đź›  Torbjorn Rework: How to make Builder to fit fast-paced game

General Discussion
1

We already know that Torbjorn is next in line for rework after Symmetra.
In this thread I want to analyze his current problems and theorize about possible ways to fix them.

Disclaimer
Keep in mind that this thread is only about suggestions, not demands, and that all these suggestions may not be ideal and should be properly tested.

Problem #1: Power Disbalance
Currently, Torb plays more like TF2 Engineer with classic sentry. It means that Torbs himself is an addition to the turret. It worked badly in TF2 so Engineer was unpopular in Competitive TF2.
The reason is simple: if major part of hero power is focused in stationary AI controlled “minion”, this hero ends up being too powerful against low skill players on lower ranks, and absolutely garbage against high skill players at higher ranks. Low skill players struggles to deal with something that has auto-aim, while high skill players simply able to take an advantage over stationary targets.

Problem #2: Immobility
The second problem of Torbjorn is that he is almost useless on attacking side because of his immobility. He can’t provide a lot of impact in battle without a turret and turret takes too much time to set it up. Torbjorn is too connected to his turret.
Orisa had the same problem upon release: she was too immobile and she was not able to move with her team because her Barrier had a way longer CD. She was forced to stay near barrier for longer time simply because she could not move it quickly enough.
Torb has the same problem: he is forced to stay near turret for a long time.

Goals of Rework

  1. Power rebalance between Torbjorn and his turret: Turret should be an addition to Torbjorn, not vise versa
  2. Mobility improvements: Torbjorn should not be too heavily tied to his turret and the ground where he place it
  3. Attack potential improvements: Torbjorn should be more effective on attacking side while retaining his power on defense

Possible Solutions

  1. To make Torbjorn himself more powerful in combat
  2. To make Turret more autonomous in terms of setup
  3. To give Torbjorn better control over his Turret
  4. To improve usability of quick Level 1 Turret

Suggestions
First of all, we need to improve how Torbjorn sets up his turret and to make it more autonomous:

  • Torbjorn can now throw turret from range
  • (Optional) Turret can now be placed on walls and ceiling)
  • Level 1 Turret deploys faster
  • Level 1 Turret constantly regenerates health until deployed. Turret deployment can be interrupted only with burst damage
  • Level 1 Turret automatically upgrades into Level 2 Turret after X seconds (Suggestion: 6-8 seconds)
  • Turret CD decreased (Suggestion: from 8 to 6 seconds)
  • Level 2 Turret health increased from 300HP to 150HP+150Armor to make it harder to deal with
  • Level 3 Turret health increased from 800HP to 650HP+150Armor
  • (Optional: if Turret can be placed on walls an ceiling) Torbjorn can now repair his turret from range by main attack of his gun

Results:
Turret is now more like “fire and forget” in terms of setup. Torbjorn no longer needs to babysit his Turret to deploy and upgrade it. Instead, he can now quickly throw Level 1 Turret to provide some additional firepower for allies and distraction for enemies and engage combat by himself.
Ability to throw Turret from range and to deploy it in more unpredictable places will make it harder for enemies to focus both Torb and his Turret at the same time.
If enemies will ignore Level 1 Turret for too long they will be punished by more powerful and harder to kill Level 2 Turret.

Secondly, we need to improve Torbjorn himself to make him viable in direct combat. He is one of the most immobile and vulnerable heroes in the game, but addition of new mobility option will not fit his fantasy and role. Instead, we need to improve his firepower and survivability:

  • Base health increased from 200HP to 100HP+100Armor
  • Rivet Gun reload time decreased (Suggestion: from 2 to 1.5 seconds)
  • Alternate Attack now has the same rate of fire as Main Attack (from 0.8 seconds per round to 0.6 seconds per round)

Results:
Torbjorn is a weapon-/armor-smith so it is natural for him to have innate armor. Innate armor will compensate his bulky model and huge crit-box and bonus armor from Armor Pack can make him tanky enough to engage in direct combat.
Improvements for weapon will make Torbjorn less clunky to play.

Now we need to make Turret less oppressive against low skill players:

  • Turret now takes more time to focus on target before fire
  • Level 1 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 28DPS to 24DPS))
  • Level 2 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 56DPS to 48DPS))

Result:
Enemies have more time to react to Turret and they are less punished if Turret focuses them automatically.

But we also need to give Torbjorn more control over his Turret and its power:

New ability added - Target Lock-On

  • Works like Sombra’s Hack
  • Has 0.65 seconds casting time
  • Commands Turret to instantly focus on target
  • Focused target takes more damage from Turret (Suggestion: 20-50% bonus damage, depends on CD)
  • Suggested CD: 4-8 seconds, depends on bonus damage
  • Lock-on clears after 5 seconds if target is out of sight

This ability could be implemented in two different variations:
Variation #1: More Firepower - Less Utility

  • Target Lock-on Ability replaces Armor Pack on E button
  • Armor Pack remains on E button, but only when Hammer is equipped
  • This variations retains his Alternate Attack, but also makes Repair Pack harder to use in direct combat (but switching to hammer also reloads his gun, so it has its own pros)

Variation #2: More Utility - Less Firepower

  • Target Lock-On replaces Alternate Attack on RMB
  • Turret also enters Suppression Fire mode that not only increases damage, but also briefly slows target with each shot
  • In this variation Torb loses a lot of power against Tanks and other large targets, but his Armor Pack still can be used in direct combat and Suppression Fire makes him great against highly mobile and squishy heroes like flankers.

Results:
Torb has more control over his Turret so his effectiveness relies more on player’s skill rather than on AI.

Summary
Changes:

Base Stats:

  • Health increased from 200HP to 100HP+100Armor

Rivet Gun:

  • Reload time decreased (Suggestion: from 2 to 1.5 seconds)
  • Alternate Attack now has the same rate of fire as Main Attack (from 0.8 seconds per round to 0.6 seconds per round)

Build Turret:

  • Torbjorn can now throw turret from range
  • (Optional) Turret can now be placed on walls and ceiling)
  • Level 1 Turret deploys faster
  • Level 1 Turret constantly regenerates health until deployed. Turret deployment can be interrupted only with burst damage
  • Level 1 Turret automatically upgrades into Level 2 Turret after X seconds (Suggestion: 6-8 seconds)
  • Turret now takes more time to focus on target before fire
  • Level 1 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 28DPS to 24DPS))
  • Level 2 Turret damage decreased (Suggestion: from 14 to 12 per round (from 56DPS to 48DPS))
  • Turret CD decreased (Suggestion: from 8 to 6 seconds)
  • Level 2 Turret health increased from 300HP to 150HP+150Armor to make it harder to deal with
  • Level 3 Turret health increased from 800HP to 650HP+150Armor
  • (Optional: if Turret can be placed on walls an ceiling) Torbjorn can now repair his turret from range by main attack of his gun

New Ability - Target Lock-On:

  • Works like Sombra’s Hack
  • Has 0.65seconds casting time
  • Commands Turret to instantly focus on target
  • Focused target takes more damage from Turret (Suggestion: 20-50% bonus damage, depends on CD)
  • Suggested CD: 4-8 seconds, depends on bonus damage
  • Lock-on clears after 5 seconds if target out of side
    Variation #1: More Firepower - Less Utility
  • Target Lock-on Ability replaces Armor Pack on E button
  • Armor Pack remains on E button, but only when Hammer is equipped
    Variation #2: More Utility - Less Firepower
  • Target Lock-On replaces Alternate Attack on RMB
  • Turret also enters into Suppression Fire mode that no only increases damage, but also briefly slows target with each shot

Results:
With these changes Torbjorn can now participate in direct combat more freely because he is no longer strictly tied to his Turret due to its faster and autonomous deployment and upgrade. “Fire-and-forget” nature of new deployment and upgrade mechanics allow Torbjorn more effectively push with his team on attacking side, while retaining his zone-control power with hardened Level 2 Turret.
Turret is less oppressive in auto-aim mode, so enemies have more time to react, but its power drastically increases if Torbjorn effectively uses manual control.
Torbjorn himself is more powerful: he still lacks mobility, but this is compensated with better survivability and more firepower.

Note:
These changes are purely theoretical and cannot be balanced without testing. The goal is to suggest general direction of future rework rather than propose changes in accurate numbers.

Any constructive feedback is welcome. All comments help to keep thread alive.

6 Likes
2

Give his turret two more upgrade tiers. At third tier it shoots rockets. Upon ult it starts flying around like a little beefy mecha pharah. Original idea please dont copy pasterino.

3

Hey! I was just about to make a thread on this after I saw the Your Overwatch video! You know what I still am.

4

I don’t like when abilities are drastically changed or removed, so here’s my idea:

Turret:
Can now be placed on walls and ceilings
Hammering it does 75 HP
Turret health during Molten Core is entirely armor

Armor Pack:
Can hold up to 250 scrap
Any armor released during Molten Core gives CC resistance and looks red in the HP bar

Passive:
Turret hop- Torbjorn can hop off a turret to give him a jump boost
Molten Shots- Torbjorn’s rivet gun ignores armor damage reduction due to being made of lava

EDIT:
COmpletely forgot to mention this:
Turret can be healed and upgraded at the same time (thank youGreyFalcon for reminding me)

1 Like
5

That’s not a bad idea actually

6

All they need to do is allow him to upgrade and heal his turret at the same time.

7

Do not remove his armor kits. They are needed to help counteract his critbox, and allow him to be supportive even if the player is not the best at landing his slow moving projectiles. He does have one of the hardest to maximize guns in the game due to those projectiles.

Instead since you are removing the need for Torbjorn to upgrade the turret himself you can move his hammer to being his melee attack (or just make his claw deploy a hammer when hitting the turret and up his melee damage) and move the turret itself off of shift and into being a “construction kit” as a “secondary weapon”. This also allows if need be for other construct ideas to be integrated into him as options in the construction kit.

This would free up the shift to become your target designation idea.

Also, there is no need to drop the damage on the turret. Its damage is already low enough that all heroes can respond in the 4 seconds it takes for it to kill them. Even in its ult state its kill speed on moving targets only drops by 1 second.

8

I just feel like it gives him slight mobility and makes him a non-oppressive but still powerful counter to the evil stun meta of Brigitte’s shield bash. All the Turret changes make it more viable on offense and at the same time don’t make it too powerful.

9

lol no, the turrets AI needs fixing right now, genji and tracer can bug out its targeting by ADAD spamming behind cover.

10

When a genji was literally two inches away from my turret throwing stars at it as my turret fired on a Rein shield far away, I realized Torb is in serious need of a focus fire.

2 Likes
11

I agree with the problems listed though I had my own thoughts about what would make him wholly unique:

  • Torbjorn’s armor pack delivery as an ABILITY is redundant. At every 50/200 he is going to chuck an armor pack. Why is this an ability? Instead change the Scrap passive to automatically dispense an armor pack as a set value is gained.

  • With the ability slot opened, create an ability that allows Torbjorn to wear his turret. L1 Turret gives him +100 Maximum Armor, L2 gives him +200 Maximum Armor. Turrets that ride on him still shoot targets but within a reduced radius of 20-25 meters as opposed to 40 meters. Turrets Hit Points when redeployed are whatever value Torbjorn’s current Armor is at time of redeployment (200 Armor = 200 Hit Turret Deployed) I would have turret deployment speed be around 3x faster than construction speed.

  • Molten Core can also be used with the turret equipped, with the same radius loss. as stated in the previous point.

12

except the engineers’ turret actually did damage. torb’s lv2 turret is a lv 1 sentry.

13

Not a Torbs player, but I also think he needs some dramatic rework.

I saw a video which mentioned some of his problems (sorry, no source this time) and the one that got me thinking about is that the turret performs well in low level games (say, it is like a silver player that can’t move) but that limits his viability on high level games. Increasing turret skill/damage/health would be problematic at the low end of SR (where I am kk), not actually solving the issue.

What I thought it could be an option is Torbs being able to ride his turret. It would be like a mini-bastion (without the minigun, of course), and in that mode there is damage / fire-rate bonus to turret plus Torbs get to aim. Upon destruction it would be like a D.Va mech thing, Torbs is out to his business again. If he is out before destruction, turret behaves as it does now. That way, skilled players can make a difference with the turret while not compromising gameplay at the lower end of SR spectrum.

I imagine that the focus fire would improve his viability too and it’s something I haven’t considered before. Auto-upgrade or radical changes might be more complicated to evaluate because of the intrinsic relationship of all characters.

What you guys think? A D.Va / Bastion hybrid from Sweden is too much? :grinning:

14
  1. Let Torb’s ult span across the entire map and last forever
  2. Let Torb wallride
15

Bumping the thread…

16

After Brig release I just realized how bad and boring Torb’s Armor pack is. I mean, Brig’s Repair pack is what Torb’s pack should have been from the beginning. But now, when Brig is much more fun and effective at how she delivers armor, I think that Torb’s Armor pack should be drastically reworked too. Or may be even removed and replaced with something more offensive and useful in combat.

17

I think that the turret could be deployed as a current level two, with mode switching controlled by several seconds of hammering the turret directly. The modes could be standard and double firing rate, however the turret has only a fixed quantity of ammo. Torbjorn could resupply the ammo using an armor pack.

18

The ideas here are interesting. I didn’t read them all, I’m going to toss an idea of mine out, sorry if it duplicates something already said.

  1. “Make Torb himself more powerful” OK this is a good idea. Let’s say we increase his damage output, and give him 200HP +50 Armor or something like that.

  2. “Make his turret better.” Nope, I think this is mutually exclusive with 1. So let’s say we put all of Torb better into his own power, and then we make his turret worse. His old turret I think used to require scrap to upgrade it. What if we went back to that? So now Torb has to pick between upgrading his turret and throwing armor. If he himself is more powerful, then most of the time he’ll just drop a level 1 turret and play as himself. This would solve the problem of “too bad in high ranks, too good in low” because he’s now far more dependent on player skill to make him good.

OK, that’s what I got. Just a thought, take it for what you will.

19

Best rework idea to go with Torbjorn’s Cybjorn Skin :

With the Cybjorn skin, Torbjorn is not just a Swedish Engineer anymore, he is a Swedish Cyborg Engineer. To go with this we need to tweak his kit as follows :

  1. Left Click : His left click should be changed in order to throw 3 tiny turrets in a straight line towards enemies. They will stick onto the enemy and keep damaging him.

  2. Right Click : This should make him throw 3 Turrets in a Cone Shape - V

  3. Shift Ability : Swift Turret : Torbjorn sits on his turret and swift strikes through enemies doing 200 damage to each enemy and for every elimination he gets his swift turret will be reset.

  4. turrflect : when he presses E he can deflect enemy fire using his Turret. He can even deflect Meele that enemy will hit themself or punch themself. And when his turflect hits the enemies it does 5 times more damage.

  5. Passive : Quadruple Jump and Wall crawl:
    Cybjorn can jump 4 times in air before touching ground and can crawl on walls and stick to walls like spiderman. He can also web swing using web from his turrets.

  6. Ultimate : Torbjorn shouts Tuurji no ken wo kuraeeee . In english : The turret becomes me! He whips out his long turret and kills everything without even moving an inch.

Please vote for best rework idea ever. xD