And yet they enable the most sustain in the game by far.
If they nerfed pylon’s actual effect instead of its cooldown/hp, she’d be way better to fight.
Agreed here, I will admit.
I’m bloody sick and tired of these defensive, sustain-oriented heroes being allowed outside of low ranks. Sustain outside of hp pools themselves should always be weak. It’s almost killed the game two times in a row.
na don’t play Genji on defence it’s a throw 90% of the time. This first point choke is decent tho cause hanzo is the goat at attacking bridge which genji counters.
I’m fine with both of these heroes. Widow because she takes precision, timing, and positioning. Brig because she’s one of the only supports that requires you to have your brain on or you will die (unless we’re talking about OW1 brig).
You also forgot to include Sym into that first category. I feel like she’s the #1 offender on that list.
And yet you provide 0 reasons why it’s a bad take… Big brain
I mean, the title kind of speaks for itself as to why it’s a bad take. OP wants defensive heroes to never be meta, and to artificially be kept down so as to keep the offense heroes meta all the time.
So, exactly what heroes are allowed to be played outside of low ranks, going by your criteria?
Sure, but it doesn’t invalidate his claim when you provide no evidence to the contrary.
Frankly, not a single issue comes to mind by having all the defensive characters nerfed other than maybe having the offensive heroes be too strong (which is an issue that can be resolved by tuning the offensive heroes stats rather than buffing defensive hero stats) although I also haven’t even thought about it in-depth at all yet.
Providing reasons to the discussion not only helps you defend your claim, but also helps elaborate the issue at hand so that common ground can be found. So next time, just provide even the slightest bit of contrary evidence from the get go and it should be all good.
If only you were smart enough to realise this game is about attacking the objective in 90% of games
Because if theres one thing I know about widow is that she takes no skill and is difficult to punish.
Troll
In short
‘‘hey guys buff Genji’’
His claim isn’t that defensive heroes are too strong right now. His claim is that they should be F tier to low B tier, with some being unable to be played outside of low ranks because he doesn’t like that the effort to reward ratio isn’t the same as the effort to reward ratio of a more offensive hero like Tracer.
I might’ve provided evidence to the contrary if OP had treated this like an actual discussion instead of just being mad they died to LW too many times. None of OPs takes sound even somewhat reasonable.
OP has provided zero supporting evidence for their argument about how defensive heroes are so strong that the only possible solution is to absolutely gut sustain, limit which heroes can be played outside of low ranks, make all defensive heroes inferior to offensive heroes, limit them to defense only, and ensure that defensive playstyles are bad.
So, not a single issue comes to mind by implementing everything OP has suggested?
Well then I guess it’s a good thing this is such an extreme take that there is no common ground to be found.
You see no issue with defensive heroes being nerfed to be not as strong as they currently are. That’s reasonable. OP wants defensive heroes to never be meta, be limited to defense only, have some limited to low ranks only, make them inferior to offensive heroes, and have defensive playstyles always be bad.
That is completely unreasonable.
Maybe when OP decides they want to have a serious, reasonable discussion, I’ll treat it like such and provide contrary evidence from the get-go.
That doesn’t appear to be flawed logic to me.
If your character only requires to press a single button or use an ability without needing to position, aim, or time it, I feel that that is something that shouldn’t be very rewarding. If we treat this like a scale, the opposite should be true for characters who demand extreme amounts of positioning/aiming/timing/etc.
Players would have no reason to play the demanding characters when they can get the same value on low effort characters. In this sense, I agree with OP that certain heroes should be low tier depending on the effort required to play the hero and I don’t see how it could be too unreasonable to even consider putting forth a counter argument.
OP created a post to share his thoughts on this topic and (albeit a bit crude) put forth a few claims for others to read. You chose to disregard his post without providing any real reason as to why and then proceeded with unnecessary snarky remarks (as you have continued to even in your latest response).
If you simply ignored the post, it wouldn’t have been an issue. If you had responded with your own claims in a respectful manner, it wouldn’t have been an issue. You chose hostility though which is just unfair to OP.
I listed 1 and said “although I also haven’t even thought about it in-depth at all yet” meaning none of the posts underneath it sparked any real concerns to me. That and I typically sit on these solutions/ideas for a while before accepting/rejecting them just in case I realize something I may not have earlier.
There is always common ground to be found. To deny that is, quite frankly, narrowminded.
As for somethings I feel could easily have common ground from the ones you mentioned, I find that a defensive characters should be weak when playing aggressively. It only makes sense that if you’re good at defending, you should be bad at attacking. Maybe not incapable of attacking, but it should definitely be harder. ← This is a perfect counter-claim that you could’ve provided just worded differently.
And just a side note; He didn’t claim that defensive playstyles should be bad, he claimed that they should be bad when not defending which just makes sense.
Its flawed because nerfing anything that might endanger Tracer’s supremacy inherently makes Tracer easier to play and perform with.
Most of this silly discussion over ‘‘skill’’ comes down to people grabbing into the word to, hypocritically, make the heroes they put in a pedestal easier and more rewarding for less effort.
No hero is like this, despite what the Skill Police says.
Ironically, it has been the Skill Police the one most content with removing skill expression from heroes they dont like, like Sym 2.0 losing her photon barrier. Which was met with a celebration from the Skill Police.
The truth is that people like OP dont care about ‘‘skill’’ they only care about the heroes they like having easier rewards and heroes they dont like getting as close as deleted from the game as possible.
Another ISuckyLacringe post.
Sadly, even if they gut all tanks, all defense DPS and all supports even more, it wont make you a good player anyways.
I don’t see the connection between nerfing defensive heroes and Tracer supremacy. Even if any problematic offensive character became to powerful, they can be swiftly dealt with by adding minor nerfs to their DPS output or general uptime.
I disagree. There are quite a few heroes who have something akin to “early-game skill expression” which is far easier to learn than something like “reactionary skill expression.”
What I mean by “early-game skill expression” is something like Torbjorn setting up his turret. It’s not exactly difficult to do once you learn the most effective positions for his turrets (which is also easy in comparison to training your mind to read people’s movements and decisions before they actually make them). The only thing stopping torb from gaining value is the enemy team catching him before he’s set up, but once he is setup he is incredibly difficult to deal with (which is why lower ranks struggle against him).
In this sense, I believe these characters should be less impactful without the setup (basically walking defenseless prey) until they have committed to their strategy (which is their form of skill expression). This would require them to be smarter about their approach than they currently are and would make playing against them less frustrating than it currently is.
Symmetra 2.0 countered Tracer outside of full Dive comp.
Torb has been historically one of the few Tracer checks.
Mei is also good at limiting the spaces she can run wild in.
Junkrat was supposed to check her but he was never allowed to.
Defense heroes used to be the anti-flanker heroes. Now they are mostly Great Value Hitscans.
Whatever something is easy or learn or not is irrelevant.
Its whatever you can derive something of value out of it. Most of things like Torb’s turret are more braindead to counter than to get value out of, and that alone makes it hard to get value out of the moment you start meeting decent players.
Ironically for Torb to get ‘’‘‘free’’‘’’ value you need to literally be worse than the Torb player.
Something that few DPS player has even admitted or accepted.
Most of them are. Defense heroes are often weaker than offense heroes outside their optimal situations.
But that was never enough for the people who onetrick Tracer/Soldier/etc and didnt want to ever deal with anything that countered them or punished them for their bad player decisions. Tracer mains are notorious for wanting to dive into bad situations like numeral disadvantages and still come out alive with a kill.
But also the reality of the matter is that despite what you might believe, the game merely starts once you have learned and mastered heroes. Performing with said heroes is a whole matter altogether and the truth of high ranks is that at those ranks its easier to win with heroes like Tracer than it is to win with Torb or Moira.
So in essence, if flankers were more balanced it would be acceptable to nerf these anti-flank heroes? If so, I 100% agree. There is nothing more frustrating than being punished twice as much because you chose a non-uber-mobile hero and having the effects just stack onto you.
I feel like that’s the only way you can play Torbjorn because that’s just the nature of auto-aim turret-esque abilities. Something that requires no player input should be braindead to counter, otherwise it’ll just be perfect defense and offense just by pushing one button.
Also I disagree that learning is irrelevant. Complex kits with multiple interactions take far longer to learn than simple ones with two or three abilities. Learning something like Ball or Doomfist should be more rewarding than learning something like Rein or Zarya. Maybe not necessarily stronger damage-wise, but certainly should be frustrating if left unchecked.
I don’t understand how that could be. Turret requires coordination between multiple people to destroy while setting up requires almost nothing.
I think that comes down to higher ranked player being more coordinated than it does to them having mastered the heroes. You could be the best Genji otp in the world, but there isn’t much you can do against a Torbjorn and his turret if you’re alone.
And while I generally agree with you in the sense that defense heroes are weaker outside of their optimal situations, I still believe many of them are too powerful atm. For instance, Torb’s overload is quite oppressive and Bastions ability to shoot with laser-like accuracy while also having a 115 dmg sticky bomb removes his defenselessness while out of turret form.
In theory, sure, as long as they maintain those strengths or gain another one that are equally good.
But that hasnt happened. Most have been nerfed with no real relevant compensation.
Because shooting a stationary target with low HP is easy in this game.
Thats why you see a harsh and almost instant difference between metal ranks Torbs that get away with open space turrets and every Torb above them that uses it as mostly flank route coverage.
Only when its being covered by multiple people.
If no one is covering for it, there is nothing stopping you from picking a hero with no fall-off and just 2 tapping it.
The best Genji in the world can literally just deflect and fan a turret while Torb cant do much.
Torb does not counter Genji or Tracer 1v1. He counters them because he forces them to engage on his turret and/or on him to dive his supports more freely.
Yes he did.
OP also doesn’t want defense heroes to ever be meta.
No common ground to be found here. 
Yup, I don’t see any sensible balance changes coming from the current balance team any time soon, so… the best we can do is dream.
It may be a stationary target, but that’s about it. It’s got 40m of range, 225 hp, and 44 dps. Its basically another teammate with auto-aim. Putting it opposite of yourself creates a crossfire that’s incredibly difficult to deal with by yourself.
Of course though, you can swap to a long range hero to poke it down, but that’s the issue with it. It forces a switch, regardless of whether or not a character is uber-mobile (as long as they are not capable of doing long-range damage or coordinating with a teammate). There’s not really a way to “outplay” a Torb turret and that’s without even mentioning someone who’s there to protect the turret (or use it for crossfire).
This is fine for uber-mobile heroes since burning their cooldowns puts them in a vulnerable position, however, this should not be interfering with the slower heroes without mobility as much as it does. They already have no way to cross the LOS, so forcing them to be bullet sponges is just unnecessary and unbalanced.
My solution to this has always been lowering the HP of heroes with more than 2 forms of mobility (things like 3 tracer blinks/wall climb, double jump, dash/etc.) and then lowering the damage output of turret. This way it still effects its intended targets without being too much of a nuisance for other characters.
In that case, I must’ve misread it for something else. My mistake.
Tbf, I don’t think any character should be meta, since metas make the game stale. Obviously, that’s just an impossible feat to conquer though, so…
It’s always best to take a neutral stance when reading an opposing viewpoint because it allows you to see why they may be frustrated with the topic at hand. In this case OP is frustrated about the risk/reward ratio, but he apparently isn’t aware that it’s not just a defensive hero trait. It is very easy show him the statistics of the heroes he claims are too rewarding and prove the opposite (same can be said about characters who actually are too easy).
If you don’t feel like going through the effort of doing that, that’s fine, but there’s equally no need to leave unnecessary remarks if you aren’t going to contribute to the discussion (even as wrong/stupid as the proposed discussion may seem).
You are wrong kinda.
Whike defense team has better space control offense team has advanatage on picks and kill trades for most of the game.
In high elo for example most hybrid and payload maps go multiple rounds of teams pushing the payload to the end succeasfully, sometimes twice in a row.
Attacking has its own advantages.
The advantage on attacking is being able to decide when you engage. You can draw out cooldowns and then nuke the defending team when they can’t defend themselves.
I still consider defending to be stronger.