I think it’s more so that MR heroes fit into traditional roles. Supports for example can’t really 1v1 or consistently force dps to escape via dmg. In OW2 I can play kiri and dink a Tracer forcing her to recall. Can’t really do that in MR and even for the heroes who can they have other downsides that come along with being more self sufficient.
Tell that to Hawkeye players.
Depends on the dps.
Cloak can very consistently make divers back away. Same with Sue and Mantis.
But also I agree that supports in MR are more vulnerable in a 1v1… because they arent forced to be balanced around 1v1s like in OW. In OW, the devs didnt push for the DPS players to pick up the slack when it came to peeling, and did the opposite actually. In MR, the devs intentionally designed DPS who are really good at dealing with mobile threats.
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Very true. I know a few sym mains who really enjoy namor because he fits a similar niche as sym. That dps who can really zone out an area but he feels pretty balanced too.
Oh and it seems like netease doesn’t hate namor like blizz hates sym lol.
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Because none of them, to my knowledge, actually have healing on weapons, for starters.
But Overwatch has always been obsessed with healing. They took the whole ‘Overwatch needs more healers’ from OW1’s launch of 3 Utility Supports and a Healer a little too far. Post OW1 launch, near every added Support has been a Healer, all of whom have healing abilities and healing on their weapons. We’ve had one Utility Support since OW1 launched, and that was sodding Lifeweaver. 7 entire years after the game first came out.
Healing has been a problem since they introduced Moira. That’s where we should’ve gotten the first post-launch Utility Support. But no, we then got Brig, then Bap and then Kiri (Yes, we had that few Supports) before finally getting Lifeweaver, just to get two more Supports in Iliari and Juno that also have healing coming out the wazoo.
It needs to stop.
I’ve thought a lot about this. The healing in rivals is way stronger than in overwatch- but it doesn’t feel anywhere near as bad (outside their ultimates. I do feel they need at a minimum, a nerf to their ultimate charge rate)
And I think the reason, at least for me, is engagement / interaction time.
In rivals a lot of characters can consistently interact with the healers for longer times. Especially when we look at the melee based flankers, the overwhelming majority all have one thing in common; some form of sustain. They all build shields / over health (except for spider man excluding his ult, but his mobility is the highest in the game instead). Black panther, magik, Psy, etc - these characters can come in and distract / interact with the healers- which provides windows for their team to interact with opponents who have windows of reduced healing.
In overwatch, the interaction time is MUCH smaller. The flankers have “get out of jail cards”, but lack the sustain options that they have in rivals. And supports in overwatch have a lot of tools in their kit that let them kill flankers in the blink of an eye.
In overwatch you’ll often try, get instantly denied, and then have to use your get out of jail card and wait for cooldowns to try again or die instantly.
On top of that a lot of supports in overwatch have AoE healing, so even if you “distract them”, you may not really disrupt their healing. Take briggs for example - interact with and distract her and what happens? She has an easy to hit cleave that procs healing for everyone around her. Not only do you not really disrupt her healing, you straight up enable it.
Healers are extremely strong in rivals. They’re often strong in duels as well - but you can actually interact with and occupy them.
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Really? Everyone is getting 2 shotted and you think TTK isn’t low?
This is a really simplified, or reductionist argument, but it isn’t wrong.
It isn’t that the MR Duelists do more damage, rather, they’re easier to play relative to the rest of the roles. Going from someone like Starlord to Rocket Raccoon, to Doctor Strange and you’ll find the same sort of skill curve consistency between all of them. Likewise, many heroes in MR are more consistently easier to play overall, in the Damage-role compared to choices offered in Overwatch.
For beginner friendly Damage-role heroes in Overwatch, you have Soldier, Reaper, and Bastion. In MR, you’ll have Starlord, Psylocke, Punisher, Moon Knight, and (debatable) Hela.
Now granted, Overwatch heroes tend to be a bit more involved and nuanced than MR’s roster, which is far more straightforward. That said, a hero like Black Panther would certainly find themselves at home with Overwatch’s roster with his design nuances.
This is actually false. Ashe has always had a more lethal (in terms of numbers) dynamite than Biotic Grenade. 100 damage per target over 5 seconds with an up to 50 damage explosion over 5 meters is still better than Biotic Grenade’s (original) 100 damage/healing over 4 meters.
With that said… Ana’s Biotic Grenade doesn’t have damage or healing falloff, and the debuffing/buffing effects are still stronger than Burn… for a number of reasons. So there is a good argument there to say that Ana’s Biotic Grenade is a better choice over Ashe’s dynamite.
He doesn’t; but he does provide a stronger critical hit burst than what Hanzo could do in the same time period. Whereas Hanzo could hit up to 250 damage (originally), Zenyatta could easily top above 300 without Discord.
She’s not; while Tanks can be pretty lethal, they’re all fairly consistent with their burst damage totals. Any competent and attentive healer can prevent her from getting a kill; even against Rampage (which is why it is required that the team follow-up on Junker Queen’s ultimate to maximize its damage setups).
Luna Snow’s aiming requirements are even more forgiving than any Support’s in Overwatch.
Baptiste should be compared to Rocket Raccoon, as they are functionally very similar in design with Rocket being quite a bit more forgiving.
According to public stats, the triple Support line-up isn’t really dominating any particular bracket, but at more organized and pro-play, it is seeing a fair amount of stalling through the technique to mention.
You’re 100% correct, but… players have been making comparisons like these for decades. You’d often get debates about CRPGS and JRPGS all the time; so this isn’t really that unusual.
Yeah that’s really going to depend on your skill level, as I generally don’t have trouble knocking back a dive attempt on me as Loki, Mantis or IW.
This is actually wrong. Overwatch 1 didn’t actually have a clear vision for what they wanted Supports to be in during OW1’s beta. Towards the end of the final beta, they pretty much stated that future Support-role heroes would be healers, and that would be their primary job.
They even re-oriented some heroes, like Sombra, away from the Support-role in order to solidify this goal.
MR is just slower-paced in general over Overwatch.
You never noticed this in Overwatch with the original 250 health heroes like Mei, Reaper Doomfist, or Torbjorn who all had “sustaining abilities” as part of the CQC fighting styles? Even the newest CQC hero Venture, has elements of this.
This should’ve been pretty obvious as far back as OW1’s second year.
Most of the flankers Overwatch are built as glass-cannons with combos set-up for burst damage. As pointed out many times before on the official website…
Damage heroes seek out, engage, and obliterate the enemy with wide-ranging tools, abilities, and play styles. Fearsome but fragile, these heroes require backup to survive.
It is intentional that the Damage-role is dependent on their Supports to do their job.
Also, most Supports don’t really kill Damage-role heroes in a “blink of an eye”; rather, some of them have very specific combinations of abilities that could be used to eliminate a potential attempt. Such as Sleep Dart, Biotic Grenade, primary fire then melee, combo to kill. That uses up all of Ana’s cooldowns and she won’t be able to do that again for several seconds. So, yeah, it is lethal, but that much cooldown and ability use to guarantee a kill is justified and does leave Ana open to another dive attempt.
Just like Kiriko requires (or required) two headshots to make a kill against someone attacking her. There’s a bit of skill element here… even if that element is far less… demanding than the attacker against Kiriko has (alternatively, Swiftstep which is, yeah, not a great argument).
I guess the argument here is that MR healing feels more “fair” than OW’s healing. Or maybe because the game in MR is slower, it is easier to react to it than Overwatch’s. And this is true. Overwatch has been extremely brutal to new players and without much regard to how it handles the “blink and die” issues the game has always had.
Thus far, you don’t really see that in Marvel Rivals.
Dude, the support roster before Ana was introduced was literally just Lucio, Zenyartta and Mercy (and technically Symmetra, but she’s never been able to heal). Non-ult burst healing DID NOT EXIST in overwatch before Ana and her biotic grenade, so she’s actually the cause of the problem that she’s supposedly meant to solve.
The addition of bionade is what started the entire vicious cycle of “increase damage to deal with powercrept healing, then power creep healing even harder to deal with the increased levels of damage, and then (repeat cycle).”
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Mantis out there killing tanks 1v1 but ok
The common problem, most of things in OW balanced around Ana’s nade. Kiriko the answer for Ana, RoadHog and Mauga rolling around Ana, DPS passive made to counter Ana’s nade buff (exactlier to counter heal excess), even the whole tank role rolling around Ana. Why this broken hero so important in OW?
Burst vs Sustain.
Overwatch is loaded with burst healing, mostly because it has to deal with a lot of burst damage. The thing about Overwatch in its current state is that nothing ever dies, but dying is also very sudden. You can be two-tapped by most any damage, so you don’t want to be anywhere near a breakpoint for too long. Burst healing slings your HP values up and down rapidly, enough so that it’s very difficult to kill unless there’s a coordinated combo of attacks.
MR is mostly sustained damage with sustained healing. A lot of it has to do with keeping a tempo going, maintaining momentum through team fights. Sustained damage is high enough to outpace healing, but good healing focus can outplay poor tracking and cooldown management. Burst healing only really shows up in ultimates (and Adam Warlock’s healing, which is poor because of long cooldowns).
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Bro is confidently incorrect.
Or hasnt had a mantis survive a full clip to the head cuz adam warlock pressed E and healed her 200 hp in one frame
Aside from Venom. I freakin’ love Venom. Unless it’s that one city map where you end up going underground and the ceiling feels like everyone is 6’7". Then Venom becomes a misery simulator, at least for me.
As a direct comparison.
- Mantis. +50hp, then lingering heal.
- Adam West. 95hp x2 burst.
- C&D. Veil → Dagger Storm burst. Otherwise, slower sustained.
- Sue. 80 heal shot. If you include shield, that can be considered a burst heal to block incoming damage.
- Jeff. Bubble +85hp + 15% healing bonus.
- Rocket. 70hps. His revive station if you want.
- Luna. Technically, she has a 93hps burst primary fire. Her E passive combined with seasonal bonus of 15%.
- Loki. I’m not sure how to explain his shift ability. Its a high burst, but partially based on incoming damage. For the most part you aren’t dying in it.
Overwatch
- Kiriko. At best, she has suzu + ofuda for about 180hp I think it was.
- Moira. She really has no burst.
- Brigitte. She has no burst. Its +25hp + inspire.
- Lucio. No burst.
- Zenyatta. No burst
- Life Weaver. He pulls someone away from you.
- Mercy. No burst, but she has Rez which is like rocket revive.
- Juno. You’d have to prefire torpedo → a full pistol salvo for a burst. It’d be like 150hp.
- Baptiste. The best you can do is ifield or regen burst + heal shot for 80+70 for 150hp.
- Ana. Can do 75+75 for burst, then some sustained.
As a whole, much of the burst is concentrated in like 3 heroes. Bap, Ana, and Kiriko. The rest no. This isnt’ factoring in DPS passive.
I’d argue its not burst healing at all. Especially when MR supports can hit 150hp as a regular option. 160hps Jeff and 150hp Luna. Even factoring all of their support ult spam potential.
What’s really changed is that overtime Overwatch has pulled back on how easy it is to get kills. Tanks are not super easy to kill because they have damage mitigation. Tanks in MR have next to no raw mitigation and face tank damage through sheer overhealth most of the time, so they rely upon supports having busted healing output to make up for it. Overwatch has also worked over time to pull back on damage combos that are too easy to pull off forcing most of the kill combos to be more aim based.
Yes, hog as a one shot combo, but it requires so much more set-up than it did on launch. He can’t headshot for 2.0x, his spread is changed, he puts targets further away, and hook damage is reduced. You MUST prefire or trap to land a kill combo.
This certainly is another aspect.
Moira. Lingering heal + Orb.
Juno. PUlsar Torpedo.
Illari. Pylon healing someone else.
Lucio. AoE aura.
Brig. AoE aura.
Zen. Healing orb.
Mercy. She’s busy trying to heal/dmg bst other and try to keep you engaged instead of her.
Baptiste. Regen burst.
MR
Mantis. 8sec zen orb on multiple heroes.
Invisible Woman. Shield. If you aim the shot well.
Luna. If you aim her ability to hit enemy heal player.
C&D. Dagger Storm or her attacking someone + healing in the 8m aura.
Jeff. If you want to include bubbles lingering.
Rocket. Kind of with reset machine and orb flying around.
The big thing to me at the moment is the lack of anti-dive supports at the moment. There really isn’t any high mobility support in MR yet beyond Rocket and maybe Jeff. As well as little CC beyond Luna/Sue/Mantis. Oh, look, all the best supports again.
These are equally all of the strongest supports. But to me, OW is in its best state when it is neither spammy nor divey. But more brawly.
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healers have been soo buffed in OW that their basic abilities can make them unkillable. MR healers cannot outheal a dps that is focused on a single target. The Ults on the other hand…
Wait… Aren’t you forgetting someone? (Not that I blame you, she’s pretty forgettable)
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Nobody else loves poor Illari.
Yeah, poor Illari isn’t popular anywhere.
She could really use some help.
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