Things like “Discord should be nerfed because of how much it hurts tanks!”. Or “Sleep shouldn’t work on tanks! You know its mostly used on them!”.
…So the argument is that the role known for tanking damage shouldn’t be affected by things that make them take more damage? They should just tank damage with no weaknesses? Same for sleep: the argument is that the hyper durable role made to tank damage and steamrole enemies SHOULDN’T have have to worry about abilities made to stop that?
In what way does that make any sort of game design sense? Do you people think about that at all? In OW1, stuff like this made sense. Tanks weren’t nearly as durable, and stun stacking was a problem, but in OW2? The game where tanks are more durable because they’re now physically doing two jobs (and when they weren’t as durable, we have footage of them contributing nothing to the match)?
I’m just saying, that stuff reads like people don’t understand the game. It literally is the same logic as “That water type pokemon countered my super powerful fire type pokemon. This simply should not be; my fire type should be able to steam roll every other enemy! Remove the water types from the game!”.
I’m not going to act like park the discord on the tank isn’t huge value. It is. Do I feel it’s a huge problem? Not really, unless Zen just blows up in pick rates. Rn he is still vulnerable and farmable. It’s a trade off.
But we around here recognize the problematic elements regarding damage boost. The devs look at their metrics they refuse to share and decree it’s not a problem.
Zenyatta is a discussion we all knew was coming up. If mercy damage boost was up for debate naturally zen discord would eventually be discussed. The sleep dart not working on tanks was silly. That’s just unfair considering most tanks have counter play to it. And 3/4 that don’t are high mobility dive heroes. Hog is the only tank truly hard countered by Ana.
I’m pretty sure I started this thread ethically enough. I laid out comments, and then showed why I have an issue with them.
I don’t agree. Zenyatta is easy enough to kill at range, and I’m not too convinced with arguments against him. You can read my chat history, and people unironically go “What? Let Damage heroes pick him off at a distance? Use your damage mitigation abilities the best you can to give them enough space to shoot him?! Begone with such suggestions! I won’t even entertain them!”.
I hope you see the issue with that.
They do, I will admit, however I see non-tanks mains asking for this too. Like they fundamentally don’t understand why such abilities are in the game.
Personally, I think we stop pretending damage boost is a problem at all. All of those metrics around damage boosting is a smokescreen; they saw Sojourn was OP, and raced to find scapegoats.
Mercy’s damage boost is fine, Zen’s discord is fine, we really should start talking about the real issues before this game becomes even more bloated with busted hitscans and OP one shots at the expense of everything else.
A 25% damage boost is essentially a 25% health reduction. So depending on the tank, an Orb takes away between 100-160 HP on a tank. Doesn’t require much aim, has no cooldown, and has no counterplay other than hiding, which isn’t really a counter since tanks are supposed to (as you say) take damage. Hard to do when you’re not engaging.
It’s a mechanic that feels bad. It gives tremendous value for not much effort. Of course people are going to hate it when it’s too strong.
So many metas have been protect the Zen. Zen/Luco, Zen/Mercy, etc. It works so extremely well in coordinated teams, working off their enabling of deletion on a dive or whatever.
Every element of damage boost is a problem for the rest of the players. Respect that and try to understand
I believe that the tank passive should also extend to things such as soft CC as well. Maybe damage orb does less damage, maybes slow is less potent, anti shouldn’t last as long. Not complete immunity but allows tanks to make more space.
I’m lost. Are you for or against discord. You stated it works great in coordinated play and it seems like it was in a positive light. Then said it’s awful for other players. And I need to respect that emotion.
This entire paragraph seems like a good reason to put Discord in the game. Especially when you consider the tanks:
Reinhardt: Holds up a barrier that will literally block him and his team from taking health damage. He can do this while discorded and move through cover, or even push forward to give his team a better chance at shooting Zen. He has armor health to mitigate damage further.
Sigma: Has a DM to delete shots and a barrier to do the same thing that Reinhardt can do. The barrier has less health, but with the DM, he’s pretty covered.
D.va: Can DM and fly away from danger.
Ramattra: Has a barrier to do the same things Reinhardt and Sigma can. He can use his buff-boy mode to block damage and get extra health when in danger.
Orisa: Is Orisa.
Now, that’s not to say some tanks don’t suffer more from it, but I don’t really see how that’s bad game design since everyone’s coutnered by something. And it doesn’t take that health away from you; it just makes you more likely to lose it.
If I discord you and then no one can shoot you (like if funny german man holds that shield up), what good is your discord? Its just like you don’t have it.
Oh, and also
This game has been butchered due to removing mechanics that “feel” bad. Team Fortress 2 is legendary, and it has mechanics that “feel” bad. Like the Engineer who can build an Sentry so strong that it will lock down whole sightlines by itself. Literally eliminating the enemy team with no input from the Engie unless he’s wrangling it, or spanking it for being a good turret.
You might think “Well, they’ll just run counters to the sentry”, but why not just run counters to Zenyatta?
Really? When? Also, just because characters were nerfed doesn’t mean they should have been nerfed.
I’m against. I love Zen, and Zen orb has its unique restrictions when it comes to LOS etc. It’s still immediately reapplicable. Which is a problem.
In coordinated play it’s TOO effective because you can have an entire dive team jump on a singular target and delete them before they can even react. You don’t have that on ladder but you can get dn close.
Mercy pocket works more on ladder cuz then you just rely on one person, not multiple.
Either way, damage boost breaks things. We can go back and forth Mercy vs Zen etc etc. At the core damage boost remains the problem.
We don’t have any damage reduction abilities that work in the same way, do we? There’s no balance. Because the fear of stacking damage reduction echos PTSD of goats and double shield.
I genuinely believe this is because damage reduction abilities don’t matter. They gave Bap a damage reduction field in that april fools day thing, and it didn’t help. They buffed his healing, and it still didn’t matter.
I know some skills were wacky during that, but there were a ton of damage values that were the same. His field didn’t help people; they died while he was healing them in it.
Its cute that you think they’d compensate him. If anything they’d nerf his discord and his healing just so Sojourn can continue to pop off.