Does Symmetra really need any changes?

Pretending that Sym is alright is insanity or willful ignorance at this point.

Sym stopped being a niche but very strong defense specialist and became a gimmicky flank route creator for her team, tactic that becomes unviable as you climb and ONLY works on very specific maps.

The rest has been intentionally nerfed because they know team TP on a basic skill is a too strong of an ability to be on a functional dps hero.

Sym 3.0 is a fundamental failure. Just reverting TP to non-infinite wont do much, it will just make her slightly less bad and not solve any of her issues as a dps hero. At this point she needs a rework that takes 2.0 and adds the few good changes that 3.0 did, like orb travel buffs or flying deploy sentries.

If she needs changes, Sym needs AT LEAST, to have basic skill team TP removed. Its not healthy for her, in all its incarnations. She has been nerfed around it several times now.

There is no way to balance a hero that must be a functional dps hero AND has that kind of potentially overpowered utility. And to a lesser degree, TP sentrybomb also is holding her back because TP allows Sym to completly bypass all the weaknesses that Sentries are supposed to have, for a completly uninteractive, no risk nuke that she is FORCED to use because her gun is downright pathetic.

I didn’t know how to play her and thought she could use a buff.
But once I figured out how to charge up her beam… psh I think she’s fine honestly.
Maybe an extra 25health wouldn’t be so bad since she doesn’t have great mobility (aside from her tele which … lets be real, that’s just to get back to point faster from spawn or to get past all the enemy sym turrets). When someone’s in your face and you realize it’s a lost fight, you’re kinda just outta luck.

One key change she needs:

A design philosophy. Right now she can do many things, but is sub par in all of them.

It’s like building an RPG character. Yeah you can tank, heal and do magic damage but:

Your healing only heals 50 hp out of your 1000 HP. Your tanking ability only reduces damage by 5% for 3 seconds and your magic attack is a small combustion ability you can only use twice.

Sounds like they’re OP right?

Symmetra just needs to have a focus. If she’s a builder make her buildings strong/useful. If she’s a close range hero, beam emphasis with mobility/survivability.

Pick one and balance around it.

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Symetra seems fine to me.

Any hero in this game needs support. Hence, any hero that doesn’t get adequate support looks like trash.

So much as pick her in comp, you will more then likely get reported for gameplay sabotage by your team.

and get sportsmanship endorements from the enemy team <.<

her base design is, shes a glass cannon that needs a few seconds of staying alive before she becomes an active threat.

Problem is, she dont have the weapon range, nor hp to pull that off most of the time against other heroes who will just twoshot her and lol.

effective range of a weapon is simply determined by fall-off. range at 25m away it’s so slow it gives a whole second for targeta to reactively dodge a fired orb. at 15m it’s 0.6s.

For reference,

they are slow. and that slowness makes them not effective at range because it makes the players a less of a factor in making them land.

like would you say genji’s shurikens are being effective if you were sniping a far away target? obvs not because the target has plenty of time to see them and dodge them which you have no control over. same principle applies to sym’s orbs but more severe because they’re much slower (speed literally less than half if genji’s shurikens) i.e. see that effect even in shorter ranges.

I said that to appeal to the many that lump them together under the umbrella term “utility heroes”. take it up with them if you have a problem.

the fact of the matter is that sym cannot reasonably independently obtain opportunities to do her job unlike the rest of the damage cast.

the same as her weapon which is about ~15m at best when including orbs.

turrets are inconsistent damage sources pretty much irrespective of range due to how easily destructible they are, how they need enemies to walk to them for them to damage (high waiting time compared to time damaging) and how the player has no control on targetting on them. Given all this inconsistency, you can’t reasonably consider turrets as a substitute nor an equivalent to a hero’s weapon when considering a hero’s effective range.

idk whether you missed the words “sustain” and “delays” or completely misunderstood them. we’re talking about how sym is somehow expected to somehow stay alive in her so short effective range for at least 2.5~3s (either 2 orbs factoring aiming or primary charge up time; not even talking about time for actually utilising lvl3 beam yet) with low mobility, nothing to really help her keep her alive for that time reasonably in her kit and while many heroes have a ttk on her of like 1~2.5s…
I mean even shallowly looking at how all these weakness stack up against her whereas that not being the case for most others would already be a large red flag in showing that she’s lacking.

it was a a legit reason. Geoff specifically talked about sym being too niche in being a defence only hero and wanted to make her more flexible, viable on attack and dynamic, i.e. addressing the “why do I have to change my entire comp and playstyle to cater for a sym pick?” complaint which was legit very rampant.

- emphasis added to direct you

not denying that they wanted to make the kit able to put out more damage (they explicitly said that too), but my point there is definitely a legit one.

I mean given that it can’t headshot, the charge time is on par with dps snipers and the damage it deals is the same as a sniper body shot, I don’t see really a reason why a guaranteed less consistent weapon should be dealing less damage too if it lands. like doing a bit of compensation nerfing on splash radius, hitbox size and/or turret dps I get and I’m fine with if reasonable and necessary, but I don’t see how it’d be too high damage when comparing to other heroes’ weapons with similar conditions/traits.

like I said faster orbs I wasn’t talking like hanzo, ana or mei >=100m/s projectile fast, but moreso like 30~35m/s-ish.

if they want sym to have utility capability, tp fits very well in that it can be team utility or sym’s personal engagement and disengagement tool. the key thing is it needs to strike the right balance of:

  • having high enough cast frequency to let sym optimise and fluidly repurpose it (i.e. can fluidly transition between team use and personal use and when she wants/needs to)
  • lasting long enough to still need some commitment from sym and/or team to a placement
  • and being able to reward enemies in destroying it and punishing sym for poor placement

and you may say “blizz can’t do that” but the thing is, they were pretty much on the mark with non-infinite tp as that version of tp ticked all those boxes.

what went wrong is blizzard decided to put in infinite tp with an absolutely horrible cd mechanic which made it not satisfy the 1st point and being to harsh on sym on the others.

it is only useful if the hero can let themselves not take damage for 3s and still somehow can provide value during that time or somehow “catch up”/not lose out on value if they do so. for sym, she doesn’t have that capability and often requires her to hard disengage to be able to utilise it i.e. often either shield regen isn’t helpful or she isn’t helpful to use shield regen.

if sym gets something to let her kinda of trigger it at will or let her trigger it sooner, I think it’d be a really good solution to her lack of sustain without creating a 2nd reaper case (since shield regen is cancelled by any damage received and we’re not talking about overheal here).

it is more situational when you consider the fact that it has a pretty long charge up from low dps (long delay) and that we’re talking about a squishy hero with low mobility options and low sustain options.

like rein hammer and zarya’s weapon start off with higher dps, have much higher hp, have more available barriers and in zarya’s case has more range which let them gap close and live long enough when in range for their TTK on squishies which is just above 2s (TTK rein and zarya are is than 2s even if we’re assuming a constant 180dps damage source esp when taking barriers into account). that is not the case for sym even with the above suggested changes (assuming done reasonably/fairly).

which other damage hero has neither an on-demand escape or self sustain option? :thinking:

how many of them have both low effective range and low sustain?

you’re disregarding the destructibility and the waiting restrictions on them as explained above in this comment.

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I just enjoyed her when her kit was coherent and fun. It wasn’t even over centralizing to the game she was a viable niche character before the rework. If anything she could have gone with a small nerf to shield gens duration to make her fine

Now Frankenstein has created a horrendous monstrosity out of the gutted kit of 2.0

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Because she is by far not an alrounder like Junk or Soldier and she has no niche or synergy where she can shine like Phara or Bastion (yes i said it … deal with it!). The only time she is an outstanding pick right now is Hanamura 1st point attack when you pull a sneaky on the enemy team.

This ignorant nonsense again.

“I don’t play her but I’m sure you’re all doing it wrong anyway.”

Prediction is important for projectile heroes as they need to lead in with their shots, and that includes Symmetra and all other heroes, you can’t really use projectile travel times as a way or arguing effective range as these heroes can reliably predict where their opponent will be when their shots land or the direction of where they want to aim. Symmetra has to pull double duty here in charging up and predicting and leading the shots, but that doesn’t really indicate an effective range.

In your example above, Pharah frequently engages at ranges greater than 20 meters while in flight and still reliably lands her shots as it is a necessary skill for her. Mei’s RMB is less about precision aiming and more akin to suppressive fire and poke. And likewise, Symmetra can utilize her RMB both as a suppressive option (since they travel slowly and continue to threaten that path) and as a damage option at short range (less time to react). That flexibility is not available to everyone.

The same argument applies to Torbjorn and his turrets, and Junkrat’s traps. But while Torbjorn and Junkrat are stuck with one device, Symmetra has three.

If you’re spending that much time on any single target, without sentries and attempting to ram LMB through on a killing, you’re probably taking too long, or you’re engaging a tank.

Again, this argument falls part because Symmetra’s risk must be sufficiently equal to that of other targets who have to use their abilities to maintain their power, and not Symmetra who must only be allowed to use her LMB to engage. It doesn’t work that way. If every other character is required to maintain maximum efficiency to utilize their cooldowns to order to maintain an edge, that by that token, Symmetra is also required to do so. You cannot just run around willy-nilly holding LMB and expect to win. Especially for one who has 3 additional sources of damage able to attack at every angle.

Certainly applied when they first changed her and gave her photon barrier as an ability before being made into an ultimate, now, however, it’s pretty clear she’s still very defensive-oriented. This is not a problem, had Blizzard kept the divisions between Offense and Defense classifications alive, but since they didn’t and since they still can’t communicate and there’s a lot of misinformation (see main-tank and off-tank issues), that’s on them.

If they want offer stronger options on offense, they will need to do more work on her abilities. The framework is there, but as a functioning character in terms of viability and space control, she already has it, and the argument here is still specious.

Certainly plausible, I’ve no qualms with a minor increase here, damage wouldn’t even need to be adjusted.

They can change it up as many times as they like, but it will still be far too specific a crutch for Symmetra to work with in a fast-paced game like Overwatch. It they really wanted to match up with their vision of making her more useful on attack, they could easily remove teleporter and give her another builder-like option that would enable more aggressive attempt at grabbing space. Something like Iron Man’s Photon Cannon from Marvel vs. Capcom on a lengthy cooldown that despawns after one 3 to 4 second shot.

This is ignoring a lot of common cases where shield health and regeneration is useful.

And similarly, Symmetra has the tools to make it work in situations that are advantageous to her, just as Zarya and Reinhardt have similar situations where they can use their situational options in situations advantageous to them. Just because the situation differs between the three above, doesn’t make it more or less situational. The only difference is the application.

McCree, Ashe, Bastion and Zenyatta. With McCree, he’s largely a do-or-die hero. Ashe, at best and push her and her target some distance, but others complain about her huge hitbox (she’s the least likely, admiitedly). Bastion is a huge target, cannot heal and fire at the same time, and his healing doesn’t do much for him either way.

Doomfist, Winston, Torbjorn. Though, given Torb’s projectile options, arcing as it were, his effective range could be much longer. Tracer’s another hero with low sustain and short range.

Three sources of damage at three different angles place in three diferent places.

Pharah don’t need direct hits to be an asset for the team. Her rockets have a huge area of effect, and while they don’t deal as much damage as a direct hit, it chip enough to be an hassle and let your teammates finish them off easier.

Sym “splash damage” radius is almost non existent, and it have distance decay. If you get two tanks touching it other, and direct hit one of them, the other will take around 20 damage or less.

Plus, Pharah rockets are still faster.

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Pharah’s splash radius is 2.5 meters.
Symmetra’s splash radius is 2 meters.
Junkrat’s splash raidus is 2 meters and 3 meters on concussion mines.
Zarya’s splash radius is 2.5 meters (it used to be up to 3 meters at max charge, but that’s typical of tanks)
Ashe’s dynamite splash is 5 meters.

If you think the issue is in splash damage, wel…

Pharah’s ranges from 20 to 65
Symmetra’s is 15 to 60

And you’re right, Pharah’s rockets are faster, but the numbers are still comparable, and Symmetra has more options for engagements that Pharah does.

The issue with Sym vs Pharah is not the splash, its the fact that Pharah is much safer that Sym by being in the air AND being in the air gives her an effective ‘‘area of bombardment’’ much much bigger that Sym’s who is footlocked. The airbone angle does a world of difference.

Also you are severely understimating how much Pharah can spam her rockets in the same time that Sym can. Pharah doesnt need to charge her rockets, and she has a much faster firing rate that Sym, and the travel time differences are insane.

Look, there is a reason why Junkrat can arc his primary shots and shoot way faster that Sym can. And STILL have mobility. A splash weapon like Sym’s is very ineffective without the ability to bypass shields and natural cover, or to spam it at high frecuency.

Sym’s orb is used as a melee close range tool by basically everyone playing Sym because at any range beyond 15m or so it becomes enemy healer ult charge. There is a reason why people miss 2.0 orbs because they could put big pressure into barrier tanks.

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Yeah:

  • Symm orb: 120 dps, 25 m/s
  • Pharah rocket: 160 dps, 35 m/s
  • Junkrat grenade: 194 dps, 25 m/s

Symm’s orbs have low comparative dps while still being easy to juke. If their speed was buffed to 35 m/s they would still be on the weak side. (I think 35 m/s would be a fine if her beam range was buffed to 15 m as well.)

We can quibble about the details, but at the end of the day Symm’s average damage per match is ~80% of what Pharah, Junkrat and Torb pump out. These numerical differences have a pretty obvious impact on how much value she provides to the team over the course of a match.

This.

The issue is that in the end of they day Blizz could need to remove basic skill team TP so that they can feel confident into buffing the rest of her kit.

(Truth is Sym could have both team TP and be a functional DPS hero not be broken OP, but Blizz doesnt want her in pro play so…)

But that wont happen because they priorize their collective dev ego over hero design. One of their bros coined the idea, and so it stays.

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if they’re moving so slow that you have enough time to dodge, you will and whatever prediction involved with that shot, regardless of how good it was, won’t matter because you reacting to it and having enough time to do so just changed everything the prediction was based on i.e. invalidating it.

not to mention both then longer it takes to reach a target, the more likely it is for targets to see it and the fact that the longer it takes to reach x distance the less accurate you can be with any prediction since the the set of possible outcomes expands (i.e. guessing what will happen 0.1s later is inherently much easier than guessing what’d happen >5s later).

like I said earlier, these are the same reasons as to why genji’s a really inconsistent at landing when shooting at a really far away target no matter how good the genji player is.

out of the shots taken in the following video by Valkia (well known high ranked pharah player), how many that landed were BOTH:

  • shot >20m away AND
  • the target wasn’t being restricted in movement (i.e. not cc’ed to a fixed trajectory, not falling in the air because air control is limited, not self slowed from scope or shield, not stuck in narrow passages etc.)

and another thing to note is pharah flies i.e. gets angles where most won’t look for most of the match time (given that everyone else would be close to some sort of ground whether ground level or on some platform) which sym doesn’t have access to either esp now that non-infinite tp is gone.

ummm…yeah and both torb’s and junkrat’s effective range aren’t determined by their turret or trap. they’re both determined by parts of their kit that they have direct control over to get damage role value out of, namely their weapon. I don’t see why sym having 3 turrets which are much more fragile would change that principle esp since sym is definitely more reliant on weapon use to get valuable damage done/kills.

like your logic really breaks apart when it comes to junkrat too. like he can leave 2 mines and a trap indefinitely too and operate far away from them too, but does that mean his effective range is infinite just because of that? no. because he relies alot on his weapon, which doesn’t have long range effectiveness, for the hero to be effective i.e. killing, actually damaging meaningfully or shield breaking, etc.

her ttk on 200hp targets through her weapon needs either 2 orbs (1s charge up and 0.55s wind down per orb according to the wiki; 2.55s already for 2 full orbs) or about 2.6s or using primary fire whereas most heroes can kill sym in 1~2.5s while having at least 1 of the following (often 2) much better than sym:

  • mobility to engage and/or escape
  • sustain to let them live longer in their effective range
  • longer range to have more uptime in damaging

I mentioned 3s because realistically you won’t have 100% aim, and when it comes to orbs, it’d be longer if you miss more (which you likely will at range given how slow they are). I legit was not talking about tanks at all as targets.

I mean, it’s kinda funny yet also sad how you are arguing sym’s up to standard and did think I was talking about tanks for that TTK probably indicating how much faster and more reliable other heroes are at damaging compared to sym :thinking:

I like how you say “sym just can’t be allowed to w+m1 whenever” yet we look at many hitscans + hanzo who literally can just WASD to a position much safer than what sym’s primary demands, and they’re allowed to fire with effective higher dps and lower TTK, and having much higher consistency to land shots with higher burst compared to sym’s orbs.

and then we have heroes with dedicated mobility and/or sustain abilities to get them in their effective range and let them live long enough to do their job and then get out whilst still having lower ttk compared to sym.

all the while sym has low effective range, low mobility, no abilities for her to sustain her through her sustained damage and all her delays+charge ups. so if anything, it’s not my argument falling apart here…it’s yours because right now sym’s risk to achieve what other heroes can is far greater than other heroes.

if they wanted a distinction again many heroes wouldn’t be so all-purpose.

her viability for space control has been severely nerfed. they made her tp extremely static to the point where only bunkering would get the most use out of it, which also makes her place turrets more passively --> better for bunkering and also making her need to be dependent on her team to let her get in and out of her effective range i.e. the team to enable her to have any opportunity to do anything i.e. highly reliant on shield cover, yet they did an overhaul nerf shields to nerf bunkering and enforce teams to move around more.

teams moving around more means less commitment to an area --> sym’s structures won’t have teammates committing and using them --> sym’s structures will have much more down time because she has to move them around more often esp her tp.

unless the revert to old non-infinite tp where sym can adapt to situations a lot better, sym right now on live is basically sym1.5.

that was legit old non-infinite tp though. if you wanted to grab space, you tp to were you want, turret it up, then proceed with orbs where you would likely be in effective range.

e.g. route 66, if you want to aggressively claim the petrol station on attack, go through tunnel flank, tp in there, turret it up, that area’s yours and anyone that falls down will be snared and will be in your effective range and you’d be able to pincer attack them.

please explain. because unless you’re being team pocketed (which you’d be getting healing anyways and regen won’t be mattering much), sym doesn’t have an on-demand way to force not taking damage for >=3s then quickly get back in and somehow be able to catch back up on the hero down time. esp now with infinite tp making it so static and binary.

uuuh how is using an on demand shield to block damage and gap close as situational as sym who has nothing on demand to help with that? likewise how is having higher natural bulk as situational as sym who doesn’t? or how is any of that, esp when combined together, as situational as sym praying for someone to leave a stray shield and/or a to team pocket her or her guaranteed 12s hero down time tp or the enemy walking to her whilst ignoring her to gap close for her?

ashe’s coach gun legit is her escape option. bastion has legit self heal, armor and ironclad.

but even if I let you have all 3, how is 3 “so many hav[ing] similar issues”? :thinking: and since you were talking about offensive heroes and earlier you were saying there was a distinction between “offense” vs “defensive” heroes, that’s at best 2 depending on whether ashe is “offense” :thinking:

so

  • a flanker with high mobility (vertical and lateral), shield generating passive and 250hp,
  • a tank with high hp, shield, armour and vertical mobility
  • an actually midranged dwarf with armour, 250 total heal and can generate more self armour that you also admit shouldn’t be in this list
  • a flanker that unquestionably has high mobility, a reset button that functionally heals her unless played extremely poorly and still has an effective range longer than sym’s primary

are the “so many heroes” with low mobility, low effective range and low sustain…?

pretty sure them being easily destrucible and them needing to wait for people to come by (i.e. overall value over the course of the match is a low average and most of the time not contributing) devalues/nullifies that ._.

If the target is that far away, where predicting shots becomes too difficult, then suppression is forced. This is not that hard.

As for Genji, most players struggle with mechanical aim for Genji because his projectiles are small, inconsistent (unlike like FPS games with 3x shot bursts, Overwatch doesn’t keep them all lined up even if the target turns), and slow fire rate. For many Genji players, they typically like to hop and fan hoping that one hits and that their jumping buys enough time to produce enough damage for the kill. Most don’t play Genji ideally.

The second half of the video contains multiple examples of shots taken from 20 or greater ranges. And few examples of shots were the target isn’t unencumbered.

Non-infinite tp? Teleport still lasts forever, as of the current patch. Secondly, do you really want to compare Pharah’s flight to Teleporter?

Pharah was designed as a launch hero for Offense, their specialty (aside from mobility) was built to capture space. Symmetra is not built in the same way.

So you think a 100 health trap that delivers 80 damage once and only once per cooldown and roots for 3 seconds per cooldown (10 seconds) is superior to 3 sentries (total health 90) that last until destroyed and can, infinitely, each produce 40 damage per second and 20% slow per sentry?

Or do you feel that Concussion mine’s 25 health and 30-120 damage per target with a fairly decent knockback is superior to three sentries? While Junkrat’s mines can’t be understated with how flexible they are, I don’t think I need to remind you that Junkrat can only have one concussion mine out on the field at a time.

Putting in another comparison, with Torbjorn’s turret. A stationary target with 250 health and 14 damage per round (56 damage per second) is better than three sentries?

Because in all cases, there is one consistency here; they are conditional situational weapons that require the opponent to do something that warrants their response. So again, the argument about how Torb’s turret and Junkrat’s traps works just about as well as Symmetra’s. The biggest difference is build time, Junkrat can deploy his traps far faster than either Torb or Symmetra, and maybe we could look at improving that. But Junkrat isn’t a builder, Symmetra and Torb are.

Junkrat has functional suppression in the same way as Symmetra. He can litter narrow areas with frag grenades and deny space or at least threaten it in the same function that Symmetra can with her orbs. Junkrat’s biggest problem doing that, is consistency. The patterns and operations in which they can do it, differ (Symmetra needs line of sight, Junkrat does not), but it’s no less effective than the other. At closer distances, Junkrat becomes more reliable and consistent, but the same can be said of Symmetra (and well, everyone else).

The biggest difference between them, however, is the nature of their damage, Junkrat’s is burst-oriented, while Symmetra leans more on high-powered damage over time.

Damage over time usually is going to take longer, but not that much longer when compared to others.

McCree is mobile.

McCree has sustain

McCree has range.

Fair enough.

Hanzo similarly works and excels at area denial. He doesn’t have sentries, or teleporters to apply damage - even partially - like Symmetra. He either hits, or misses and sometimes he’ll critical hit. He has tools for prediction and flexibility, but he is also a different hero than Symmetra.

Yeah, we might as well make Symmetra have mobility to climb towers, walls, and platforms and have sentries, and deliver high powered damage through two sources on her main gun too. Oh and have the ability to lure targets into our effective range. Wait…

Well let’s compare…

Widowmaker

  • 1.4 charge time, up to 120 damage, up to 300 damage on critical. No max range.

Hanzo LMB

  • 1.2 second charge time, up to 125 damage, up to 250 damage on headshot, arcing projectile

Symmetra RMB

  • 1 second charge time, 120 (soon to be 140), no headshot, travels infinitely

For charged fire, the above looks pretty balanced especially when looking at other sources of damage. All of them can be fire from the same distance, one of them travels instantly. The second is one of the smallest projectiles in the game, the third is one of the largest projectiles in the game.

Maybe we should look at other beam weapons alternative fire?

Zarya

  • Particle Cannon
  • Damage range is 9 to 47 depending on charge
  • Splash radius is 2.5
  • 1 shot per second
  • Travel speed is 25 meters per second.
  • Arcing Projectile.

Mei

  • Endothermic Blaster
  • 75 damage
  • 1 shot per second
  • Travel speed is 100 meters per second

These numbers still look pretty balanced to me, especially when comparing other sources of damage on each hero.

A projectile that travels an infinite distance in one direction, delivers up to 120 damage in 2 meter wide radius and threatens that direction is low effective range.

Yes, everyone, including McCree and Bastion must move faster than Symmetra.

3 Sentries place at 8 meters apart, above, below and to the side of the target’s visual range is bad. Regenerative shield health is bad. LMB and RMB damage stacking is bad.

1 second charges are bad. It’s totally unfair that other heroes don’t have charged up attacks like Symmetra. Not Widowmaker, not Hanzo, not Doomfist, not Mei, and especially, ESPECIALLY not Baptiste.

You’re still relying a lot of hyperbole here, and comments like these really just destroy any argument you have by demeaning you.

Well, it’s pretty true that several heroes in the various classes can be more flexible and generalized, but there still many other heroes that excel more on Attack than on Defense and vice versa. Symmetra being one of those isn’t really unusual.

It’s hard to follow this… nightmare of a paragraph. Symmetra isn’t any more reliant on barriers as the next character. At the very least, she’ll demand less healing attention thanks to her regenerative shields against random suppressive fire.

Same argument can be used for Torbjorn and even Junkrat could argubly have similar issues.

This still doesn’t make any sense. Just because you have to press an extra button to destroy the teleporter, changes nothing about whether it’s infinite or not.

Method still works.

Again, method still works.

You asked

And was answered appropriately.

Play some games and learn where players travel on maps and set up there. This barely worth a point of argument.

Unless you main them. Obviously youre more likely to pick your main over all others. But I see where youre going. Just cuz you main D.va doesnt mean you should use her against a Zarya Doomfist 100% of the time

well
1: being forced to use suppression fire by kit limitations much sooner than others is my point about orbs having low effective range.

2: suppressive fire is far less valuable than actually landing shots that’d lead to a kill.

and
3: my point is sym reaches to the point of “predicting shots becomes too difficult” much sooner than other heroes.

Like I gave you a reference to at what ranges other heroes need to be for their projectiles to feel like sym’s orbs in 15m range.

and that is why they have low effective range. I’m not saying they need to be sniper fast, but at least be fast enough to be consistent in midrange (which I currently believe 30~35m/s would be around the spot to achieve that; i.e. making them more similar to pharah rockets).

if you’re talking about the ones on ilios well, the targets are literally in the narrow passageway for all of them. and my point of the video is showing pharah’s rockets are most consistent playing <=20m of the target, hence why most highlights are there, that’s why they operate most effectively in around that range, i.e. their effective range.

for sym that range is shorter because like I said earlier, orbs are much slower which reduces that range.

that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that leaving 3 structures somewhere indefinitely that spend most of their uptime idle collecting dust (i.e. not contributing) is not a valid argument in saying that a hero’s effective range being longer. esp when these structures are easily and quickly destroyed making them not damage long regardless of their consistency in landing shots or whatever cc they can get → contributes much less compared to the rest of her kit to being effective.

he does have more on demand mobility and more range… don’t see how he’s an exception esp when he’s the one that can theoretically kill sym in 1s… (inb4 you mention tp: I’ll get into that later).

he has range. long enough to do exactly what you’re saying heroes shouldn’t be allowed to do when talking about sym (double standard?).

I’m not saying sym should w+m1 everywhere, but again, at least make her orbs consistent at midrange so she has something reasonable to contribute value with during her down time and not be so dependent on getting into <=15m without the means in her kit to get there nor stay there long enough.

OK now to talk about TP. The first bit wasn’t me saying current tp is finite, but rather I was saying old 3.0 tp (the non infinite one) had the cast frequency to actually let sym go to various places when needed. currently it’s extremely static and binary.

effective down time with old 3.0 tp = 12s - min{time alive, time spent using it} → at most 12s if instantly destroyed by bug, 2s if left unattended. most often you’d use it for at least 6s

effective down time with infinite tp = 12s + time not being used whilst active.

And tp down time is pretty much sym’s hero down time because it is her only way in her kit to get in and out of her effective range.

with old tp, you get more effective up time with tp, you get liquidity to use it for various purposes due to higher cast frequency e.g. you may use it to get yourself or teammates highground for poking and then when the actual fight starts you can have it back to use in the actual fight whether to duel, escape, or whatever.

current live infinite tp is just stuck in 1 spot for 1 purpose and more binary, i.e.
if you destroy it quickly because short use you’re on hero down time sooner, you’re missing out on the rest of the 10s of tp uptime that offers you options in battle e.g.

here I initially just wanted to tp engage the sym, if I destroyed it then because I was done with sym or destroyed it because I really only placed it down to get close, I would be stripped of the option to deal with reaper the way I did.

if I keep tp up my next cast will be delayed by my uptime and my tp is stuck in whatever position, whatever purpose it was placed for until I get my next cast. in the example above I would get my tp 6s later if I had infinite tp. if I placed tp down for say high ground and left it up for a really long period of time, I inherently can’t do other things like:

  • engaging the enemy in my effective range when I want,
  • escaping a threat unless I root myself to tp
  • claim a different area
  • taxi a teammate to somewhere
  • block auto aim with tp
  • flank
  • mind trick enemies

because tp will be stuck in that position and purpose of providing high ground and sym will be forced to play like she’s on down time during that unless the team pockets her to let her be in effective range to do something.

in other words, infinite tp hard limits room for the sym player to optimise tp and restricts whatever she can use it for because of how excessively costly the cd mechanic is.

old 3.0 tp wasn’t excessive in benefits to sym either because we already know from the >1yr we had it that it wasn’t.

you completely overlooked my 1st point about effective range for orbs (i.e. consistency in landing them) and the inconsistency in value of turrets due to how easily and quickly they are destroyed. and when looking at other heroes you also overlook that and the fact that both zarya and mei have much more sustain than sym to actually support their weapons.

if sym’s primary and orbs were on a tank built with enough sustain to operate them at their lower range, then all good. but sym isn’t a tank, she’s a squishy, and a really fragile squishy one. that’s the problem. that’s why we have people asking for more range or more sustain or a bit of both.

it’s very apparent if you look at the pattern in your examples/comparison choices: either they’re snipers with long range whilst squishy with lower mobility or they’re high sustain heroes to operate in that lower effective range with lower mobility.

yikes, I asked “low mobility, low effective range AND low sustain”. like a lot of your arguments, you’re missing a lot of context. here’s the context of what I asked

“them” refering to heroes with low mobility.
do I need to like draw a venn diagram explaining what a logical AND does? your examples weren’t valid as they didn’t meet the criteria nor where they “many” in the first place. Hence my point about sym not being up to standard.

easily destroyed once found, most heroes have a mobility ability or sustain ability to get out of their range to destroy them from safety or even just not go through and shoot sym down from afar. that’s not equivalent to effective range nor sustain.

would be useful if sym had a tp that had the cast frequency to let sym deploy it on demand and if it triggered upon her interacting with tp to let her have a quick in and out to even have a chance of utilising it without taking too much of her already limited hero uptime.

if only she could get in their effective range on demand :thinking: oh wait they took that away with infinite tp.

one’s mobility and sustain doesn’t synergise with their weapon’s effective range, delays and dps/burst, the others do. that’s my point :man_shrugging:

again, the point is that turrets are often not contributing (regardless of whether you put it up somewhere valuable) for most of their uptime and are both easily and quickly destroyed irrespective of how well you place them in that area (overall low contribution) to justify the argument “oh sym actually has a really long effective range just because turrets can be placed further”.

she contributes most and most effectively by combining tp, her weapon and turrets TOGETHER. with her weapon being effective in <=15m, you can’t just isolate turrets or just isolate 1 aspect of orbs (not having falloff) and then just say “oh sym’s effective range is infinite”.

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