Doomfist, Brigitte and Sombra is killing OW

[Radek-11748]

While it is true that Tracer and Genji have had complaints for most of their active meta life (90% of the game), it was never as simple as them being unfun to fight.

Whenever I see a post about balancing Tracer, it is always based around finding creative ways other heroes could be tuned to help counter her. As it stands, she has very little stopping her from dominating. But her damage has always been (relatively)slowly added up, giving you plenty of time to either damage her enough to retreat or kill her outright. Add this to her limited vertical mobility and that she has no CC, and we find just a very challenging hero.

Moving on to Genji, most arguments that aren’t about how insanely powerful it ultimate is(was) are more about deflect having a hitbox the size of the moon. Sometimes it does devolve in to how unfun it is to fight against a deflect like that, but the problem is being worked now that they finally adjusted the hitbox on deflect. If only they could do the same to Swift Strike too!

So there, the 2 heroes mentioned whos complains weren’t about how they are unfun to fight, but more about how their kits are simply too powerful or lack counterplay.

Dive meta is trash, Doomfist is part of dive. Its literally all he does.

Removing the characters you want won’t make anything better.

Lets be fair, we don’t really want them removed. But I will say that removing them would be better than having them stay in their current state.

[McCam-1696]

Sombra’s design hasn’t much changed at all. She’s just annoying and her hack is what sets you up to get killed but so does discord and nobody says anything to that. Also Doomfist is a answer to Brigitte and Doomfist can also be a anti-dive hero same for Sombra.

Sombra isn’t much of a problem but i could understand Doomfist but there’s not much you can do to a character who’s the size of a tank but doesn’t hold the HP for it unless he hits you.

Brigitte is annoying because she destroys anybody not playing like a team and not focusing her first. I like Brigitte because she protects me as Ana unlike some other dps can.

It’s just that she’s frustrating because she isn’t easy to take down but besides with certain characters.

[Radek-11748]

Sombra’s design hasn’t much changed at all. She’s just annoying and her hack is what sets you up to get killed but so does discord and nobody says anything to that. Also Doomfist is a answer to Brigitte and Doomfist can also be a anti-dive hero same for Sombra.

Comparing discord to hack this way… I don’t know where to begin in describing the vast differences between these 2 abilities.

Simply put, hack limits and in some cases removes characters ability to fight back or defend themselves. Discord is a simple damage taken debuff. They really are not even in the same league.

Sombra isn’t much of a problem but i could understand Doomfist but there’s not much you can do to a character who’s the size of a tank but doesn’t hold the HP for it unless he hits you.

Sombra is an odd one, I said before I believe that as a hero she is weak. Its just that hack is a very imbalanced ability that cripples some (Rein), while barely affecting others. Its like the devs channeled all her power in to hack, and none in to Sombra herself.

Doomfist is a character who has an easy time jumping on someone and deleting them from the game. Whether or not he gets punished for doing so is irrelevant. (note, he often doesn’t and can follow up after a few seconds) In addition, a failed dive isn’t lethal for him either, as most save the punch for a quick escape.

Much like snipers who manage to headshot you, you’re simply dead. No real warning or ability to respond, you’re simply dead. Most of the time its slam-shoot-upper-shoot, and he doesn’t make the big growly noises that people say he does when doing this combo. If the combo took longer to pull off allowing people to react, then we will probably having a different discussion here.

Brigitte

I made a comment on what makers her presence undeniable earlier. She is a must-kill that is very hard to kill. While not as egregious as Doomfist or as annoying as Sombra, her mere presence changes the entire dynamic of the game from the opposing side and stops you from playing certain heroes outright. Its not healthy for the game, in my opinion.

[Soleil-11791]

Good riddance.

[McCam-1696]

I can compared Discord to Hack because which one has been way more relevant? Also Discord has no cooldown and way less counterplay. Hack has tons of counterplay and the devs did move Sombra’s power away from hack back when she got nerf. Sombra’s hack is overall besides worst in pulling off compared to back then. They moved her power into translocator and stealth which is why people are complaining about Hack because she can much easily catch you off guard with Hack because of those buffs. Also In fact EMP spam was better and stronger with a team who knew how to play with Sombra.

When it comes to Brigitte nobody bothers to focus her as hard as they do like how they do to Bastion. If Brigitte is not here the game goes back to its old ways or worst and with Brigitte here the game changes.

Also Doomfist makes a lot of noise to give you warning that he’s about to strike and there is way more risk to him compared to snipers. Mei and Sombra are counters to him but people don’t like them as well. So basically its a lose-lose situation for a lot of people.

[Halofreak90-2566]

@Radek-11748

I am afraid I disagree almost completely. Games are meant to be fun, and you can have a fun challenge. Most characters in this game represent a fun challenge for you to face. When the challenge is not fun, as is the case with Doomfist, Sombra somewhat, and Brigitte, you just don’t want to play.

You, like many other people on these forums, seem to have little knowledge of proper game design.

@Titanium-1686

Shall we dive into a bit of player perspective philosophy?

Unless the hero is a balance concern, Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s character isn’t relevant. It is given that Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s character is likely negative when playing against Player 1. On the other hand, Player 1’s perception of Player 1’s character is not a given in any videogame. For the videogame to be successful, Player 1’s perception of their own character, or how it feels to play their own character, needs to be positive. If that perception is negative, players will stop playing. As a result, Player 1’s experience with Player 1’s character is infinitely more important than Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s character.

In short, a player needs to feel empowered by their own actions. The player does not need to feel empowered, and in a PvP game, should not and will not feel empowered, by the actions of their opponents.

Now, guess where things went wrong:

@Titanium-1686

Player 1’s experience with Player 1’s character was breached and disregarded when Blizzard tried to make Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s hero positive… which they also failed to do. By attempting to change that which neither needed to be changed nor could be changed, the balance team tampered with something that should never be altered.

[Radek-11748]

Discord has no cooldown and way less counterplay. Hack has tons of counterplay and the devs did move Sombra’s power away from hack back when she got nerf. Sombra’s hack is overall besides worst in pulling off compared to back then. They moved her power into translocator and stealth which is why people are complaining about Hack

But in the end, discord is a simple damage taken debuff compared to a complete ability removal that is hack.

And you may say the took power away and gave it to the translocator and stealth, but myself a few others would say that its not really the case. While I enjoy the new translocator, the new stealth is a little iffy and I’d rather her have another ability to complement her actual weapon.

When it comes to Brigitte nobody bothers to focus her as hard as they do like how they do to Bastion.

Brigitte is exceptionally good at defending herself. If you can find her away from her team, then good job. But unlike bastion she is very mobile and heals her team as well.

Also Doomfist makes a lot of noise to give you warning that he’s about to strike and there is way more risk to him compared to snipers.

He does have more risk than snipers, but snipers deal with sightlines and range limitations. And as for the noise, his primary combo is a lot quieter than his rocket punch, and most of his kills are from that ability combined with uppercut.

You, like many other people on these forums, seem to have little knowledge of proper game design.

Everything you quoted is almost entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand as we are looking at Player 2 characters effect on Player 1’s, and not Player 1’s perception of their own character.

I’ve worked and studied with game design, its a very broad topic that has many approaches.

The flaw here that I am trying to address is agency, and that some characters like Doomfist, Brigitte, and Sombra, take agency away from a player and that significantly subtracts from their experience.

[edit] to elaborate:

Sombra is entirely obvious, she takes your abilities away for a considerable amount of time.

Doomfist is less so, but its about your inability to properly react and respond to the game telling you that you’re under attack. Snipers face the same issue, but generations of FPS games have ingrained in to people how to deal with this. Its still a problem, but less so. its why one hit kills are fairly well despised by a large amount of people.

Brigitte is less obvious. You can’t dive a Brigitte, she is a sitting fortress that requires a coordinate attack from multiple people to breach. Its possible and rather easy in a coordinated team, which would be why we see so little of her in OWL/WC and other highly competitive games. A player doesn’t feel powerful enough on their own to take her on, and do not trust in their teams ability to back them up. They may as well be spectators to the game happening in front of them.

[Krojack-1117]

I have an idea. Lets just remove every single her except Soldier 76. We can just go back to the old limited 1 type of hero to play for an FPS. Will that be more fun?

[Halofreak90-2566]

Everything you quoted is almost entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand as we are looking at Player 2 characters effect on Player 1’s, and not Player 1’s perception of their own character.

I’ve worked and studied with game design, its a very broad topic that has many approaches.

The flaw here that I am trying to address is agency, and that some characters like Doomfist, Brigitte, and Sombra, take agency away from a player and that significantly subtracts from their experience.

Like the text I quoted implies, that is completely irrelevant, assuming the characters in question are balanced. Just like Ultimate abilities are not supposed to be fun to play against, so are certain characters when they’re matched up against yours. Doomfist is not supposed to be fun to play against unless you are playing his counter(s). The same goes for the other two characters mentioned by the OP.

The problem is people simply refuse to switch and want to be able to play their character ad infinitum, which is not how this game works, or is supposed to work.

[Krojack-1117]

I can’t wait till OWL starts up again and seeing Doomfist on every team just spawn camping. Oh wait that won’t happen because those team work together. Also they most likely have good Ana players that can just sleep dart DM.

I’ve played Ana in diamond. I’ve landed sleep darts on those “annoying” heroes. I then tell the team and someone comes back and kills said sleeping hero.

[Garth-21453]

Why be so dramatic? We just want heroes like Doomfist to either be vastly underpowered or banned from competitive.

[Halofreak90-2566]

And that’s why we don’t want you playing this game.

[Garth-21453]

You still haven’t told me your current rank.

[Krojack-1117]

I bet you’re also the type of person to walk into a Junkrat grenade then complain that he’s UNFUN and needs to be removed or nerfed.

[Halofreak90-2566]

And that is relevant, because?

[Radek-11748]

Like the text I quoted implies, that is completely irrelevant, assuming the characters in question are balanced. Just like Ultimate abilities are not supposed to be fun to play against, so are certain characters when they’re matched up against yours. Doomfist is not supposed to be fun to play against unless you are playing his counter(s). The same goes for the other two characters mentioned by the OP.

The problem is people simply refuse to switch and want to be able to play their character ad infinitum, which is not how this game works, or is supposed to work.

You’re putting too much emphasis on the fun aspect when I tried to turn this to a more technical examination when you brought up game design. Address the issue of agency with these characters which I believe is the real problem.

[Garth-21453]

If you honestly don’t know why it’s relevant then I won’t bother giving you an answer either.

[McCam-1696]

You’re right about Bastion when he’s alone but when he’s not alone teams somehow manage to put all their focus into the Bastion who’s behind the shield or his team when trying he’s trying to run away.

Doomfist players learned that style of play because of RP being so bad for so long. Now everybody wants their new play style they adapted to, to get nerf as well. It took so long for people to realize its not his RP its his combo and only found out becaue he was used more.

Sombra’s kit one way or another would have been added to the game sooner or later because of how fast the game is. I don’t see how Sombra is a complaint now when she was the 2nd released hero brought into the game.

It’s mostly because she’s more relevant and more seen so nobody wants to see her as much so making her bad will make this happen. It’s the same of how people feel towards Mei and will ask for Mei nerfs when she shows up a lot.

[Halofreak90-2566]

Given the fact that this topic is centered around the three mentioned heroes being ‘unfun to play against’, I think my emphasizing the fun aspect is more appropriate.

This game has seen far too many changes because things were ‘unfun to play against’, and most of those turned out quite disastrous for the characters that were changed.

[Garth-21453]

I just noticed that some of you are not even playing on PC.

Why do you even bother replying to this thread? OW on PC and consoles are like two completely different games in Master+SR.

Doomfist might be not so obnoxious on consoles but that’s because the mechanical skill levels are much lower on consoles.