 3 maps should easily get her above 2% pickrate, but the overwhelming majority of people simply don’t want to play her.

I find it amazing how you don’t see how 55%~60% winrate obviously isn’t proportionally high enough to compensate how narrow a niche of needing

• a very specific comp
• a very specific map
• a very specific strategy that’s solely built around enabling her

all of which, if you haven’t noticed, are really low in frequency (i.e. a very small portion of the game/situations), and how bad she is outside of that really small slice of the game for anyone to actually consider her remotely fine.

like

overall theoretical winrate = 2% of game (niche portion) x 60% winrate in niche + 98% non-niche x Winrate out of niche

To be balanced of overall theoretical winrate = 50%, that means

Winrate out of niche = (50% - 2% x 60% winrate in niche) / 98% = 49.8% approx.

but can you honestly tell me that her theoretical winrate out of niche atm is remotely close to 49.8% to be balanced/fine?
because a winrate of 49.8% for 98% of the game is a winrate that’s more for a generalist than a niche hero and she quite obviously is not a generalist atm.

@Knighthood-21706

So what do you think would be enough?
70%? 80%?

This really only proves my point.
She needs to lose what makes her niche, to get her out of it.

yes, if you want to widen a niche, you generally have to give up some power in niche to spread it out.
BUT that’s not sym’s situation rn as shown from the math above, her overall power simply isn’t up to par atm. —> she absolutely still needs a net buff.

also

@Zephrin-11143

well here’s the beauty of the changes I suggested.
little of what I suggested buffs team tps, w+m1 nor her turrets.
i.e. if you want to “protect the [sym] president” w+m1 with team tps like owl, pretty much none of the benefits of the suggests meaningfully help that.

orbs changes make them better in longer range than primary and if you want those benefits, you’re not w+m1’ing. like the team pocket w+m1 that OWL does leave little need to benefit from ranged orbs as their strat is to get up in the enemy’s face quick and brawl there.

if you want to team tp, the immediate interation for tp isn’t beneficial at all (in fact is moreso suicide if they do try to interact before the team for the typical team tp strats).

if you’re team tping and playing “escort the president”, there’s little opportunity for sym to use tp for herself.

if you are orbing, you’re not m1’ing.
if you’re tping for yourself more selfishly, you’re highly unlikely to be doing tp strats.

@Knighthood-21706

@Zephrin-11143

and part of the point I was making there is that for that to work, it’s not just some “fine tuning” that’d be needed to head that route, it’d be an extra overhaul.

Reworking a hero is… work.
Who would have guessed?

except as shown above: a rework simply isn’t necessary.
and that other route simply is running more risk of failure for little reason or extra gain.