D.Va is getting nerfed because Echo is too strong

[Knighthood-21706]

@DSPMankey-1515

Is it even possible to build a full ult bar before the explosion playing as Dva?

You can build it in 1.7 seconds without any kind of damage boost.

[Jake-1493]

@Krak-11516

Sadly it is normal to nerf heroes because of other heroes. Ashe got nerfed because of Mercy and Sigma got nerfed because of Orisa. Just as an example.

This is a very different circumstance. D.Va is being nerfed because echo can literally become dva with faster ult charge.

[Krak-11516]

A hero is being nerfed because of another hero. Its the same as Ashe getting nerfed over a Mercy boost.

One hero is influencing the balance changes of another.

[Knighthood-21706]

The difference is, that in this scenario the Heroes are on opposite teams.

D.Va never got any profit out of Echo being so strong when copying her (it’s actually quite the opposite), while Ashe getting Damage Boosted by Mercy certainly did.

[Jake-1493]

@Krak-11516

A hero is being nerfed because of another hero. Its the same as Ashe getting nerfed over a Mercy boost.

One hero is influencing the balance changes of another.

I don’t agree. This is a different circumstance, but would you say it’s the same thing if they increased the cost of D.va’s ult because echo dva builds it too quickly and can get too many bombs off?

[Terx2-1856]

It’s a good nerf to Echo without majorly effecting D.Va as it effects Echo.

I think this is a great way to clean up some of D.Va’s spaghetti code and not force a D.Va Echo mirror match on both sides.

[DRUNKINJEDI-11320]

i actually died to mech recall 3 times yesterday, i think thats 3 times more since they buffed her so… dont know what thats all about. oh well

[Krak-11516]

@Knighthood-21706

D.Va never got any profit out of Echo being so strong when copying her, while Ashe getting Damage Boosted by Mercy certainly did.

However it still the same as one hero influencing another hero’s balancing. Rather than these heroes getting the same type of nerf as another.

D.Va is getting nerfed because of Echo.

@Jake-1493

I don’t agree. This is a different circumstance, but would you say it’s the same thing if they increased the cost of D.va’s ult because echo dva builds it too quickly and can get too many bombs off?

I am not referring to the nerf itself, I am referring to the concept. The concept that heroes can lead to balance changes of others. Instead of the hero itself directing the changes.

It would be a different circumstance if Echo is not getting D.Va nerfed. Which does not seem like it.

[Knighthood-21706]

The problem is, that not the Hero who is profiting from the interaction (and causing issues because of it) is getting the nerf, but the Hero who didn’t profit from the interaction in any kind of way.

As far as I am aware we never had that happen before.

[Yin-1797]

@Dad76-1471

I know youre joking but the fact Ashe, Torb, and Hammond all get their ult charge while their ult is active is insane to me, especially with how many other ‘constructable’ ults dont have this. Symm and Orisa dont, what makes their buildable ults different from BOB?

Photon Barrier is 1680

BOB is 2240

Molten Core is 2142.

Minefield is 1540.

There’s a couple things here;

1. Difficulty in controlling damage output. BOB is easy enough to control and very expensive for a Damage ultimate. It is easy enough to completely block or negate all his damage. Same deal with Molten Core and same with Minefield. These are only one source of damage, likewise.
2. Symmetra’s ultimate is different. It’s barrier that doesn’t prevent other sources of damage from being used and maximized. Moreover, Symmetra can completely protect herself and her Sentries with Photon Barrier, whereas, risk is still required for Ashe and co. to apply additional damage from additional sources (moreover, it’s their source of damage, not the ultimate, that allows for continued ultimate charge, BOB can’t gain ultimate charge for Ashe)

@Slappy-1413

With or without Echo, Call Mech radius was really too generous.

The whole purpose of making it strong was to keep teams from intentionally staggering Baby Dva, not to make her a strategic suitcase nuke.

Right, but more to the point, the buff really was a net positive for Echo’s Duplication since she can play more “risky” or “reckless” and achieve some serious reward with it.

@DSPMankey-1515

Is it even possible to build a full ult bar before the explosion playing as Dva? At a certain point, no matter how good you are, you’re limited by fire rate. And if you can’t build a full ult bar, then the charge you do generate means nothing. You’re automatically given a remech once the explosion hits.

Used to be that you could back when Call Mech was cheaper and Self-Destruct had a longer cooldown. These days, it just not possible.

But for Echo it works.

@Knighthood-21706

You can build it in 1.7 seconds without any kind of damage boost.

And you have a remaining 1.3 seconds between that time and Re-meching to get that ult charge return. It’s not possible.

@Krak-11516

However it still the same as one hero influencing another hero’s balancing. Rather than these heroes getting the same type of nerf as another.

D.Va is getting nerfed because of Echo.

The change doesn’t effect D.va in a practical way. It’s not possible for D.va to re-mech fast enough.

@Knighthood-21706

The problem is, that not the Hero who is profiting from the interaction (and causing issues because of it) is getting the nerf, but the Hero who didn’t profit from the interaction in any kind of way.

Correct.

@ant-11471

the ult charge change is so irrelevant to d.va that it really is just exclusively a nerf to echo

Correct.

[Krak-11516]

@Yin-1797

The change doesn’t effect D.va in a practical way. It’s not possible for D.va to re-mech fast enough.

That was not my point to begin with.

[Knighthood-21706]

@Yin-1797

And you have a remaining 1.3 seconds between that time and Re-meching to get that ult charge return. It’s not possible.

Why do you keep repeating that it is impossible even though you have been proven wrong?

D.Va has enough damage output to gain the ult charge in time and there is nothing preventing her from using that ult charge before the MEKA explodes.

[Yin-1797]

@Knighthood-21706

Why do you keep repeating that it is impossible even though you have been proven wrong?

D.Va has enough damage output to gain the ult charge in time and there is nothing preventing her from using that ult charge before the MEKA explodes.

Okay, let’s try this again so that you understand what the problem is and why D.va can’t do it.

• D.va builds ultimate charge. Uses Self-Destruct

• Pilot D.va does damage to gain Ultimate Charge to Re-Mech

• Attempts Re-mech BEFORE Self-Destruct. Can’t do it, Re-Mech takes 2 seconds and targets will be dead before then, negating ultimate charge.

• Echo Duplicates in D.va. Builds Ultimate Charge

• Echo Uses Self-Destruct.

• Echo in Pilot D.va build Ultimate Charge to Re-Mech.

• Echo Re-Mechs and kills targets BEFORE Self-Destruct, netting ultimate charge gain for ANOTHER Self-Destruct.

Do you see where the problem is now?

[Knighthood-21706]

@Yin-1797

Attempts Re-mech BEFORE Self-Destruct. Can’t do it,

She can use remech after 1.7 seconds.

The whole Echo thing doesn’t have anything to do with this fact.

[Qronot-2499]

@Sly-13591

D.Va would literally need to hit 100% accuracy plus a handful of crits in order for her to be able to get call mech before her nuke goes off.

Or you just boop any tank of the map with the same boop you throw the bomb with. Depending on the map its really not that unlikely, sure it won’t happen regularly but it will happen and i don’t think its fair to remove the possibility from dva when it was never a problem for her.

@Yin-1797

Attempts Re-mech BEFORE Self-Destruct. Can’t do it, Re-Mech takes 2 seconds and targets will be dead before then, negating ultimate charge.

So what if re mech takes 2 seconds and the bomb goes of before its called down? She will still be able to initiate the call down before the bomb goes off (shaving of more then a second) and its not like you need to bomb and recall the exact same area.

[Yin-1797]

@Qronot-2499

So what if re mech takes 2 seconds and the bomb goes of before its called down? She will still be able to initiate the call down before the bomb goes off (shaving of more then a second) and its not like you need to bomb and recall the exact same area.

The problem is the ultimate charge. You need to re-mech completely BEFORE Self-Destruct goes off to get the Ultimate Charge. If you re-mech at the same time (1.7 seconds means you have 1.3 seconds left before Self Destruct goes off and it’s take 2 seconds for Re-Mech to happen). It’s just not possible for D.va to get that ultimate charge. But for Echo, it’s possible and that return is substantial enough to put out another Self-Destruct and do it over again.

Therefore, Echo could put two Self-Destructs within 6 seconds. Pilot D.va can’t get ultimate charge from Re-Meching during Self-Destruct, because the targets will be dead before that happens. Or she simply doesn’t have the time. The change is mainly there to effect that.

[Knighthood-21706]

At least as far as I am aware Self Destruct damage doesn’t give you Ult Charge towards Self Destruct (otherwise they could have simply changed that instead).

The issue that caused this nerf was, that you could use Self Destruct and Call Mech at the same time making it very hard for people to find cover.

[Nere-2268]

Pilot dva could hilariously melee someone at a lower edge, have them drop and get full ulti charge before her bomb explodes. Since melee counts as knockback.

Imagine meleeing a wrecking ball being booped by a lucio just as they piledrive and stealing the ulti charge for call mech.

[Epic-12892]

What they should do is lengthen how long it takes to Call Mech, increase the dmg it does, increase radius, and have a louder call for it. It would be like her nuke but 2nd round.

[Qronot-2499]

@Yin-1797

It’s just not possible for D.va to get that ultimate charge.

Who cares? This change will make it impossible for a dva to use re-mech earlier then expected if they somehow managed to build it up before the bomb exploded. That’s the problem.

@Nere-2268

Imagine meleeing a wrecking ball being booped by a lucio just as they piledrive and stealing the ulti charge for call mech

Exactly, and then crushing a brig that didn’t expect re-mech for another second. It would be hilarious and memorable.