I mean yeah, the numbers can be adjusted so that the combo goes smoothly.
But the idea is to reduce the stun duration as small as is necessary.
Compelling argument. Really. Totally disproves what I said.
The lag concern alone really should be justification to not support such a change. But here’s the deal: 0.3 seconds is an incredibly short window. In fact, it’s about 0.1 seconds longer than the reaction time for a human to respond to an anticipated visual stimulus. In real terms, that means that even the most marginal hesitation = Tracer Recalls. And, because of the way Tracer’s Recall benefits from favor-the-defender, Brigitte cannot hit Tracer as she Recalls–she must do it amply beforehand. In theory, a “skilled” Brigitte could do this combo, but let’s also keep in mind that the same could be said of a “skilled” McCree or Roadhog–and we both know how effective they are in dealing with Tracer (unless you’re in pretty low tiers, not very).
Moreover, on a point that I haven’t even touched yet, Brigitte is about to get a huge nerf. It’s not like some 1 second SB nerf–this upcoming nerf is pretty enormous. And you’re suggesting more changes that would nerf her against her intended counters, and make her stronger against her “unintended” counters
People already gripe and complain about Brigitte’s damage, and it’s miserably low. I can’t imagine the whining if she actually had semi-decent damage.
Because stuns are fundamentally unfun.
Because it literally removes all control you have on a character.
Especially instant ones that are long with low risk.
So if you could get the same impact, but for a shorter stun. It would feel a lot better to play against.
Not to mention, would be less useful for GOATs type comps.
I really really don’t think the end of a stun has any impact on fouling up favor the shooter mechanics.
That said, how short of a stun duration would you say would be comfortable?
Keeping in mind McCree has 0.7sec and has to headshot.
If any CC bothers me in the game it will be Ana’s sleep dart. Stun is one thing, but that can be countered very easy. I just don’t like the fact that this stun is just going to benefit other heroes all over again for the sake of their playstyle than adapt. It’s like when they took Symmetra auto lock on beam away.
The stun is a 1 vs 1 contender than group.
You’re correct–but Tracer’s abilities benefit from some pretty powerful favor the defender mechanics which do screw with it. Unless you want to take those mechanics out, then to create a reliable counter to Tracer, you have to overcorrect. And taking those mechanics out for Tracer makes her pretty bad against other heroes, which is why they were added in the first place.
I think the current stun is fine… Brigitte gets substantially less benefit for using it than other heroes with a stun. She can only guarantee a kill on Tracer or an already-injured hero, whereas Doomfist and Hog can insta any squishie, and McCree can combo into killing nearly any tank in the game.
This is actually a very good example of why lowering the stun duration is bad. McCree is pretty inconsistent against Tracer–and while he does have to headshot, at close range, it’s not that hard to land a crit. But when you’re dealing with an absurdly mobile hero who gets mechanical protection from your attacks, it is very hard. And you’re proposing less than half that time–yeah, even for just a “hit,” that’s kinda unreasonable. You’re basically comparing a half-second window to crit to a 0.1 second window to hit.
Would a half second window work better? Yes, but I think it still suffers the same problems of being less reliable against Tracer and more powerful against other heroes.
I mean, we are reducing the number of actions by a third.
One would think at a minimum that would mean 0.66sec would probably be excessive.
Especially when I am not sure if the flail swing instantly damages or has to reach the middle point. Like Rein hammer.
So I started thinking about it a bit, and I’m thinking 0.7s would probably be the lowest we could reasonably go. At least for an initial change. That puts her stun at the same length as McCree’s while still giving her time to react. It puts her at 0.6s for one swing, and a Whip Shot immediately after. It’d still be cutting it close before Tracer can Recall, but if we’re going to change the duration, this would be one of the only changes that I would entertain.
Dunno, the bash and the rocketflail are instant damage. But the swing is a laggy startup.
And I’m not sure if the swing can be animation cancelled.
See point about low-mobility heroes. This is still an unnecessary buff against them. You’re basically increasing her burst DPS pretty drastically across the board, at the expense of being reliable against Tracer–which her anti-Tracer reliability has been and is being actively crippled.
No amount of tinkering with the stun duration changes that. There’s no need to change the combo right now. It’s easy and reliable with comparatively low reward to other stun combos, and its temporal availability is on the lower end while the spatial availability is the lowest of the stun combos.
That’s the thing, it’s easy and high reward. Just instantly stunning a hero for 1 second, with no damage, but almost no risk or skill needed, would still be high reward.
What do you think about this change instead of the current nerf? TLDR bash stuns targets with less health than brig but only short knockback for anyone with more health at the time of the bash.
I mean it would work, but I feel like that’s almost too specific to Tracer.
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It also means if someone else initiates first and can get rein below 250 health (or higher with rally) they can still go for the current combo but more resources have to be spent for her to do it
Uhh… no. It is not. As I stated: it’s the lowest damage of any stun combo in the game. It’s the most spatially-limited stun-combo in the game, especially with the upcoming barrier change. It’s not available at an appreciably greater rate than other stun combos (Doomfist has his more often, Roadhog is about equal, McCree has the lowest availability).
It’s easy, yes, but that’s the point. It must be easy to be reliable against a hero such as Tracer. It is not, however, high reward–no more so than any other stun, inherently, and the follow up is substantially lower. Reducing the stun duration doesn’t decrease the value of the stun itself–it still interrupts the same abilities as every other stun–but it does dictate the potential value of the follow-up, which is generally the greater determinant of value in a stun.
Is this actually on the PTR or just an idea? If it’s an idea I have to stop you there and point out that she will now have an unstoppable combo for all squishies. swing+bash+swing+whip is an inescapable combo now that does 225 damage.
Yes it does, because it makes it a lot harder for teammates to stack on damage on a target that’s nearly motionless for a whole second.
Hrmmm that is an extremely good point that invalidates my entire argument.
Guess it’s back to the workshop in this again.
Jesus christ did you just agree with me? Mods help I think the forums have a bug EVERYONE RUN. (But seriously though you are a rare specimen. I knew I liked people with that protoss icon for some reason. <3. I like the addition of animation cancels though, they add nuance)
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I don’t mind being wrong, I just really dislike it when people refuse to even consider an idea and reject it for non-gameplay reasons.
But give me a solid gameplay argument why I’m wrong. Yup. You win.
For instance, had a big Moira post earlier today which was mostly people arguing the semantics of what is and is not a projectile.
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