Different tank split engage and fight

General Discussion
1

So far most people split tanks to main tank and off tank

Some look at it as space makers vs utilities.
some look at it as shield tanks vs other protection ways.

Today I want to present to you a different split I had in mind.
engage tank and fight tank.

Engage tanks are the tanks their protection is most effective in order to get to a space. these tanks are focused most on the engagement and less on the fight itself.
Reinhardt,D.va,Orisa,Hammond

Fight tanks- these tanks protection is most effective while in the middle of the fight.
Their kit is less effective for protecting while engaging but really good when the teams fight each other.
Zarya,Roadhog,Winston,Sigma

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2

That… actually makes sense. Holy cow…

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3

There’s a reason why most people refer to Tanks by “Off-Tanks” or “Main Tanks” . It’s because of their ability to hold the front-line and/or be the center of a fight. Mains can hold the front very easily, Off-Tanks usually provide better backup - but can rotate to the position to make a play.

As for the split of Fight vs Engagement Tanks. You could list all 8 Tanks in both categories.

Engagement

  1. Zarya Bubbles Rein as he Charges
  2. Hog Hooks a target out of position
  3. Winston sneaks into the enemy backline and drops a bubble
  4. Sigma can just walk forward and place a shield/hold grasp

Fight

  1. Reinhardt has a giant shield and a big hammer to control space
  2. D.Va can rush-down a support and squelch them
  3. Orisa can pop Fortify when the shield goes down and rotate
  4. Hammond - CC galore with a shield to prevent ult charge gain & machine guns
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4

Never said this split is not good.
Just gave another way to look at things.
just like you can look at support heroes by
healing vs utility
single target vs multi target
or
defensive ult vs offensive ult

Much worse option.
If rein is gonna charge alone with a brawl comp he’s just gonna die after 2 seconds since he’s in the middle of enemy lines alone.
All the point of bubble is to protect from all directions meaning it’s better for a mess around you.
using it as a 2nd shield is just a worse option.

For that you need to get close.
and most times it’s hard or even impossible if they run shields.
but once the enemies are fighting you face to face you can hook targets much easier and get more value.
Not to mention team fight=more chances for damaged enemies meaning hook+shoot combo is more likely to happen.

Not to mantion a lot of times if you don’t kill a target you’ve hooked you used one of your more important abilities and the hooked player’s team members can heal or protect him immidiatly.

You’re inside the enemy lines…
you’re not engaging you’re also inside the fight.
Similar to Zarya- round bubble for protection from all directions so even as a normal shield it’s worse

And then what?
he got much weaker shield.
if you’re gonna use it as an engement tool it’s going to brake really soon. and your grasp is nice but not something too effecive if you’re pushing in.
enemies are more likely to stop shooting at you when they see you use the ability.
on the other hand in the middle of the fight you’re gonna get much more value from the extra hp.
Your shield is much better for blocking off angels and back liners so you can get easier time killing the enemies without them getting extra damage or healing while you attack.
outside of team fight they can just move. but in the middle of team fight it can be dangerous for them and so the shield gets much much more value…

Hammer is not a protection.
it’s an offensive tool that helps make space but his protection comes from pushing in with the shield.
while the team fight started you’re most likely gonna use the hammer more since it’s easier to get peeks and make space with it.
not to metion his shield has limited hp and he can’t do anything while it’s on, hinting the fact rein should be used for pushing with the shield and while close uting the rest of his kit to make the space.

Like Reinhardt you can’t attack while using shield and so you’re gonna get the most value out of defense matrix by using it to come close and then the rest of your kit to attack.
once again the protection is there for coming closer not for surviving a fight.
it can be used as well for blocking random damage in the fight but short duration with no benefits.

All the point of halt and her primary is making sure enemies DON’T come closer.
fortify helps her but a good Orisa will do whatever she can not to get into a close range fight.
You have tools to help her but it’s not the wanted situation for her.

interruption makes a clearer path for your team. ofcourse adaptive shield helps in a fight but you gain more impact from it the more players there are, not from popping it out of no where in the fight.
also interruption works the best the closer the players are- in team fight you can mess the aim of both your team members and the enemy because of the chaos and you can’t do a lot of damage…Hammond is more bursty for a combo engagement less team fight winner.

The fight a hero can do something doesn’t mean it’s the best place for it to do and the only thing it should do.
Reaper can kill a Pharah from range if he shoots enough, but it doesn’t mean that’s what his main focus should be about…
Same here- the abilities can be impactful for other uses as well but their primary goal and the best place for them to be used are in either the middle of the team fight or in the engement.
sure some abilities can work well on the other condition as well but in much less impactful or seccesfull way…

Oh and just for explaining the benefit part- if Sigma for example gets extra health in the team fight.
it’s not only extra health but also easier time for support to heal him, letting them heal other heroes as well in that important part of the game.
so it’s not only bonus hp but also less job for healers/easier time for sigma to get back to higher health- not to mention the chaos makes it easier for him to get more damaged swallowed.

So overall abilities with benefits give more impact in the middle of the fight by not only providing protection but also getting more use from the chaos and helping the rest of your team with resources.

5

This was pretty much the primary engagement method for Deathball. ???

Sorry. I honestly didn’t read all of this - after your first example of why I was wrong I just figure the rest of it is trying to argue against whatever it was I said. I’m too tired and I’m not really feeling like doing a bunch of back and forth on this topic that’s mostly just subjective views on how to define a hero’s “split” or sub-role.

What’s the point of looking at the Tanks through this field of view though?

6

Sounds interesting, but seems like an “Enemy-Effort Denial Tank” and a “Damage Inclined Tank” classification, although not so much exclusively.

While Barriers, DM, Bubbles, Dmg resistance are very denial abilities
CC and mobility are more hybrid to set up kills or deny value too.

7

Charging in?!
I never saw a high rank players use this…
You send your rein alone to the enemies backline without any way for you to help.
this split is just instant death for Reinhardt if you can’t follow up.
Either way it’s still not an engement tool since the engement was Reinhardt.
you protected him but the engement was not done by your bubbles but rather by the charge.
you enabled the charge to happen successfully but that’s about it.

fair enough. feel well.

In the current state of the game with 8 tanks and 3 main play-styles not much…
Since now it’s more important to just go by the playstyle in order to get value.
But it can be useful for a bigger number of tanks to choose which one will be more effective…
If 2 tanks have similar play-style and similar purpose (countering snipers for example) then it can be impactful.
But overall the concept is more for sharing the idea and talking about it more fun than use.

Interesting concept. I would like to hear more about it if it’s fine with you.

If I understood correctly it’s more offensive protection vs defensive protection?
protecting by denying the damage vs protecting by denying the enemy (killing it, moving it or stunning him) or avoiding it?

8

What? No…

Deathball runs a Lucio to speedboost the team into engagements - so Rein hits like a freight train protected by the Zarya bubbble but the team is following in just a second later to help him clean up. I just mentioned Rein as the prime example of a bubbled engagement though - you can pretty much bubble anyone else who can get in an deal some serious damage.

Fair.

9

Well, since OW is a game of attrition between mechanisms to secure kills and mechanisms to deny kills (or to survive), I always thought about Tanks as being damage-dealers/supports hybrids.

But clearly some tanks are more about defensive protection, which denies enemy-efforts to secure kills while others offer less protection, but have more effective damage potential to be applied.

I wasn’t thinking about offensive protection, like denying the enemy by fast killing them, not in this direction, sure this is a true statement about what could happen, but I was thinking just more like applying aggression of their own to secure kills (not in a protective way, but I get that you saw it as a hybrid thing) or offering hybrid utilities (such as CC and Mobility) more intended to set up kills for the team than to offer protection (or to deny the enemy-effort of applying damage), you know?

10

Either way the bubble is still not a great engagement tool since it last only 2 seconds (unlike D.va Zarya doesn’t have a mobility tool) and has only 200hp making it easy to destroy.
Personally I didn’t see any good engagement that started with a dps with a bubble unless it has ult.
It also makes more sense for the playstyle to be a fight tool.
Zarya is slow and so an engagement tool for brawlers should be something that lasts long in order to let them get closer from spawn to the enemies.
Rein’s shield does a really good job doing so.

I’m not saying you can’t use bubble in some cases to engage.
but if you bubble someone else, aren’t you just enabling their push?
The bubble helps but it’s not Zarya who pushed in with the bubble.
it’s someone else

Interesting look at things.
Support “fix” hp, so the protection is similar in a way they both deny damage with by canceling it or fixing what’s already done
and space making is dealing damage like dps but more for space and less for the kills.
I like it.

Might work, I’m just afraid that tanks will steal the focus from dps and support if they do the same thing but with more hp.
I think tanks should be more punishers than kill securers.
That’s also why a lot of people see Mei & Bastion as mini-tanks because they can punish really well (although they’re not that good at making space or protecting…)

If you give rein his space without fighting you can get away without any damage.
dps and support on the other hand can chase you down and kill you really well, do damage to you where ever you are.
If to put it in a more specific title

divers punish staying away
brawlers punish standing your ground.
stationary punish taking your time coming closer (moving slow).
flankers punish slow reaction and lack of awareness.
kiters punish close range
trappers punish moving in a specific path.

Maybe it’s just my interpretation of the situation.
I just don’t think tanks should do what dps do or support do while being tanks.
That’s what left us with goats earlier so it’s path they should avoid to keep each role unique.

11

See, you look at tanks with the “space making” in your mind.
But I think it is somehow a vague description of their purpose, what is “space making”?

Well, once I was trying to find a simple definition for it and I thought about how Tanks are the “BOBs” of their teams.

They enter a certain space being able to resist a lot of damage, but also applying damage of their own. That became my simple definition of space making.

If the tank can’t resist damage, he’s not a tank, but also if the tank can’t apply damage, he is not a threat and won’t protect (in the case of PvP games).

How you do it is what makes tanks different from each other and I just though about how some tanks can resist more damage for their team than apply high damage, while others resist less for their team, more on their own, but applying more of a damage threat as a trade-off.

The real question in my mind was how much TEAM protective tanks should be rather than just being damage resistant on their SINGULAR body.

But IMHO my simple definition served the purpose to explain “space making” generically, from Hog to Rein, for me at least.

What do you think about what “space making” is?

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First of all I liked your definitions.

Second, If I were to define space making i would go with…
The ability to get new space and/or protect existing space.

Tanks first of all need to reach the space they want, and then stand their ground using both damage and protection.
the protection combined with their high hp makes it harder to force them back, and their damage acts as an extra punishment, if you don’t respect their space you will die. but if you do you’re not gonna get harmed.

Winston for example choose space with jump pack, drop bubble to cancel the impact of enemies. and then use his primary to force anything inside the range of the bubble and bit further to get away.
If Winston will try to chase a target he’s most likely gonna die without the bubble since his range is so short and his body is big.

While most tanks claim new space and protect it, some just want to keep the space for themselves. like Orisa and Hog that prefer to keep as much space as they can.

I see the damage tanks do more for punishing resistance in their domain.
B.O.B is an interesting concept similar to charge- you force enemies to move or die. But after it hits a team member or a wall he becomes a normal dps with high hp.

I believe tanks protection is something pretty important since you don’t only make space for yourself but for your own team as well.

I would say a lot of this split depends on synergy.
Bastion for example does the most damage in the game, so a team with the hero never lack damage.
But what he got in damage he lacks in survive ability.
So a protective tank is more important.

I do think protection is something every tank needs in order to split the dps role from the tank role.
but the protection can be higher or lower depends on the amount of things it block, how good it is and overall how much protection the play-style requires.

So if to conclude my definition for a tank.

  • High hp
  • Some sort of protection: can be something strong as a shield or weak as damage resistance but there’s should be some sort of protection
  • The ability to get new space or keep old space safe.

all 3 (although part I can combined with 2) combined making a hero that acts like a wall.
letting your team get near it and get the right place for them to get easier kills.
tanks enable your team to get to the right position for them to get as much value as they can from their kit.

So in a way another way to look at off tanks and main tanks is creating new space vs keeping the space you’ve already got.

Just want to put more emphasis on the damage.
Rein,Zarya,Hog,Sigma can’t do anything if the target is too far.
Winston,D.va,Hammond can’t do much if the target is close but not close enough.
Orisa can’t do much if the target is too close.

Each of them use the damage to punish enemies that came to the range they try to claim/protect.

Because of that I don’t think tanks should have the potential to instantly kill (in time, not abilities or damage. A tank can still get a kill using 1 ability if it takes time to use it and do it like Hammond’s combo or Rein’s charge)
Securing kills is the job of dps.
Tanks are just there to punish.

13

I mean. Really to me it’s “Anchor Tank” and “Other Tanks”.

Since it’s not like anybody ever had a problem with Winston + AnchorTank.

14

I get that Hog can punish enemies, but He is not protective, neither is Ball, how do you explain that they are tanks and not normal dps with just high hp?

15

They do protect but in a weirder way.
usually when you think of protection you think about letting the enemy do what ever he wants but not letting that touch your team members.
for hammond and hog it doesn’t work like that.
Roadhog is much more about interruption- instead of trying to block Pharah’s barrage he use hook to get her out of it.
He get high protection from stopping an enemy from doing something before it does it.

his 2nd protection is body blocking.
I know it’s much less effective but if you force enemies to focus you with hook and then survive between 900 to 1,200 hp you act as a pretty good protection without actually blocking anything with a different ability.

The best hero to see this against in my opinion is Doomfist.
Bubble can work fine to protect a target but you don’t really know who he’s gonna charge into.
so you just cancel his charge entierly.

Hammond works in a similar way but more divey.
dive is much more about mobility so no need to stop every ability entierly.
he boops into enemies making them miss abilities and misposition.
When you focus a support and enemy hook is about to hook you, the small boop can make a massive difference.
similar to hook you’ve got grapple+pile drive to force enemies to focus you.
He also got his adaptive shield to act as a shield himself.
If hog is better for close-medium range.
Hammond is all about the medium-long range.
Widow’s slow shots, Roadhog hook,Ashe dynomite, Ana’s nade/sleep,Sigma’s rock.
These are all things he can mess up with his swing.
Ofcourse he’s weak to stuns as well since without moving he’s pretty vurnable.
But overall every enemy that requires a bit of aim Hammond is sure to mess it up.
Also similar to hook you can seperate parts of the enemy team from the team giving your team members easy target to follow up on instead of risking their life in a 6v6.