Ew, Another 2/2/2 Discussion

[ReliableRez-1770]

ur opinion on 222 and one tricks is also personal and not based in any form of logic or fact.

Sure I’ll admit some of my opinion is biased, however when making this post I laid everything out and addressed it with an unbiased point of view. 2/2/2 will benefit this game, while harming some aspects, but I firmly believe the good outweighs the bad in this situation. Sure, some people have to suffer, but it’s for the good of the majority, rather than listening to the minority.

they’re encouraging that the basis of all comps should be 222 which isn’t bad! but the idea that i have to pre determine my role before any match, before i meet my teammates is pretty… dumb. maybe i don’t like tanking on this map, i’m bad at it but that’s what i queued oh well— lost game

why shouldn’t you have the predetermined thought of who you’re playing when you go in? The moment i see the loading screen for any map I automatically think of each hero excels within my own pool. R66? Cool gonna go Mercy for the mobility. Hanamura? Ana for that range. Volskaya? Moira so I can bounce balls everywhere. You should always have a game plan. And blaming your wins/losses on maps is just as bad as blaming your wins/losses to hero pools. If you can’t play a certain map, just go in a custom and study it.

And before someone accuses me of being a one trick, no. I play every single tank and i can also play support, so i always play what the team needs. I’m just better as a tank

And that’s a Main, not a One Trick. I’m a support main, but I dabble in MT, however on my record I’ve got like 300 hours on Mercy compared to maybe 100 (not including custom Scrims and PUGs) On Ana, Lucio, and Moira.

Do you guys think there’s a minimal number of DPS/Tank/Support that should be in every composition to work it out?

Definitely. You need at least 2 tanks, and 1 support MINIMUM. But preferably 2/2/2 is the cleanest set up that evenly distributes the responsibilities of the team.

i don’t personally find main tank hard on any map ?? so… and again, another example, if i queued for tank without knowing what map… let’s say it’s my “bad map for tank” and i relatively do bad because of it, then that’s another issue within role lock 222. that’s really it

You’re a walking contradiction, after this comment I’m not even giving you the grace of day.

I don’t know what you’re arguing here. There’s a lot of maybes and mights going on. Wishful thinking isn’t an argument.

My argument is general human curiosity. Like I said, a player will flex just to see if they’re any better or just want to see their placement, thanks to the individual SR system. They realize that they’re better on a role they never played, thus expanding. It’s like me Evolving from a Mercy One-Trick to Main Support Main to a Support/Tank Flex. I was forced to flex around the two roles due to scrims and I learned I"m a good Winston, Rein, and Dva.

Basic player behaviour tells you people want to play DPS

I think the behavior is more of they want to do damage and get the spotlight. DPS just allows that more often than not.

Won’t any more than it does now. You have a bad round 1, then either 2 everyone pulls together or they throw. That’s not going to change.

That has nothing to do with the previous statement though? What I’m saying is give it a month or two. People ragged on GOATs, until they saw how good it is when you know what you’re doing. And now it’s happening with Pulled Pork. Give it time and these strange, yet effective, 2/2/2 comps will come to light and will start gaining traction due to the forced role lock.

The playstyles, especially between Tanks and Supports, are so different that skills will lack. Being a good Reinhardt does not make you a good Zarya or D.Va.

Agreed. Being good at one Hero does not mean you’ll be good with another. But within a role, you know your job, and you know that the hero you’re playing will do that job, you just need to learn how. While if you’re trying to flex between roles on the fly, not only are you learning a new hero, you’re learning a whole new job as well.

[EFR-11282]

Man, we don’t know many things regarding 222. If it’s going to be only on comp or QP as well. If we will have to do 10 placements for each role.
I guess that separate SR will just be generated by the time you played heroes from each role and how you performed, but I not sure what else would they increase in every role SR analysis…

[EFR-11282]

Interesting. I would say that 2 supports instead of 1 is the minimum.

[ReliableRez-1770]

Interesting. I would say that 2 supports instead of 1 is the minimum.

Ana, Moira, and Mercy all allow for solo healing. One’s got sustain, one’s got burst, one’s got a mix of the two. While 2 supports would be nice, in my experience, 2 tanks and 1 support wins over 1 tank and 2 supports more often than not. And that’s just because of the health pool 2 tanks provides. A single support can farm an ult in seconds with two tanks to heal, while 2 supports has to share their healing with one tank. And a lot of the time, that support ult is a little more valuable than the tank ult.

If we will have to do 10 placements for each role.

I would prefer that. That would make it crisp and clean, while also increasing general play time on the game.

[Jessicka-1960]

I was forced to flex around

Literally nothing will compel you to do that now other than basic curiosity. Even if you like it, when you queue for your main roles, you might think ‘hey, a good D.Va would be useful right now, but I can’t switch’, so it’s wasted ability. So why waste your time committing to actually getting good?

I think the behavior is more of they want to do damage and get the spotlight. DPS just allows that more often than not.

Again, nothing will change that perception. And players will feel safe that they’re going to get committed tanks/supports to allow them to do that, but better and safer.

That has nothing to do with the previous statement though? What I’m saying is give it a month or two.

In a month or two the role tourism will have died off, people will be fully committed to their main roles.

People ragged on GOATs, until they saw how good it is when you know what you’re doing. And now it’s happening with Pulled Pork. Give it time and these strange, yet effective, 2/2/2 comps will come to light and will start gaining traction due to the forced role lock.

So, we’ll just get another Dive/Sniper/Pharah-Widow 2-2-2 meta locked in? Is that even better? I mean, we can already see from OWL the pros will be pretty much Pharmercy-Widow or Pharmercy-Sombra depending on map.

Agreed. Being good at one Hero does not mean you’ll be good with another. But within a role, you know your job, and you know that the hero you’re playing will do that job, you just need to learn how. While if you’re trying to flex between roles on the fly, not only are you learning a new hero, you’re learning a whole new job as well.

Such is the mechanical differences in playstyles and associated strategies, you are learning a whole new job when going from Bunker to Dive. I’m an alright Orisa, but not a great Winston.

[EFR-11282]

@JeffreyKaplan

We actually tried a mode we called “411” because it limited comps to 1 tank, 1 healer and the rest DPS.

It was not fun and we didn’t enjoy it. The way the game is tuned, the importance it placed on the lone tank or lone support was too significant. Also, we’ve all evolved as players since 2016 and we’re much better these days at melting the tank or melting the healer than we used to be. Once your lone tank or healer died, it felt like you were forced to completely regroup with no chance of pulling out a win.

It was a good experiment for us to try and led to a lot of good discussion. But yeah, wasn’t fun…

Even Jeff recognizes that solo Tank and solo Support is not fun.
So I guess whatever change they do, they will not let solo tank or solo support in it, maybe?

[Cytrode-1630]

As for Role Queue encouraging One Tricking I’m afraid I have to disagree there. The game is already designed from the floor up to encourage one tricking.

How well you perform on a hero compared to other players of the same hero is weighted heavily up to diamond rank so One Tricks will usually be rewarded with higher SR. Once you get to that higher SR by one tricking, however, it becomes difficult to ever branch out because you can’t play anything else at that SR.

Role Queue won’t do anything to directly discourage one tricking, this is true, but it will mitigate their potential negative impact per game while also giving them more accessible avenues for branching out via Role Based SR.

[Jessicka-1960]

As for Role Queue encouraging One Tricking I’m afraid I have to disagree there.

Well, to put it another way, it absolutely discourages flexibility.

[ReliableRez-1770]

Again, nothing will change that perception. And players will feel safe that they’re going to get committed tanks/supports to allow them to do that, but better and safer .

And that’s bad? That there’s a system that allows consistently good players to do consistently good?

In a month or two the role tourism will have died off, people will be fully committed to their main roles.

And again that has nothing to do with the original statement. The original statement was about 2/2/2 variety and the different types of comps that will come out with time.

So, we’ll just get another Dive/Sniper/Pharah-Widow 2-2-2 meta locked in? Is that even better? I mean, we can already see from OWL the pros will be pretty much Pharmercy-Widow or Pharmercy-Sombra depending on map.

At least these comps take skill and are counterable, rather than pressing W and holding left click.

Even Jeff recognizes that solo Tank and solo Support is not fun.

That’s what I’m talkin 'bout. Daddy Jeff backs me up

How well you perform on a hero compared to other players of the same hero is weighted heavily up to diamond rank so One Tricks will usually be rewarded with higher SR. Once you get to that higher SR by one tricking, however, it becomes difficult to ever branch out because you can’t play anything else at that SR.

Role Queue won’t do anything to directly discourage one tricking, this is true, but it will mitigate their potential negative impact per game while also giving them more accessible avenues for branching out via Role Based SR.

let me kiss you

Seriously, if OW didn’t at least encourage one tricking, there wouldnt be individual hero stats. Or trackable stats that mattered at least. And I don’t think people hate one tricks for valid reasons, I just think they don’t like being shown up and having their pride hurt. Dude I go try hard mode when I see an enemy Mercy. I am the better Mercy

[Cytrode-1630]

The game as it currently is already discourages flexibility by rewarding inflexible players with higher SR on average and offering no effective avenue for learning new roles without risking hundreds of SR or paying cash for an alternate account.

[Jessicka-1960]

And that’s bad? That there’s a system that allows consistently good players to do consistently good ?

It won’t be consistent though, we go through that in the later paragraphs. It just provides and illusion and ‘feel’ that they’ll be safe to go with their preferred hero.

The reality is that it won’t, they’ll still need to switch within roles, indeed there’ll be a greater need to, because 4 players out of 6 won’t be able to.

And again that has nothing to do with the original statement. The original statement was about 2/2/2 variety and the different types of comps that will come out with time.

What variety comes from a greater limitation on a player’s hero pool?

At least these comps take skill and are counterable, rather than pressing W and holding left click.

That’s not even an argument. It’s also absurd. Goats relied a lot on teamwork and coordination as well as ability with those heroes. There’s a reason Titans and SFS were basically untouchable while it dominated.

The game as it currently is already discourages flexibility by rewarding inflexible players with higher SR on average and offering no effective avenue for learning new roles without risking hundreds of SR or paying cash for an alternate account.

That’s an SR award issue, 2-2-2 does the opposite of fixing this. Indeed when a Genji or Junkrat is forced to switch to hitscan or lose to Pharah, they’re still going to suffer (and likely not actually switch anyway).

[KillerQueen-21171]

i agree with the title

still a decent post. mostly nothing new that i haven’t read before, but a decent post

[ReliableRez-1770]

It won’t be consistent though, we go through that in the later paragraphs. It just provides and illusion and ‘feel’ that they’ll be safe to go with their preferred hero .

I dunno about you but knowing that I"ll have a co support will help me stay calm during the hero select, knowing that regardless of what I pick or they pick, we will be working together. And If I’m consistently doing good on a specific role, I’m going to keep going that role, that’s how you learn what your main is.

What variety comes from a greater limitation on a player’s hero pool?

Pulled Pork, Rein/Zarya, Dive, Cyber Dive, Rein/Dva, Double Shield, Bunker. That’s all I can think of that’s just traditional.

Hard to build team comps while keeping it compact. I can give you a list of team comps that are technically 2/2/2 and aren’t traditional or Meta, while all still taking advantage of synergies and has a chance of working in game.

That’s not even an argument. It’s also absurd. Goats relied a lot on teamwork and coordination as well as ability with those heroes. There’s a reason Titans and SFS were basically untouchable while it dominated.

But you cannot pretend goats takes more skill than double sniper. And all the coordination it takes is making sure your Rein is a good Target/Shot Caller and your allies can keep their noses up your rear end, attacking whatever you are. The communication is “where, who, when, how?” which is usually “High Ground, Rein, In 5, Just drop and swing.”

i agree with the title

still a decent post. mostly nothing new that i haven’t read before, but a decent post

I just wanted to summarize what I’ve been reading and discussing with Owlet Admins about whether or not 2/2/2 will be standard next season, and I guess it’s good an argument didn’t start in the chat.

[Jessicka-1960]

I dunno about you but knowing that I"ll have a co support will help me stay calm during the hero select, knowing that regardless of what I pick or they pick, we will be working together. And If I’m consistently doing good on a specific role, I’m going to keep going that role, that’s how you learn what your main is.

Played with enough DPS Moiras/Zens/Anas to know having a co-support doesn’t necessarily mean much.

Hard to build team comps while keeping it compact. I can give you a list of team comps that are technically 2/2/2 and aren’t traditional or Meta, while all still taking advantage of synergies and has a chance of working in game.

And I could give you a list 3x as long that’s 2-2-2 but no one wants to see.

But you cannot pretend goats takes more skill than double sniper. And all the coordination it takes is making sure your Rein is a good Target/Shot Caller and your allies can keep their noses up your rear end, attacking whatever you are. The communication is “where, who, when, how?” which is usually “High Ground, Rein, In 5, Just drop and swing.”

What even? No. Just no. Your Zen/Ana/Zarya still need to get the picks. Again, there’d have been much less of a difference between the teams if it was such an easy comp, but again, you had two teams way out in front using it, and half the rest couldn’t use it at all.

You’re being ridiculous. I’m not even going to begin to countenance this argument.

[EFR-11282]

If they leave a way to flex behind I guess it would be locking 1 Tank, 1 Support, 1 Tank/Support flex, 2 DPS and 1 Flex all or something like that

[ƑĿǬȐƗDǞMǍŊ-1686]

pretty sure comp is the main mode

[ReliableRez-1770]

Played with enough DPS Moiras/Zens/Anas to know having a co-support doesn’t necessarily mean much.

Moira’s gotta do damage to refill her resource bar; Zen is literally a DPS Support, he’s the only support that can one-shot anybody that isn’t a tank; The Ana has no excuse and needs to be crucified.

And I could give you a list 3x as long that’s 2-2-2 but no one wants to see.

This ain’t a big dik contest. I was just giving an example of the flexibility that comes with 2/2/2 and how the lock won’t kill comp creativity.

What even? No. Just no. Your Zen/Ana/Zarya still need to get the picks.

Dude I’m being taught this comp. I’ve been learning how to play GOATs for months now. Sure, it’s not easy, but the premise is. The Rein is the bloodhound and the team follows him, killing whatever he decides. A lot of the time, it’s GOATs v GOATs, so the first target should usually be Rein, then Brig, then Zarya.

Your Zarya is there for the bubble and to keep the Rein alive, Ana is there for sleep and antinade. YOu don’t try to get range kills with GOATs, it’s entirely a ground comp. That’s why double sniper or Pharmercy completely swamps it.

If they leave a way to flex behind I guess it would be locking 1 Tank, 1 Support, 1 Tank/Support flex, 2 DPS and 1 Flex all or something like that

I’d say a Main for each role (Support main, Tank main, and DPS main), while having 3 flex players that can flex around the mains.

[Nerv-1478]

That’s a big debate in itself, some share your mindset of qp being for lols and fun others feel it should be a place to develop and practice for comp without risk of losing sr, maybe with separate sr for roles in comp it will favor your mindset more but personally I’m in the other camp still although I’ll concede that improvements need to be made to arcade if 2/2/2 does get implemented to qp because currently it’s miserable. They could add a non 2/2/2 qp mode to arcade but then you’re again splitting the player base

[Spoonman-1184]

pretty sure comp is the main mode

Blizzard has already stated many more people play QP than any other mode in the game. It’s not even close.

To fix the game they need to fix QP and fix Comp, FFA nonsense should be reserved for Arcade.

If I show up for an exhibition (qp) hockey game I don’t expect to see 4 forwards 2 defense and no goalie because the fellas just didn’t feel like playing that way today. This is the garbage you get in QP most of the time.

[EFR-11282]

But 111-3flex can end up with solo tank and solo support in a 141