ultimates dont count
True,
veryyyyy
due to like tank getting pocketed 24/7 discord is a good counter
No, I am not talking about my specific mains. I’m talking about bare minimum half of an entire role, not having any counterplay for a singular ability that cannot miss, be mitigated (beyond just not playing). Hell even Orisa has more counterplay when playing as Rein, a character she is considered to counter pretty well.
Yes, the abilities don’t do much but that is not the point. The point is that the abilities don’t have some form of generalised counterplay. Invisible hack cannot be interupted except by luck in the vast majority of situations.
You do have a point on the Cassidy Nade, but I’m still very much on the side of replacing Cassidy’s magnetic Nade with a different type that is more skillful, perhaps a frag grenade that bounces with a moderate explosive radius and exists for burst damage. A fun variation on Ashe’s dynamite. It would be a more engaging ability with more you know, fun. Maybe a different replacement would be better, I am all for that.
Whilst I acknowledge the irony of me commenting on a grenade right before saying this, at no point have I advocated for making the game simpler. I have at all times in this argument been advocating for the game to become more engaging, more things to know, more things to figure out counterplay for and play around.
For instance, Bastion by his nature forces a sort of tempo to the fight where both teams play around his turret and attempt to utilise either its’ uptime, or downtime to swing a fight in their favour. I rather enjoy facing Bastion as Rein for instance even though according to a lot of players he ‘counters’ my ability to do things.
I enjoy facing Pharah’s as Rein as well, even though I personally can’t do much to threaten her beyond being good with firestrikes, I can at the very least shield and manuevre the push to mitigate her rockets from killing my team. Similar to how I would deal with long range heroes like Ashe or Widow. She can be positioned around to force her into the open, where she will be at a disadvantage. etc.
There’s a lot of thinking in the game and plenty to worry about, not every hero is one that I will personally have an answer for, but the vast majority of abilities will have an answer or way to counterplay it. The current problems in the game that the community seems to dislike, are the ones with little to no counterplay or risk to reward. Widow on Junkertown, Discord Orb. Suzu, Ana Nade, Nano-Kitsune-Visor, Hog one shot. etc. etc.
Perhaps, we should look at maintaining the fantasy and philosophy of each character whilst still you know, changing their abilities and giving them different utility. Keep the complexity of the game but improve it, provide changes to every character so that the game remains fresh and everyone at some point will need to adjust how they play characters, and not do the same thing every game forever onwards.
Reply to Maidenless12-2988 is going here before I don’t use the forums enough to know how to reply to two people properly in one post, if you don’t end up responding I won’t hold it against you or anything because you know, not your fault I lack knowledge on replies in forums:
Because if you stay in cover 24/7 you aren’t actually doing anything as a tank. There’s no tank that benefits from not taking space. The only real area I can think of that your ‘counterplay’ applies to, is Good ol Hanamura first point defence. And that’s if they don’t manage to get through the first choke.
Honesty I am up for a replacement for mag grenade, it felt like a half step in keeping some aspect of flash. While also keeping it fair with it’s long wind up. And in turn not really filling any needed niche, as it isn’t even a good counter flanker tool.
but it ended up kind of clunky in the end, and the devs are onboard with a rework to both the nade and with fan the hammer.
And you can engage zen to keep with just about any hero to keep discord off of key targets. like pressuring him even at range with a fire strike will force him to break LOS, which in turn keeps discord off of everyone. It’s a bit of a priority juggle mostly, be it still a viable way to deal with him.
Like he is a squishy with no instant way of healing himself, you need to just keep the pressure on him. And his discord up time will be minimum.
As it’s effectively the only team utility he has. If it was harder to apply or easier to remove, then he simply wouldn’t be an effective support.
you would basically require a full on rework to zen to move the power anywere else.
As compensating with higher damage/heal output would just create higher spikes of being effective when orb does land, but long periods off not being able to do much. Or just being really boring as the healing orb isn’t that interesting of a tool.
that and the enemy team isn’t at any significant advantage of having zen over another support hero, as their losing a significant amount of healing for having access to discord
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First of all, before I mention anything else:
Thank you very much.
Moving onto a reply though.
While yes, this technically does deal with discord orb, it effectively only creates 0.5 seconds of downtime, before it snaps right back on. A potential rework to discord that’d make life much easier is to have a downtime similar to Sombra hack where it can be on a target for a specific amount of time, say 7 seconds (more than enough), and then it will automatically return and not be placeable back on that person for another 7 seconds. Of course assuming Zen would be buffed alongside this change to discord (perhaps a mild increase to fire rate or health buff to 225), as it would at the very least mean that discord isn’t just a set and forget ability, at least I could play around the tempo like I do against Bastion and other similar characters.
With the support passive, and just how far back he can play (40 metres is an incredible distance to cross, even as Winston, Dva or Ball.)
I am arguing for this, yes. He should get a rework. He is not healthy in his current state.
This, once again, is not about whether Discord is overpowered or underpowered. It is about how fun it is to play against. Like Mei. Mei isn’t a powerful character but her wall isn’t very fun to play against for quite a lot of the playerbase (even if I’d argue there’s a lot more interactivity to wall). She isn’t meta, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look at reworking her to a state more fun to play into.
As stated before. I can play against and beat Zen comps. I have not been arguing that it is overpowered or unfairly powerful. I have been talking about fun factor and counterplay. It feels terrible when something happens that you can do very little or straight up nothing about.
It’s going to take longer for zen to self heal then .5 seconds like at least 3 seconds, and if the other healer does peal for him that is an opportunity to push and combo down an enemy.
Even then any hero can do this, meaning that he can be pressured from up to five damage sources. if not focused by a dedicated diver/flanker. Like that’s my original point the more aggro you are on zen the less he can do, as he will have to break LOS to heal. meaning that his discord isn’t up most of the game.
if it is your not doing your part to either not pressure or call out the zen as a priority target.
he is not really meta at the moment, his win and pick rate is middle of the road.
discord comes at a huge trade off of lack of healing/survivability that can be exploited. At best he is increasing the speed of the fight for either team.
The people that actually have an issue with him are a loud minority.
no it’s actually pretty balanced at the moment. And is significantly less commonly played then mercy or ana. he is more of a preference pick or a counter pick tool for something like JQ.