GM+ where does the SR come from?

Unless I’m being absolutely stupid and missing something obvious, where does the SR for GM+ come from?

Hear me out…
The only way to gain SR is for someone else to lose.

In diamond, there are people above you and below you, so the pool of available SR is vast. You can move up through diamond to masters and in doing so, other people will drop. The key point here is that there is always players above you at this rank, there is always SR available to take.

The only way that more SR is made available within the “pool” is by new accounts being placed into a rank, this creates new SR from nothing (nobody had to lose SR for this SR to be generated).

Even top500 players when they create new accounts, most of the time it’ll get placed high diamond / low masters, so the injection of new SR is only at those ranks.
Whilst it’s theoretically possible for a new account to be placed into GM, I’ve certainly never heard or seen it happen.

So at GM there is never this injection of new SR into the available pool.

By the very definition of this, it means that give or take, the potential maximum SR at GM level is essentially fixed.
This means that for anyone trying to get out of masters to GM, they need to take SR from that pool and ultimately means players will likely drop out of GM.

There is nobody above GM, therefore GM players cannot take SR from anyone above them to move up. They essentially need to just fight within GM for the available SR.

With this in mind, doesn’t that mean that the number of people that can be within GM is fixed?
There is nothing anyone can do to get into GM without someone else being moved out.

It also means that the higher those very very players get (4.6k+) that the less SR is available lower in GM and the population shrinks as a result.

Three scenarios:

  • A GM player wishes to take a break or quit, their account will decay.
    – This means the SR their account consumed from the GM SR pool is effectively removed by the system.
    – Nothing can ever replace that SR, it’s gone forever.
    – If that GM player ever comes back to Overwatch and wants to get back to their previous rank, they still get matched with GM’s (as matchmaking is based on MMR and not SR), so again they’re consuming even more SR from the available pool.
    – In other words, they’re “double dipping” into the GM SR pool and taking SR twice. Again this shrinks the GM population over time.

  • Alt accounts in GM
    – Very similar to decay, but in this instance one person is taking multiple players spots within GM, the available SR pool is being used by few actual people and the GM population again shrinks

  • Accounts being banned
    – again, exactly the same problem. The SR pool is fixed at GM, no new SR is ever created at this level.
    – So when an account is banned, that SR is taken with it and never replaced, the population shrinks etc.

Now consider that this has been going on since Season 2 when the system was changed, 9 seasons later, the SR pool has been depleted significantly and the population has shrunk massively.
No new players can get into GM within taking the spot of someone else.

Am I the only person to realise this is an issue and will continue to get worse?

I’d really love to hear the opinion from a developer on this, as I’m sure they must have talked about this very issue before.

Sooner or later, they will have to do a complete SR system reset and redistribute players.

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What are u having ??? I want the same thing man ! :sweat_smile:.

Havent out that much thought into it but here s some ideas

  1. When one climb from master to GM they take away SR from masters and not from Grand master necessarily . No ? I mean there are plenty of players that can rewch gm every season no ? I think u are confused in between gm rank (i.e >4000SR) and top500? Nothing stops anyone from ranking up and getting 4500sr. However u will notice the distrubutiin of players in each rank is quite stable over the season meaning it works as intended ?
  2. Insert that s not how it works meme*
  3. More of a questiin actually . Has the rank of top 1 player increased over the season .
    What was the highest amount of sr ever achieved ? If i m not wrong blizzard capped it at 5000SR right ? Wonder if anyone ever reached that lol.
  4. Ur post was mind buggin though so kuddos for that . Lol
    Cheers!

I’m a software developer, 34 years old, with a degree in math and computer science.

I’ve been thinking about this for literally weeks now and cannot come up with an answer.

5000 is the maximum SR and to the best of my knowledge nobody has reached this yet.

From 4000 on though, there is no rank above you. There is no “super GM” rank.
There is nowhere for additional SR to come from.

The available SR within GM is therefore fixed, no new SR can ever be generated, unlike lower ranks where new accounts get placed from fresh.

A masters player will take SR from other masters players up until the point they reach the breaking point between Masters and GM. Once they get past this point, they’re taking SR from other GM’s and as I mentioned, the SR pool is fixed.

So, for a masters player to become GM, a GM must drop.

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That is in fact an issue known for seasons. Top 500 players are not actually 500 because there are smurfs out there. So people protect their rank at GM+ by smurfing (playing enough to prevent decay and secure Top 500), locking new players from coming there.

The actual competitive mode is not zero sum based. Also now, above diamond, there are no PBSR that could generate SR without taking it from other players.

The only way to inject SR into the system above diamond is new accounts that can place Master or Above, but who can do that? Hey smurfs are indeed an important part of the system!

Then masters would fight to get GM+… It seems unfair? Because smurfing is indeed unfair but won’t be banned by Bliz because you know, money.

To sum up, the ranking system is a mess not made to be mathematically fair. And I’m not even talking about MMR that is used to match people…

I think it is made on purpose now, so if you want to tryhard you are meant to buy alt accounts and smurfs. This matchmaking I think will be remembered for decades in the video game industry as it is a very singular one. I personally hate it (but love the game).

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This kind of makes me think back to Halo 2’s ranking system… 1-50, but certainly weighted and constructed much better than whatever Blizzard is doing. Sorry that I don’t have a real answer… but just imo the modified ELO they’re using is totally borked, and the SR supply is just another question as to why it’s even being used.

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I’m glad I’m not being totally thick then.

I’ve honestly been thinking about this for weeks, certain that I must have missed something and that Blizzard must have catered for this situation somehow, however it seems they haven’t.

What makes me even think about this is that last season my main account got to GM for the first time. I’d been in masters since S4.

Time and time again I’d get to within 1 or 2 matches of GM, but never achieving it, it felt like an invisible wall blocking me.

When I finally hit GM last season, I reached 4.23k at peak, but mostly sit around 4k-4.1k for S9.
What I noticed were that the games were very different to masters. I got to know people by name, every match had people in it which I knew.
The competition was fierce in the second half of the season as everyone was tryharding to secure a t500 spot.

I also noticed that other mates who were GM were now in masters, yet I knew they were incredible players.

It started me thinking about the whole SR situation within GM and why certain things were happening, hence this thread.

There are a tonne of issues with SR and matchmaking that are regularly talked about here, but this topic I’ve not seen discussed and to me it’s an obvious issue which will only get worse, to the point where the GM population is so small that it’s not worth even playing.

Players that are pushing 4200+ sr lose more sr per loss than they gain per win. Watching streams of Dafran and Kragie (4600sr-4750sr) duo at the end of session 9, they lost around 20-25sr per loss but only gained 10-15sr per win. I assume this is how it works

Imagine a simplified system, where you have 1000 players, all starting at 2500 SR. At each round, people only play those at their own SR, winners gain 25 SR, losers lose 25 SR.

After one game, you have 500 players at 2525 SR, and 500 players and 2475 SR.

After two games, you have 250 players at 2550 SR, 500 players at 2500 SR and 250 players at 2450 SR.

After three games, you have 125 players at 2575 SR, 375 people at 2525 SR, 375 people at 2475 SR, and 125 people at 2425 SR.

And so forth. This toy example is following the binomial distribution. As time passes, the distribution spreads out and the peak falls. The thing that keeps the distribution from spreading out to infinity are that players can’t win every game, especially as they hit the top of the scale and Blizzard starts balancing the teams with lower players (as well as an applied SR debuff, “You gain less SR for a win than you lose for a defeat as you more closely approach the system’s mathematical upper limit 5000 SR.” – Scott Mercer, Overwatch Forums)

I have a much more detailed, and more realistic simulation in Matlab that I can share with you if you like.