Hard to say. All I want to do is test these changes, I never claimed they’re 100% balanced. But, I do think if Sym got a 15m beam that 180DPS at level 3 would be too much.
If we somehow end up trying this on experimental & her beam isn’t dealing enough damage, I’m totally open to buffing it. But in my mind 180dps would be overkill. 100 charge Zarya doesn’t even do that much & she melts people. Even at 80 charge (where Zarya is dealing around the same damage I’m suggesting Sym should have, 150) Zarya melts people. Sym would too. And on top of that Sym still has her turrets to add to her damage.
It’s also worth noting that there are 0 healers that can heal 150HP/s, not even Moira (she heals 135hp/s with both Primary & her orb) so just to even try to keep their ally alive they would have to dump all of their resources into them.
I can honestly imagine Sym being great with a 15m beam even with reduced damage. There have been countless times where I was just out of range to finish someone off. I would like to end that lol.
Dont try it this guy is a walking contradiction, he thinks that Sym having the same range that a hero with triple the survivability that her will somehow break her, even if Sym mains tell him that wont happen at all.
Why would you nerf her damage though? Especially when she already struggles to use her primary in a consistent way. The heck. Did you play her right after 3.0 launched? Her primary was so bad,people resorted to using orbs instead for consistent damage. And no doubt the same would happen with your changes.
I’d understand the damage nerf if the range increased and the time required to charge up decreased. But even those reasons are hardly justified. She’s supposed to be a Damage dealing hero.
Besides,if Zarya can have twice the HP Sym does,ways to protect herself and her teammates,which also act as beam chargers and a strong ult while being meta most of the time and being considered balanced by most of the community,then I’m sure giving buffs to Sym without any “compensation” nerfs will be alright.
Her TTK is lowerst to all other dps unless she can precharge her beam, upon which its above like… Mei or Sombra at best, since 180 is still just the dps of soldier bodyshots.
Thats not counting that she has no other real damage sources, no damage ultimate to fall back on, and destroyable sentries.
True but I remember people using her primary even less than nowadays.
Still.
They either need to increase the speed of her orbs or just remove the charging mechanic and make her do a fixed amount of damage.
But why do I bother,we’ve been asking Blizz for over a year at this point and they’re like Symmetra whomst. “We constantly discuss Sym,but she’s not our highest priority.”
Refer to my comment just a couple above yours, I answer this question.
She will be dealing less damage within 12m, yes, but she will be dealing 150DPS from 12m->15m where she deals 0 now. You lose some damage in the short range, but you get a huge damage buff at a range you previously dealt zero. I also suggest buffing her orb damage back to 140 which is what you would probably use in closer range anyways.
I’ve addressed this already.
Let me ask you. Does Zarya deal a lot of damage with her beam? I would think you would say yes. A followup question I would ask is, how much of the time is Zarya at exactly 100 charge? Not often, and not consistently. I think we can both agree that Zarya is more often floating around 80 charge or so. I didn’t do the math but you’re more than welcome to, I think she deals around 150dps at 80 charge. 150dps is nothing to scoff at. With no other damage involved, Symmetra would kill 200hp heroes in just 1.33s. That doesn’t include help from a turret or two, or three.
Even with my proposed damage nerfs to her level 2 & level 3 charge, she would be dealing damage at a range she previously didn’t. The value of that is incomparable. Also keep in mind she will be reaching level 2 & level 3 sooner than she does on live because she can charge from further away, so aside from long teamfights where you’re within 12m at Level 3 you’re going to be dealing more damage, not less. If the enemy goes out of that 12m range you’ll still be dealing 150dps where as of right now you deal 0
You know that what you are describing is basically her orb effective range already right. Lower damage for a bit more range doesnt do anything because she is still a close range hero with lower range, survivability AND burst that any other close range hero.
Your idea is worthless and you have Sym mains telling you left and right that an extra 3m doesnt do anything because of many, many factors, and yet you are being nothing but an obnoxious idiot and disregarding the words of the people that actually know the hero completly.
Her orb is relatively easy to dodge at 15m. Her orb is meant to be her close range burst tool. Her beam should be used for consistent damage at a further range.
Thanks for the respectful input bud. Just trying to make Symmetra a better hero
15m is bigger than 12m and is definitely closer to mid ranged. Close range is 10m. It sounds like the only gripe you have is that I think her damage would need to be nerfed…
You’re being a bit toxic. You must have missed the part where I said I’d be open to buffing her damage if 150 at level 3 proves to be too low… take a chill pill. I simply want to try these changes on experimental…what is so wrong about that?
No, the issue is that 15m is a change that has no value in realistic scenarios. The fact that you are comparing Sym to Zarya yet fail to understand that Zarya has triple the survivability of Sym and thats why her beam works is nothing short of absurd and short sighted.
You buff her beam to 15m with other change and all you get is a Zarya that dies triple as fast in close range.
I have no pacience for hard headed idiots who think they know what Sym needs while ignoring any feedback from actual Sym mains with insane troll logic or outright denying basic facts.
Buffing her beam to 15m does very little because every hero in the game that isnt Reinhardt can still hit her no defensives/mobility 200hp giant hitbox for full damage from that range, which is literally the biggest issue with Sym right now, living through all her delays.
A minimal range buff only accomplishes a better advantage against the only good match Sym has right now, lone Reinhardts.
I lived with 120 lock on beam, the damage isnt the issue, its her ability to live through which the 3.0 nerfwork removed.
I think it would have a lot of value in realistic scenarios. I’ve even given specific examples. There have been countless times where if I literally had 1-3m more range I would have confirmed a kill. You can also poke & pressure from further away.
But, just 1 specific realistic example I can give is vs. Zarya. Currently, Zarya can beam Sym to death without Symmetra being able to do anything to deter her. With a matching beam length Symmetra would most definitely scare off Zarya more often dealing 150dps instead of 0. Without any help from teammates or turrets, level 3 charge Sym would kill Zarya in 2.66 seconds, compared to infinity on live because Zar is out of Sym’s range.
But that’s the thing. I’m not comparing the heroes. I’m simply saying that Symmetra would be able to contest Zarya if they have the same length beam. Zarya would no longer be able to kill Symmetra without consequences. Instead of taking 0DPS from Sym, she would take 150DPS. Don’t you see the benefit of that interaction?
You’re the one comparing Zarya & Sym as if they have the same responsibilities & playsyle. They don’t.
Zarya needs her healthpool & self bubble because she’s a tank & it’s her job to press W, take damage & create space for her team.
Symmetras job is not to take damage for her team, it’s to deal damage. So please, stop equating the 2.
Isn’t it harder to hit a hero from further away? Also, don’t other close range heroes deal less damage the further away you are? (Reaper/Tracer for example)
I’m puzzled as to why you can’t see how more range will give Sym more survivability.
Not true. It helps massively against Zarya. It helps vs. pretty much the entire cast except heroes like Winston who will just dive her. More effective range is always a good thing.
as said various times, tp too unavailable to flank a lot of the time (which you’re not addressing btw), so high reliance on “following” frontline (zarya as you say) for most of her match time.
but if the frontline is playing at 15m, how will a 15m range sym get in range AND follow the frontline? OH WAIT SHE CAN’T.
and momentarily stepping in front won’t work because her weapon demands longer prolonged use and she doesn’t have the sustain to do so.
hmm, doesn’t that sound like she’s still going to be really team dependent, niche and have really long down times just like now?
hence my point of why sym, if having her gameplay centered around primary that’s also in the same range or less than zarya’s beam, needing tank like sustain. you admitted yourself zarya needing that sustain to be in that range to damage.
IT. IS. TOO. UNAVAILABLE. TO. USE. TP. A. LOT. OF. THE. TIME. WHEN. YOU. WANT. TO. AS. SYM. BECAUSE. OF. HOW ITS. CURRENT. CD. MECHANIC. IS.
And neither are you fixing that so saying “you can just flank” isn’t an argument you can make.
again:
and you yourself agree how orbs jave a short effective range, so what uptime options does that leave sym? oh right the “following tanks for primary” aka being team pocketed to primary
which then leads back my above argument of how this isn’t changing the status quo, how this is propping up w+m1, and how little this change really matters.
how often can sym reach in 15m without team pocketing? how long does she stay in those instances?
answers: not often without tp and even with tp, she doesn’t stay long anyways because of her lack of sustain vs how much time her primary demands her to stay to get value out of it let alone the consideration of charging it up.
> I want to keep orbs (potential ranged option) having a short effective range
> I also want to keep tp (mobility) being so unavailable for engagements
> I want to buff primary, the thing she currently relies a lot on now due to the previous 2 options being taken out most of the match time, to be used more
> but sym is also not meant to be beaking around then frontline like a zarya despite keeping the lack of other options and despite how the weapon fires function very similar and thus having very similar pre-conditions/demands for use.
> “I never said that”
…
again, being more flexible or versatile or simply being better is not the same as having uniformly distributed time spent across all elements of her kit.
each kit element has their own preconditions of use and guess which one has the most preconditions? primary. why? because the sustain it demands from both charge up and its hard cutoff for range being that low for usage that isn’t simply being a finisher.
her primary is inherently a very situational weapon fire and the fact that sym is intended to be a squishy further entrenches the notion that sym inherently isn’t supposed to be using primary much in her gameplay.
15m isn’t going to change that sustain demand which’d still need to rely a lot on team pocketing to use primary outside of as a finisher, hence still not used much.
why sym is having problem rn isn’t even because sym isn’t using primary enough, but rather how she can’t get in her own effective range enough on her own nor neither having the sustain nor burst to have a reasonable balance between how long she can stay in effective range vs how long she needs to spend there to get something done.
i.e. a complete rework of her primary, e.g. change it to be a hitscan weapon rather than a beam, if tou want her to be spend a lot of time using primary.
pick a disposition and stick with it please.
zarya has the sustain to support that weapon fire and to also make that 150dps be enough to be considered “high damage”.
here’s an example of what I mean: winston’s 60dps or rein’s 75 damage per swing (with a bit faster than 1 swing per second) is legit trash when put on any of the dps heroes, but on winston or rein respectively, not so unreasonable and is threatening, why? because they’ve got high sustain so that they can outlive their opponents with them despite the lower dps, i.e. ttk on them is much higher due to their sustain compared to their ttk on the squishier opponents.
this is the 2nd problem I’ve been saying is a problem for sym: amount of time she needs to spend to do something in her effective range doesn’t match how much time she has due to low sustain and her burst option being locked away most if the match time.
why else do you think there’s a trend in flankers in that they have burst for despite being squishier, and more mobile despite being shorter ranged?
I disagree with your premise that TP is too unavailable to flank. If you’re talking about flanking every 5 seconds, yea, you can’t do that. But it only has a 10 second cooldown. I flank with Sym often.
What do you mean? If the frontline is 15m away from the enemy then Sym is in range to M1. Also…Sym can push forward past the frontline depending on the situation. Please stop acting like there is only one possible scenario. There are so many moving parts in Overwatch.
You don’t speak for everyone. As it is with a 12m beam I frequently step in front as long as I know I can get back safely or that my team can help me do so.
No because instead of having to be within 12m of the enemy she can be 15m away. That changes a lot
But your point isn’t proven by any stretch, and Sym wouldn’t be centered around her primary, it would simply be a better way for her to have consistent damage compared to now. Her orbs would still be her close range burst tool, but her beam would be her mid-ish range damage source
No. You’re misrepresenting what I’m saying and I’m starting to get tired of the conversation because of it.
I said Zarya needs tank like sustain because she’s a tank. It is Zaryas job to take damage for her team. Symmetra is not a tank & does not need tank like sustain because it is not her job to take damage for the team. Zarya is played much more aggressively than Symmetra because they have different responsibilities. Symmetra uses her TP & turrets to pick fights that she wants to. Zarya just brute forces her way forward. 2 totally different heroes, and I’m not sure why you insist on equating them.
That’s your opinion. 10 seconds is not a long time to wait.
Nope. I gave a specific example of why this isn’t the case, you’re just ignoring it.
Her orbs would remain her close range burst tool, her beam with a longer range would be her way to deal consistent damage. You can follow your tanks, sure. Or you can flank. You don’t even need TP to flank every time either. There is such a thing called an off angle. Eichenwalde for example, most people on defense hold left side, but Sym can hold the right angle/room and force the attackers into a pick your poison scenario. Sym could have a TP ready to go back to point if they decide to push her. You don’t always have to be in the backline to flank.
Pretty often & it depends.
Maybe that’s your experience. It’s not mine. I just gave a specific example on Eichenwalde where you don’t need a team pocket. There are plenty others. Sym can hold her own quite well when played properly
Yes, I want to keep her orbs as her burst tool, whether that means up close because she’s likely to hit it, or shooting them down range.
No, I don’t want to “keep tp unavailable”… 10 seconds is not a long time… it’s like you want TP up every 5 seconds…that would be crazy.
I want to change primary because currently it’s very strong but puts Symmetra in a range where she is likely to take a lot of damage. I would like to extend her range so she doesn’t have to be so directly in the fight to contribute to it. And I have no idea what you’re talking about with orbs & TP. Again, you’re misrepresenting my argument. It’s impossible to have a discussion if you don’t actually read what I’m saying.
No idea what you’re saying here.
Yep. I never said
Because as I’ve said several times now (and I’m getting really tired of repeating myself) I want her to be well rounded. I want her beam to be a consistent damage tool at mid-ish range & I want her orb to remain as her close range burst tool & shooting down range tool. It is not hard to understand if you would just read…
Do you know why? Because it lacks range… she has to be too close to the fight to contribute
It’s almost like more range would help with that Weird thought.
It’s easier to get within 15m than it is to get within 12m
I have been so clear you just are incapable of reading without projecting your own thoughts of what you think I’m saying… Zarya spends a good amount of time beaming within 15m. Zarya does not just W+M1 all game. Her secondary is a very strong tool depending on the situation…
Seriously, how hard is this to grasp? I think I’m about done here. Repeating myself is becoming obnoxious.
You can keep jumping back to Zarya’s sustain but it is irrelevant. 150DPS Sym with a 15m beam is nothing to scoff at.
Yes. Sym starts at 60, Zarya starts at 90. However on live, Symmetra deals 0 damage to Zarya outside of 12m where Zarya can beam her for free. With my suggestions Symmetra will be able to fight back.
Right, that’s the issue. You have to use an ability meant for close range to hit targets at mid range because her beam range is too short. Instead of shooting an orb for 120 damage with a good chance to miss if the Zarya is competent, why not just track her with your beam & deal 150dps? The choice is obvious to me
ITS. CURRENT. CD. MECHANIC. IS.
Weird thought.
I think I’m about done here. Repeating myself is becoming obnoxious.