How Mass rez was more fun than now and if it was even healthy

General Discussion
1

Mass Rez is more fun than Valkyrie now for a lot of people because, Mass resurrect gave the player a whole new ability they can play with and have to think about. Valkyrie now is just Mercy’s basic kit, but makes it 10 times easier to play her. If any version of Mercy was more braindead it would be the current version on live.

Mass Rez being healthy is a very controversial topic, where I don’t think that there is an easy yes or no answer. So lets get started!

Lets start with this:

Mass Rez punished bad team play.

"No! It just erased a team wipe that used ultimates."

A team should be able to keep track of their own and the enemy team’s ults, especially if they have a Mercy. If the enemy blows all of their ults into one team wipe without leaving anything to wipe a mass rez then the fault would fall on to the enemy ult economy.

"Mercy would just hide and mass rez when her team died every time."

The amount if times a Mercy would hide and rez is greatly over exaggerated. The Average amount of resurrects with Mercy pre-rework was about 6. If a Mercy would hide and rez everytime and let her whole team die than at the end of each match should have an average of about 15 if she did get a 5x rez each time she had it up. (I got the average number of resurrects from an old forum post where the number was not disputed so I’m assuming it is accurate.)

Not to mention that the SR exploit heavily encouraged people to hide for a big rez.

Back to huge rez’s not being that common:

"If it was not so common how come streamers always told Mercy’s to hide?!"

This is not so hard to answer. When you remember that Mercy’s were being able to climb up in rank extremely fast from the sr exploit, a good amount of Mercy’s in high ranks probably reached that rank from hiding, so the streamer thinks: “oh that Mercy just hide to get here, so it must be the only thing they can do well.” Streamers probably assumed that most Mercy’s in high ranks got there by the sr exploit, (which some may have.) But not all did.

"Mass Rez had no counters!"

Sure, there weren’t direct counters to it like how a ana nade can ruin well timed trans, or emp can ruin a lucio ult, but there were still effective ways to ruin a beautifully big resurrect.

To list some:

Deadeye: Deadeye had the ability to lock onto the enemy, even if they were invincible, so a Mccree could charge up his deadeye on the enemies that had just been rezed because he can charge it through the I-frames and they were unable to move.

Blizzard: They reworked her, lol jk. But it is an aoe cc that could also ruin rez by freezing or slowing down the resurrected allies so it is easier to hit them.

Earth Shatter: Like Blizzard is cc in the form of an aoe cone. Because recently resurrected enemies couldn’t move, a well timed earth shatter can completely catch someone off guard and win the fight again.

Basically what I am getting at is resurrected enemies are back from the dead, but are all scattered over the place and not in a good position to get back any momentum that they had before the resurrect, where as the team against Mercy, still has their momentum from their fight.

"It’s not fun to play against mass rez."

You are not supposed to have fun against an enemy ultimate, they are made to be strong and impactful, unlike how Valkyrie is now. It might just be me, but I don’t have fun getting sat on by genji blading (but Mercy probably would love for Genji to sit on her face. :wink: ) I don’t have fun against a soldier who presses Q and gets aim bot. I am sorry if you don’t understand, but how fun it is to play against an enemy ultimate should not be a priority at all. But you know what should? If the person using the ultimate finds it fun.

Jesus that took a lot of time to type.strong text

45 Likes
2

Too bad the moment people read “Mercy” here they get PTSD of one time they got counter-rezzed and instantly dismiss everything said.

Its not like we have to deal with a RIP-Tire always blowing on our faces, Tech-Visors vaporizing us before we can find cover, same with Dead-Eye, and the list goes on. That isn’t frustrating at all…

19 Likes
3

Mercy is boring as hell.

Wish she wasn’t, but it is time to accept that they will never change this.

5 Likes
4

There were no effective counters, only half-measures to try and recover from her Mass Rez after the damage had already been done. This alone explains why it was a problem and why it needed to be reworked.

I do not understand why some people find this such a difficult concept to grasp.

11 Likes
5

with mercy’s charge rate mass rez was NEVER healthy, it brought the game to a screeching halt in even matches and i’ve been in a couple wars were both mercys kept popping of resses every minute making offense lose majority of the time, it was kinda fun like how anas meta was just a mosh pit of tanks and tank busters smaking eachother in the face with hammers, bombs, bullets, and a beam but it was unhealthy and gave any defense a huge advantage as time is on their side. Mass ress did this except it was ignored for several months whereas ana’s deathball lasted about 3 weeks 5 weeks tops.

If mass rez ever returns mercy will still need a significant drop to her charge rate otherwise nothings changed, valk 2.0 or 3.0 whatever the current one is called just brings mercy’s rez back from why mass rez was buffed to begin with; she had no survivability when casting, the 75 reduction to movement was bs and we all know it the short radius is enough don’t slap a “kill me” sign on her back just because you did a horrible job at balancing and people called you out on that.

5 Likes
6

Absolutely true. It was possible to charge Mercy’s ult in like 33? seconds.

That being said, those chaotic “rez wars” were incredibly fun… I remember having a Total Mayhem match that was almost an hour long and we all just agreed to stop lmao

1 Like
7

dang 45 minutes was my longest and that was mostly just two winstons having a literal slap fight on the hollywood A point

8

I appreciate the effort you put into this thread.

My perspective is that Resurrect can work. It can and did work. There were two changes that did a lot to put Mercy over the top. 1) Passive regeneration changed from 3 seconds to 1 second. 2) Invulnerability when resurrecting. Prior to these changes, Mercy was a bad pick for a healer since she usually died to even get her ult off, making Lucio, Zenyatta and even Ana all better and more useful picks at times.

So what should happen? I think it would be cool to experiment with different iterations of Mercy and Resurrect. One could be vanilla Mercy with Resurrect Ultimate on an adjusted charge rate of course. (No invulnerability) One could be Mercy with Resurrect that requires a line of sight to successfully activate, etc. Of course, the problem is that Mercy would now be without an ability which is part of what the rework set out to fix in the first place. But y’know…

1 Like
9

Both teams had a good Mercy, so anytime anyone died, both me and the enemy Mercy always had rez. I spent half the match being chased by a Winston that kept yelling at me to just stay still so he could be done with the match lol

Eventually it got to like 56? ish minutes and everyone was like “…okay, this is ridiculous” and we just waved at each other. We got a metric crap ton of exp and it’s still one of my fave matches I’ve ever played despite how drawn out it was lol

10

But what about as a teammate? Why should I die for no reason other than to get rezzed?

Also, i like that after a whole year of debating about Mercy the conversation has NOT advanced and the same bad things are used as arguments. Just couple of days ago i saw again “The Reaper ultimate argument”.

No wonder why people are tired about Mercy threads. The disscusion hasn’t advanced even after an year.

5 Likes
11

The counter was simply not stacking all your ults into a fight without killing the Mercy. There’s also a ton more CC in the game than there was before to stop her from rezing. Most “revert”/rework ideas also include adding more direct counterplay, including a line of sight restriction. Mercy was mostly fine before the rework, she just needed tweaks.

12

You don’t? If you’re dying “for no reason other than to get rezzed”, then you/your Mercy aren’t using rez well.

It’s hard to advance a discussion when only one side is willing to discuss.

1 Like
13

well put simply it’s different people, and most of what was discussed was archived when the new forums came out, most of those that discussed to death other methods had nothing more to say to the brick wall that has been the devs on the subject, at this point it’s a smaller amount of people acting like broken records hoping to get it fixed.

The devs made it clear they won’t touch her ultimates and abilities for a while if at all, the last change was reverting her healing from 60hp to 50hp making it even more dps watch as tanks are harder to keep around even in high tier there’s a need to have a rien around but only for a now slight advantage in covering fire.

Torbs getting a rework I think I hear whispers of rien getting a full rework and not just his ult, and after that Doomfist will get a rework because no actual reasons we just want to work on what’s fun and not actually balance the game or anything.

So yeah maybe in a year there will be a comment in an off-handed post about “possibly” looking into mercy again but other than that mercy’s updates are done save for minor adjustments (and to anyone attempting to start giving me crap about how a 10 hps is not minor, it is, it’s a small change with big consequences those things can happen don’t act like all changes are the biggest changes 3var)

14

Mass Rez will never be healthy for this game. Not only does it make Mercy the number 1 target at all times (which should never be the case for any hero) she’ll also go back to oppressing the entire support class.

I can go on and on etc so no thx it can stay gone

2 Likes
15

Except Mercy never “oppressed” any other support when she had mass rez.

3 Likes
16

“The counter was simply not stacking all your ults into a fight without killing the Mercy”

I think this is really bad game design and highlights one of the core problems I had with her ultimate. Just because a team failed to kill a Mercy shouldn’t mean that all of their work should just be negated. In almost any other scenario I can think of, killing 5/6 of the enemy combatants all but secures that particular team fight (there are always exceptions, but those are unlikely to occur). I can’t think of any other Hero that has that kind of power in the game without any kind of massive weakness that can be exploited.

“There’s also a ton more CC in the game than there was before to stop her from rezing.”

This would not make a difference because Mass Rez (as it was previously implemented, at least) was a “fire and forget” instant-cast ability that offered invulnerability when used. There’s no counter to something like this minus pre-preemptively killing Mercy before she can hit “Q” on her keyboard, and that’s incredibly unfair for the opposing team.

“Most “revert”/rework ideas also include adding more direct counterplay, including a line of sight restriction.”

Line of sight is a good idea, but not nearly enough. The only way to balance an ability as powerful as Mass Rez, in my opinion, are as follows:

  1. Rez has a cast time (similar to the way it is in Live) - possibly the cast time varies depending on how many people are going to be brought back.

  2. Rez can be interrupted when being cast, which shuts down the ability.

  3. Rez must be line-of-sight (as you suggest above)

  4. Rez non longer offers invincibility to Mercy

Though in all reality, the only changes I think would be necessary are removing invulnerability and adding a standard cast time to offer some viable counterplay.

4 Likes
17

D.va can block multiple ultimates outright, to the point where it’s usually not worth using them until you demech her. Zen and Lucio can negate many ults with their ults, again, to the point where most people wait until they’re able to kill them or bait out their ults.

You can CC her before she’s able to rez and kill her. Regardless, like I said, most ideas involve adding more direct counterplay anyways, like removing invuln and adding a LoS restriction and possibly a cast time.

18

It’s almost as if we don’t want a full revert. :face_with_monocle:

1 Like
19

“No reason”. I really don’t want to believe that.

20

You don’t need mass rez or any ult to punish poor ult usage, they would already be behind in economy. The exception is closing out a map, and the economic effects of rez would only matter if your team was doing particularly badly.

Then there’s no need for mass rez if tempo rez is not only sufficient, but better in nearly every scenario. If anything, leaving mass rez in the game is counterintuitive to optimal Mercy gameplay.

The most effective was to send a flanker and hope they got lucky and covered the right angle of approach or checked the right corner, sometimes twice per fight. Mass rez was centralizing and excessively deterministic.

A fast and fluid ult-linked tempo rez makes sense. Mass rez does not.

2 Likes